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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@"bluberblasen.9684" said:

So you play Ele or Mesmer?

80% core ele 20 % weaver and i have zero problems with any kind of thief ( or other classes )wanted only an answer what the " REAL " counter to stealth should be.

Ele and Mesmer are the only ones without a skill or trait available inherently to reveal a player in stealth.

Every other has one. Not that they are all useful...

I play glass necro. I also do not have a problem playing against thief’s.

I think though, you stated what the REAL counter to thief is.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Kronan.6712 said:Hello everyone,

And thank you for this thread @"Gondolph.7201" :) It is just a personal point of view, but I do not completely agree about nerfing the thief. Before the "Unbalanced patch" of February 25, same a pretty bad Warrior was able to kill condi thiefs:
And I am not sure that the Warrior is the best to clean condi.So, for me the issue come from the "Unbalanced patch".

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 rights, but not all the thiefs can play as XxkazuyaxXX the master of thieves.

Didnt know Sindrender also went by XxkazuyaxXX

Yes sorry @Bigpapasmurf.5623 master of thieves was really exaggerated.

I currently run the condi rifle build (SB for getaways or to stun res's) however this gave me an idea. How do you think the build would be impacted if you used Binding Shadows over Blinding Powder?

Swapped my SB for P/D and WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Much Nastier.

Yup. Condi DE with P/D built for torment duration is really quite nasty atm. Pretty fun to hunt condi mirages with it.

-Title is misunderstood-take a look at this .....too painful to watch (see>NCsoft's Earnings Report as result)

-this is the impact and effect Thief Profession has on potential-new players who enters wvw-tragic

'you lose more often than you win'

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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!…But they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

Not all commanders/zergs act the same way.

With the commanders and zergs, that I usually run with, it is the standard, that we do not chase single players/roamers and that we just ignore them and go around them and do not attack. And if some zerglings try to chase roamers, they are told by the commander and other players, not to do this. Unless of course, the roamers attack first and try to pick players from the zerg, then the zerg defends itself.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@hypehype.9047 said:I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

Please post your build(s). ;)

lol nothing special.

full zerkdead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!…But they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

Not all commanders/zergs act the same way.

With the commanders and zergs, that I usually run with, it is the standard, that we do not chase single players/roamers and that we just ignore them and go around them and do not attack. And if some zerglings try to chase roamers, they are told by the commander and other players, not to do this. Unless of course, the roamers attack first and try to pick players from the zerg, then the zerg defends itself.

True, most coms I know wont order guys to chase solo people, even if it's a camp if the com has other priorities, like an upgraded tower/keep how ever if that guy attempts to attack the backline then its game on. Coms know not to muck about with enemy roamers who are doing their own thing because they know if they do, them roamers will chase the zerg tail, and its normally 3-7+ people and not just 1. Zerg tail will soon be demolished and its normally necros and eles that's gone.

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Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got shit while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).
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IMHO ruin is the wrong word but I can't help but feel that it is a geniuenly unfun profession to deal with: stealth, high evade uptime, teleportation, very few telegraphs, a resource system that allows multiple use of the same ability. It's basically everything you don't want to deal with (and yes I'm aware not every Thief build can do all of that at once, but the elements are there).

That said, there's definitely a place for the profession archetype and even if it isn't my cup of tea I can see the appeal.

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@hypehype.9047 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@hypehype.9047 said:I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

Please post your build(s). ;)

lol nothing special.

full zerkdead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

Q:Is it unblockable and in low CD??

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@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:

  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough, fails to address the only problem there is with stealth. Out-of-combat stealth.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@hypehype.9047 said:I stopped crying on the fourms and just started to play the abused builds, being able to hit someone from 1500m with 7k damage and stealth is fun trolling.

Please post your build(s). ;)

lol nothing special.

full zerkdead eye/critical strike and deadly arts.

the key is to hit the enemy with dead eyes mark early so you can build malice go into stealth and hit your 1 attack to release death's judgment which is basically a back stab you can shoot from 1500m away.

Q:Is it unblockable and in low CD??

DJ is not unblockable. And its a stealth attack, so you get to retry every 3 seconds normally, less if you burn a charge of Shadow Meld. But honestly, thats not worth it, because against a decent player, DJ never hits. Its basically irrelevant as anything other than a skill that says "remove 1 defensive resource from your opponent".

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and crap is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

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@Crackmonster.2790 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

Permastealth is literally the only issue with stealth. In-combat stealth is already bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything but a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to keep anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief wishes it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (literally cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma) and stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That totally sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

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@Crackmonster.2790 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

We'd be playing most other mmos out there if that's what we wanted.

A lot of stealth doesn't equate to "permastealth", it just means using a stealth attack, which has to be used a lot because they just don't hit all that hard for a signature skill. You could have just suggested putting a cap on all types of stealth stack duration in combat to about 4 seconds, but you're suggesting keeping "permastealth" to allow easy Malicious backstabs instead of active engaged short duration stealth for Stealth Attacks that are either weak or predicted by position and duration.

I'm confused, are you advocating for or against the thief class? People in thief forums aren't very stealth heavy to being with and would prefer an engaged fight over running around in stealth not doing anything, maybe ask this question in the thief forum and get some feedback and maybe they can get a better understanding of what you're suggesting.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

Permastealth
is literally the only issue with stealth
. In-combat stealth is
already
bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything
but
a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to
keep
anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief
wishes
it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (
literally
cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma)
and
stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That
totally
sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a fucking misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

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@Crackmonster.2790 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

Permastealth
is literally the only issue with stealth
. In-combat stealth is
already
bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything
but
a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to
keep
anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief
wishes
it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (
literally
cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma)
and
stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That
totally
sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the entire fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you literally dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be buffed.

Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

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@"Kontrolle.3514" said:they are totally out of control. Its like playing a mmo against cheaters but in this game the "cheat" is the game mechanic.

that's exactly how i've seen it since the beginning of gw. being able to become invisible all the time and teleport around feels totally like legal cheating... worst class mechanics of all time.so i generally don't play against them, unless the players are too stupid for their builds they copied from the internet...

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

Permastealth
is literally the only issue with stealth
. In-combat stealth is
already
bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything
but
a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to
keep
anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief
wishes
it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (
literally
cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma)
and
stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That
totally
sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the
entire
fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you
literally
dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be
buffed
.

Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

It's funny to listen to people defending overpowered stuff - they always wanna make it look like nah it's aint nothing much. Which is what you do for every point. Just deny it. Look at your wall of complication for attempted denial.

Also i don't quite think you understand the meaning of logic. I'll give you one example how you completely defy logic in name of logic. I said:

" Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc."

To which you later after going on a denial rant try to state after ironically bashing me talking about logics:

"Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights."

This is false. The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference. Which is a plain falsehood, therefore your deductions are not based on logic at all and do in fact defy logic. You have no idea how much your wall of denial is full of illogical holes that i am not in the mood to waste time trying to answer because i already know after you will deny everything, forget all that was said, and state more fallacy. The only thing somewhat truthful(but a strawman as completely irrelevant here) depends what you mean a fair fight - if a fair fight is 2 dudes seeing each other coming and charging into each other then no, that won't be in theefs favor - because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar which is what makes that point irrelevant, a strawman, which you then follow up with another falsehood. Etc etc.

Have fun in your world of denial, theef.

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@Crackmonster.2790 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Redesign Theef:

Theef can keep good stealth but under certain conditions:
  • Damage must not be burst type, but ramp up type. Nothing is more toxic than super burst stealth builds.
  • Theef cannot stealth for 4-5s after getting hit or hitting a target. They should not be able to freely engage, unload, disappear all over. When they commit, it must be a fight.
  • Above can only be broken by 1-2 cooldowns that allows stealth at anytime and doesn't do damage like cc abilities now.
  • All other forms of more reliable stealth should not be useable while in active combat.
  • Theef ways to avoidance, evade etc as well as mobility needs to get toned drastically down, not just a little bit. It is out of hand. I am not sure if it's just daredevil or what but they have SO much and other classes like mesmer got nerfed into the ground for having similar and now don't got kitten while theef immune for days and tralalaing.
  • Since thief has stealth and good evades, it should not be heavy on CC/Stability/Stunbreak (i have no clue if this is case).

So basically, make in-combat stealth not just useless but non-existent, but then also nerf thieves (already low) 1v1 capabilities in exchange for the stealth. That they cant use. What? I mean your suggestion basically boils down to "make thief so useless that picking it in any PvP gamemode should be reason enough for a ban". It also, ironically enough,
fails to address the only problem there is with stealth
. Out-of-combat stealth.

Do you have a problem with any point, or do you just attempt to say "no don't nerf anything"?

What is left after what i suggest is still a thief who got permastealth, only stealth can't just be applied during combat freely but like most other mmos out there needs a cooldown to activate when in combat. Extreme bursty is a not good design to fit on stealth because it becomes toxic, is that a point you got issue with?

It follows logically that a class who should have above average avoidances + stealth, have to have at least not as good sum of cc, stability, stunbreak as other classes who does not have those tools.

Also, i tell you now theef at least daredevil amount of evading and kitten is way out of line, other classes like mesmer got that nerfed several times over and over, you won't be able to come with your little "ohhhh no please no pleeeasse no we will be weak" arguments, you will pay the price eventually.

I have a problem with all of your points because they are poorly thought out, to say the least.

Permastealth
is literally the only issue with stealth
. In-combat stealth is
already
bad. There is a reason thieves avoid in-combat stealth like the plague, instead trying to drop out of stealth ASAP if theyre actively fighting someone. Out of combat stealth is whats a problem. Your suggestion to that is to leave out of combat stealth alone, and nerf in-combat stealth. Basically, youre removing thief as anything
but
a cheesy stealth oneshot build. When your goal should be to
keep
anything but the cheesy stealth oneshot builds.

First of all, no point mentioning stealth here. Stealth is irrelevant to in-combat discussion, and that is all in-combat discussion. Second thief
wishes
it had above average avoidances. Maybe then it wouldnt be a class so bad at 1v1ing its defining characteristic is never picking a fair fight, and running away from the many fights they cant win. Thief also is worse at CC (Only DE has CC that lasts more than 1 second), stability (
literally
cant access stability other than by stealing it or from Consume Plasma)
and
stunbreaks (long cooldowns, and one of their only 2 good stunbreaks happens to also be one of their only 2 good condi cleanses, and the class struggles with condi as is).

Yeah, so out of line that the best build doesnt even use Daredevil, and the only build that does, literally does so only to not lose instantly to condis. And yeah, Daredevils evading is totally out of line, what with their 1 extra dodge the entire fight while otherwise having no extra sources of dodge. And both of the weaponsets that have an additional evade skill effectively have 2 charges with a 10 second cooldown. That
totally
sounds out of line and not like something Warrior, Mesmer, Weaver, Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant and Ranger can only laugh at.

Did you just try to shove it all under the rug and making the 3 dodge devil as to be an irrelevant evader? And claim this is only way against condis? Try playing others classes man really. Other classes got their advantages nerfed down and down, and theef still got absolutely insane away to stay safe., disengage and spamable mobility. They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default. They will take nerfs in the long run mark my words. Let's say you are right, and it's the only way to deal with condis(what a kitten misdirection from the truth that evades are insane), then they should still nerf the evasion and give a meaningful way to coutner condis.

And what are you trying to say about stability etc? I said it should be so but that i didn't know if it was already so. It is so? good, but you make 0 point there.

Other games have shown, permastealth out of combat is okay. The reason i don't suggest to remove it is because i want theef to have something it can do, to be different in a way. Not to be more of the same. You can say a theef should be weaker in a fight than other classes, because it has the power of being able to choose exactly when to engage and without that it will not be balanced. This is logical fact. You want them to have both stealth plus equal to others in combat? Now it's unfair, fight just as well but can walk around invisible. Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc. It should be just slightly weaker, not much and so little that player skill means far more than the small difference. Or to play from range and be a pestilence and run away when someone focus it. Stealth classes are like that, they are nasty as hell when they use tactics and intelligence, but when focused they crumble. As it should be.

Oh you don't like where this is going huh? coz you theefs dont wanna face up to logical consequences. I'm just reading your biased post again huh i particularly liked how u try to claim insane advantages are steamrolled by and then list every class. Classic theef move. "Ohh loook we can't do anything to anyone we are soooo weak puny puny ones please no touch us at all". Meanwhile 1shotting from stealth type players and evading 8-10 man groups for 8-10 seconds without taking damage or flying across the screen. Yea, last patch but you theefs are still the same mentality. Try playing others classes, see how they get nerfed down for all their strengths.

As I just explained, the third dodge is 1 extra dodge in the entire fight. Not one dodge every X seconds. 1, in the
entire
fight. On average, thats an extra dodge every, lets say, 30-60 seconds? Yeah thats basically nothing. And yeah, Daredevil is pretty irrelevant. There are 3 builds that pick it. Condi thieves, because there are only 3 traitlines relevant to condi, and DD is one of them. Staff Thief because you
literally
dont have a choice. And S/P Thief, which picked it for exactly absolution. Well, in Conquest the Dash mobility is also nice I suppose, but that was secondary. Every single other thief build, including the only good ones dont pick it.

Bold of you to assume I havent ditched thief a long time ago and been playing other classes. Well, I guess I still play DE in PvP because I cant be bothered to craft new ascended gear, but Im getting most of my PvPing done in sPvP, where Im playing Core Engineer. You know why? Because thief is boring, and sucks at actually fighting. And right now, in 2v2, fighting is all that matters. So Id much rather have Core Engineer with its higher damage, better survivability, better utility and no downsides over whatever the least weak thief version for 2v2 is. And as for WvW, hoo boy. But let me just add to this part: "They can just outrun you even if you are using teleport(s) and speed runes with their default". Spoiler: all roaming classes can. In fact, thief is not the best one at it. Warrior is. On flat ground, thief will never be able to run away from, or catch up to, a Warrior. On elevated ground, different story because teleports help there, but most of WvW is either flat ground, or elevated ground that teleports dont work on.

Other games have not shown that. Other games have shown that permastealth out of combat always leads to frustrating gank scenarios where you just get blown out of nowhere, or result in the stealth being completely irrelevant. Out-of-combat stealth needs some kind of inherent counter to function to be at all healthy, and even then its only borderline. You know what has shown itself to be healthy though? In-combat stealth.

For someone saying "logically" a lot, you seem to not have tried to think about it logically. Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights. There are no fights they can choose that they will win (unless they are geared better/play significantly better). Which means that the only way they have of being relevant is by doing cheesy permastealth oneshots. Take away those, and the class simply is useless. As is the permastealth. So, whats the point, exactly?

So you just want thief to be slightly weaker? Congratulations, thats already accomplished. Thief is more than just slightly weaker, its significantly weaker. So, why do you want to nerf it? Hell by your own words it should be
buffed
.

Yes, because thieves are totally oneshotting from stealth on non-squishy undergeared classes right now. Totally. Its not Mesmers doing that, or Trapper Rangers, or hell Core Engineers. Its the thieves. Except, of course, its not the thieves, their damage is insufficient. I also find it interesting that you think stopping damage for 8-10 seconds once every 1.5 minutes is impressive. Like Warrior cant do that every 20 seconds. And again, Im playing Core Engineer. But how about a suggestion? Try playing thief yourself. See how well youll do. And when you inevitably die repeatedly while unable to accomplish anything, dont act surprised.

It's funny to listen to people defending overpowered stuff - they always wanna make it look like nah it's aint nothing much. Which is what you do for every point. Just deny it. Look at your wall of complication for attempted denial.

Yeah, so Overpowered that, as I said, 2/3 builds using that traitline have to be forced to use it, and none of the builds using it are very good right now. And mate, you cant just try to handwave my dismantling of all your arguments as just "denial". Youre wrong, its as simple as that.

Also i don't quite think you understand the meaning of logic. I'll give you one example how you completely defy logic in name of logic. I said:

" Theef has to pick the right fights, engage at the right time this is how to use its class strengths - how it gains the upper hand from a initial slight disadvantage. Choose starting location, positioning, terrain, +1, etc."

To which you later after going on a denial rant try to state after ironically bashing me talking about logics:

"Lets say thief is weaker in combat (which is already the case). Now what does this mean? This means that thief cannot win a fair 1v1. Which means, that their ability to choose when and where to fight doesnt matter, because while they can choose those, all that means is that they chose from a list of lost fights."

This is false. The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference. Which is a plain falsehood, therefore your deductions are not based on logic at all and do in fact defy logic. You have no idea how much your wall of denial is full of illogical holes that i am not in the mood to waste time trying to answer because i already know after you will deny everything, forget all that was said, and state more fallacy. The only thing somewhat truthful(but a strawman as completely irrelevant here) depends what you mean a fair fight - if a fair fight is 2 dudes seeing each other coming and charging into each other then no, that won't be in theefs favor - because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar which is what makes that point irrelevant, a strawman, which you then follow up with another falsehood. Etc etc.

"Logic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. So, lets dismantle this again. "The only scenario this is true under, is when the assumption is that starting location, timing, positioning makes no difference.". Not exactly. I said "Fair 1v1". Sure, you could say that thief would excel when 2v1ing someone, or when ganking a low-health target, or some such scenario, and you would be right, but it would also be irrelevant because those arent fair fights. Those are just cheesing players some other way. It also ignores that pretty much every single roamer can do that just as easily. But in a fair 1v1? Yeah, none of those matter. The only advantage thief can gain from positioning is from its abilities to shortbow 5 up cliffs. Which is good when running away. Not so good when actually fighting someone. Timing makes no difference, unless its one of the previously mentioned things. And location is the same as positioning. So, no, its a simple truth.

Oh I dont just have an idea, I know. 0%. Everything I said was completely true, your attempts at handwaving it and denying notwithstanding. I do always find it ironic how people project the very things they themselves are guilty off. But lets talk about this bit for a bit: "because entire theef class design is to make "unfair" fights using stealth to gain advantage or sniping from afar". See, thief cant set up "unfair" fights. It can only act on setups from other classes. Unless youre oneshotting from stealth (Which you also dont want to be possible), stealth does not gain you any advantage. Especially not in-combat stealth, but even out of combat stealth doesnt. There is a reason Core Engineer doesnt throw Elixir S to engage on people, it makes little sense (unless theyre squishy and youre Nade Barraging them).

As for Sniping? Thief is not Ranger. Theyre terrible at sniping. The only ranged power weapon worth using (technically P/D is also ranged, but you want to be up close due to a number of traits), Rifle, is a midrange weapon. It excels at about 900-1000 range. More and the enemy just walks backwards and is out of range, less and youre in a world of hurt. Guess what? Its no more "unfair" than literally any ranged weapon from literally any class. Is Axe "unfair" now?

Instead, lets talk about how it really works. Right now, thief does not want to 1v1 unless they can burst out of stealth. No matter how you pick your fight, if your enemy isnt undergeared, playing a terrible build and/or a much less skilled player, you will lose every single time. Unless youre Condi thief, I guess? I dont know, I dont like Condi Thief so I havent looked much into it. Instead, thief occupies the role of clean-up. They turn even fights uneven, and take care of low-health stragglers. And yeah, theyre good at it. So whats the issue? Well, as I mentioned before. Every single roamer is good at it. Especially ever since Mounts were introduced, that let everyone have the same out of combat mobility. Hell, Id even say some classes, like Warrior are better, since the only thing capable of catching up to a Warrior, is another Warrior. Plus, they do more damage, and have much better CC, which is great for +1ing. WvW is not sPvP. Shortbow 5 is not king here.

Have fun in your world of denial, theef.

The only one living in a world of denial is you. Not surprising, given that you talk so much about thief while clearly not knowing anything about thief, probably because you have never actually played thief. Then again, I also find you complaining about stealth oneshots from thief while playing Mesmer (who does stealth oneshots as well, but can oneshot non-squishies) hilarious. Hell, even now, Mesmer is a better roamer than thief (not to mention your PI-like trait wasnt nerfed into uselessness like PI itself was).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Its time to nerf the stealth. This is ridiculous.

Stealth is the same kind of buff than SuperSpeed is. Not a boon, not removable etc.

Why cant stealth just be like Superspeed then? The Duration of SuperSpeed doesnt stack, and it always takes the newest(or longest? ) Apply of the buff.Stealth should be exactly the same. It shouldnt stack in duration.

Or doest it makes sense? If i throw one smokebomb on my ground ,im invisible for some secs. If i throw 2 smokebombs im automatically stealth for twice the time? This is stupid.

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