When are we gonna see the trade offs for Firebrands and Dragonhunters????

otto.5684 · March 2, 2020

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:-500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :# ;)

Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

It is 250 in PvE. And it does not factor at all in sPvP since quickness uptime is none existent.

Btw, if FB uses core virtues instead of tomes, the effect will be close to zero. The issues in sPvP are concentrated in symbols, axe and mantra of truth. Buffing or nerfing tomes is not going to do much.

Yes but the discussion about trade-offs is more relevant for competitive play. For WvW? In a Zerg? Going to have that quickness.

Again, the trade offs do exist and always did for FB. Performance is a different issue. At PoF release, FB was under performing. Then It was significantly over performing, as support for a while and none existent as dps. It was a bit over performing before last balance patch, as support dps hybrid. And currently is significantly out performing In the same role. These are performance issues, mostly due to dev tardiness and oversight. It has little to do with class design issues. And evident by fluctuation in performance (In PvE too) the issues have to do with balance not design.

And that is the point. This thread premise is out right false. It would be much more useful to list the actual issue and how to address them. There were a couple of good thread in sPvP discussing the issues. Also, while not directly implied, this section of the forums, tend to generally discuss PvE. everything discussed here, having value or not, is pretty much null.

Substance E.4852 · March 2, 2020

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@Kodama.6453 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.
A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.
It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What

would

be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).Stronger individual burns but fewer stacks.

FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

Same is true for engies and holos, either with kits or forge, and that is not considered a trade off.

If you think DH works with condi GL to you buddy.Have you not seen the Burn DH build?The comparison with engi is... dumb. In the case of engi the kit is a different weapon, and is optional. The comparison is between instant cast core virtues and tomes. One is instant cast, the other requires cast to equip them and then casting again to get benefits. If you think this is not a trade off, you have an understanding issue. Performance is a different matter.

The comparison to another equipable weapon set of skills is fairly spot on.

Druid loses a massive chunk of their pet's health and damage to access a new espec skill bar

There's 0 reason Guardian should get a pass other than people not wanting their favorite class to join the special table with the rest of us

draxynnic.3719 · March 4, 2020

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@"Elmo Benchwarmer.3025" said:-500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :# ;)

Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

Toughness drop while a tome is equipped would make a lot of sense - somebody using a tome (even in the form of floating magical pages) is probably not going to be able to defend themselves as effectively as someone wielding regular weapons. If that's problematic for raids, it could be a straight "take X% more damage" (are there any raid setups using a firebrand as main tank at the moment?). Making "target the firebrand!" a more viable tactic would certainly be appropriate.

I'd probably roll this into Purity of Word rather than Imbued Haste, though. I'd also say that this is a direct nerf to tomes rather than a tradeoff - which is pretty much what I've been saying all along. Guardian elite specialisations already have a tradeoff - if they're overperforming, this is a separate issue that can be resolved through direct nerfs.

(Honestly, I like this one. It directly addresses the core problem of the Firebrand being able to keep everyone else up while also being tough as nails itself.)

@bigo.9037 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Kodama.6453 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@otto.5684 said:This is only true for courage.

It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are

generally

better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd

expect

a strong result.

@Kodama.6453 said:
@"Revolution.5409" said:Tomes are the real problem.I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

Except that attunements and kits have, if anything,

shorter

cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is

there.

While alot of what you say here makes sense, I would like you to consider one more thing: Anet has already shown that they are willing to install more than 1 trade off if the power level calls for it.

I am talking about the scrapper. Scrapper has already a trade off by giving up his elite tool belt skill to get access to the Function Gyro on F5. When they reworked scrapper, they installed

another

trade off into the scrapper trait line, since chosing it will now reduce your vitality by 180, which means that scrapper will have 1800 less HP than an engineer.

Sure, but let's tell the whole story - the vitality reduction came alongside ArenaNet deciding to give Scrapper a playstyle based on constantly renewing barrier as they fight, and the purpose of the health reduction was to keep their durability at a reasonable level even with the barrier. Now, it's not a move I particularly agree with, but the tradeoff for the sake of a tradeoff was the F5 - the vitality reduction came because they decided to give the scrapper something else, and that needed a balancing factor.

Even putting that aside, you're still looking at the scrapper having two relatively light tradeoffs, while the "remove weaponswap" proposal would be the heaviest tradeoff in the game, particularly since guardian weapons aren't designed to be non-weaponswap weapons... and that would be on an elite specialisation which

already has a tradeoff

.

And that's the bottom line, really - people are behaving like it doesn't have a tradeoff at all, when it

does.

If Firebrand is still too strong in the current meta, the answer is to nerf the relevant skills directly.

You're writing very long, detailed post trying to defend an obviously OP spec in spvp and WvW. Sad. But what's even more sad, is that ranger will probably be nerfed first while braindead fb mains will spam blinds aegis stab condi cleanse and dazes for days while thinking they are amazing players. Very sad indeed.

Nice ad hominem. I'd show you my PvP piechart, but the new forums don't seem to like images hosted on Google Drive.

Suffice it to say that for the past two seasons I've mostly been playing revenant, and I've been keeping an eye open for a ranger or warrior build I enjoy so I can collect the full set of profession champion titles. There is a significant blue portion in there, to be sure, but most of it was pre-HoT - when I talk about what can be done with core virtues, I'm speaking from experience. Firebrand could be boonsmited (oh, the irony) out of competitive modes altogether and it'd be no skin off my nose. Heck, it would be nice to stop seeing "they have a FB and we don't, well, this is probably going to suck" matches.

But I don't want to see firebrand get ruined in every mode through some heavy-handed "tradeoff", where some of the suggestions seem to be motivated by sour grapes, on a profession which has always had a tradeoff to the elite specs. Now, some of the other tradeoffs have definitely been harsher than they need to be (I sense this thread has mostly been inspired by the recent soulbeast tradeoff, but what mesmers received... ouch), but they at least started from a point where there genuinely was no tradeoff apart from the opportunity cost of a core traitline. Guardians and necromancers have had a tradeoff from the beginning.

MyPuppy.8970 · March 4, 2020

I think everyone agrees to remove FB's weapon swap and make tomes count as weapon swap. Let's do that. Balancing tomes comes next.

LucianTheAngelic.7054 · March 4, 2020

@MyPuppy.8970 said:I think everyone agrees to remove FB's weapon swap and make tomes count as weapon swap. Let's do that. Balancing tomes comes next.

I don’t agree with that so you can back off with that “everyone” shit.

Lonewolf Kai.3682 · March 4, 2020

@Substance E.4852 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@otto.5684 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@Kodama.6453 said:
@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.
A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.
It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.