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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@"TexZero.7910" said:You're way more generous than you should be. "Easy Raids" would be no different than open world content at which point you may as well just give them 3-5x Unid Gear.

Honestly, im fine with Easy Mode Raids having the same Chance on something ascended as normal mode raids. Ascended isnt anything special nowadays and everyone would profit from more people having proper gear.

Dont reward LI/LD/Achievements and replace the special skin drops with normal armor and weapon boxes.

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To be honest, w7 is probably the last wing we'll see happening in gw2. so yeah, easy mode is not gonna happen.what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@"Lorin.9564" said:An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

It wouldent tho since easier mode would reward less overall so no achieves etc100% rare instead of exotic with a low chance of exotic instead of ascended for example.

You're way more generous than you should be. "Easy Raids" would be no different than open world content at which point you may as well just give them 3-5x Unid Gear.

Its a weekly lockout even world bosses got 100% rare, small chance for exotic and even smaller chance at ascended daily so giving less to the raid boss now when i think about it random stat ascended is fine to just not the raid skins.

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so if we will have "easy/normal/hard "this is can mean that some achievements and loot will be possible make only on get only on hard, so it it create some elitism again.We real need this?Do we need separate players more than now ?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:It may not have been the best option, but up until the pre-HoT nerf it was always among the good ones.

Silverwastes/Dry Top say hi. There were always far better optionsas i said - maybe not the best option, but always among the good ones.Yes, Silverwastes was always good, but dungeons were also a safe pick. At times they were so good that
only
Silverwastes was better (and other options like deadeye farming and Scarlet invasions were either before Silverwastes times, or available only within a short timeframe, or both).

It may seem like that to you because you were part of that community. Yes, Fractals were not as popular as dungeons (or even as they are now), but there was still a lot more players running it than those belonging to that "focused community" of yours.

And now I'd like you to post some evidence to prove that since you started this discussion in the first place.I'd like for you to post yours, because your claim is at least as much anecdotal as mine.

I'm pretty sure you could get more rewards by running fractals at higher and higher fractal levels. Although i may be misremembering it somehow, or mixing it up with the later system.

There was no better/more reward for running higher tiers. And compared to the effort required to reach high enough levels it was never worth it.

Dungeons were kept "alive" due to farmers and casual runners. Fractals barely survived due to more casual players as well (there weren't really any farmers for them then).

Both were kept "alive" by that part of the playerbase running them, even though there were far superior options (in terms of rewards)See the first comment. Silverwastes existing didn't mean dungeon rewards were bad. They were always good enough that you could run dungeons without worry you're losing out. Unlike right after the dungeon reward nerf, for example.

You might have ignored them, because you weren't running with them, but they
were
there. And it is
them
that kept those modes alive.

Waiting for your source to prove that these existedBecause i happened to be pugging fractals at the time and know which groups were easier to find (and that casual fractal groups vere
very
easy to find)? If you want hard statistical numbers, i don't have them. But neither do you.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Actually, there were a
lot
of those suggestions.

That was 1.5 years ago when the thread was started. Nowadays I'm not seeing those people insisting on it.There's one a few posts above.

@"gonandro.4768" said:what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...Been there, done that, still think raids were a big mistake and that either easy mode should have been made, or raids shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I'd like for you to post yours, because your claim is at least as much anecdotal as mine.

You posted:

Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous)You need to provide something to support that claim otherwise as you said, both with anecdotal evidence can't go anywhere.

Because i happened to be pugging fractals at the time and know which groups were easier to find (and that casual fractal groups vere very easy to find)? If you want hard statistical numbers, i don't have them. But neither do you.

That still means there were players running fractals and dungeons for the content and the experience, regardless of the rewards. It doesn't matter if they were casual or hardcore players, they were running the content regardless of the rewards. Something that doesn't really happen in the rest of the content, as the same open world players flock to the best farm available and neglect the rest of the game (which is why Arenanet nerfs content)

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In every tea time, teapot add that easy mode it will be a great idea, especially for training. most of the experimented raiders are not interested in training people out of friend/guild list for them it's a waste of time and wast of time of energy. there even people who will think of charging people to do training.With the easy mode, the experimented raiders will probably wast one hour max to clean one wing during training with one or two wipes per boss.

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@Ultramex.1506 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

Then they should accept that you will get less(not "no reward" though that would be unreasonable) if you play easy mode, not every player want easy mode for easy reward but for story and first experience, complaining about easy mode rewards is like complaining T1 fractal rewards are less than T4 which was, you know, designed for beginner. If Anet ever bring in easy mode, no doubt the forum will be filled with complaints about the reward but will be,like most tread, ignored or rebuked and other type of player will still do raid easy mode.

Like a mode with no rewards is going to survive. Seriously, remove rewards from current raids, and they will be completely dead in a month (and even that is being generous). And that even with most of the vocal raiders claiming they aren't interested in rewards and are in it for challenge. It's hardly any different for easy mode (or for any other content).

Those making this kind of "concessions" about easy mode are perfectly aware of that.

I didn't said Easy raid should have no rewards, i said it should have less rewards. And there is a different in Easy, people can learn how bosses mechanic work and be prepared for the pressure and the difficulty that is hard mode which is the true experience for raid, with first hand experience + the best rewards in hard mode will motivate player to move out of easy mode.

easy mode can get the same reward raiders get for killing a boss again after first kill of the week, 5masterwork gear bags and 3utility bags. Maybe add a guaranteed rare with chance to be an exotic and 50s, but don't give guaranteed exotic because it'd be too rewarding in the end. They don't need the LI/LD(enough easy li/ld to get anyway already) or ascended and imo don't deserve the raid exclusive drops.

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@Lorin.9564 said:An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

imo the part that takes the most time to get the legendary raid armor isn't raiding.. it's getting 1.8k gold and getting ALL the meta currency of HoT to get the gifts.if you make one day a week 2hrs free for raids you could get the legendary gear in half a year. Even as a parent you can do that if you work a 9-5 job, learning how to plan your week helps greatly and it's very nice that most training guilds plan their raids a week ahead of time and are very understanding if you gotta cancel last minute cause personal reasons. But seriously raiding in gw2 doesn't mean you need to spend 3-5hrs/day busy raiding, if you got the time to farm the gold for legendary armor and farm the meta's you had the time to raid a bit. (I know plenty of people that work and/or have kids that made it work)

Also easy mode shouldn't get access to legendary armor.. if you want effortless legendary armor, you can get it in PvP/WvW by afking already. Seriously the point of easymode originally was so people could learn the lore and explore the areas, not to get the same rewards as people who actually put minimal effort into one of the very few gamemodes that require some effort. Stop wanting EVERY kitty THING for no kitty effort at all, it'll be the dead of gw2 when everything is available for 0 effort.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Actually, there were a
lot
of those suggestions.

That was 1.5 years ago when the thread was started. Nowadays I'm not seeing those people insisting on it.There's one a few posts above.

@"gonandro.4768" said:what really amazes me, is seeing some players have been asking for an "easy mode" for the whole existence of this thread, Imagine if you spent that time trying to actually learn instead of whining. huh...Been there, done that, still think raids were a big mistake and that either easy mode should have been made, or raids shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

Can you quote that new post above it dident say no loot it said less loot.

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Everyone arguing about loot and balancing with fun - it is a moot point. We know they could make this work because other games have made it work - and, while those models couldn't be copy/pasted, modified versions would obviously fit in the game.

The barriers are developmental resources and developer reticence, plain and simple.

That said, it is interesting to look at this thread every so often and see that the number of people voting for "we need both" continues to steadily increase. I know people want to discredit what they see, but the results of this poll are pretty conclusive at this point.

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@"Blaeys.3102" said:Everyone arguing about loot and balancing with fun - it is a moot point. We know they could make this work because other games have made it work - and, while those models couldn't be copy/pasted, modified versions would obviously fit in the game.

The barriers are developmental resources and developer reticence, plain and simple.

That said, it is interesting to look at this thread every so often and see that the number of people voting for "we need both" continues to steadily increase. I know people want to discredit what they see, but the results of this poll are pretty conclusive at this point.

The fact that the game is still running without an easy mode, forums are a very small percentage of players and low level fractals are effectively dead outside of recommended dailys and legendary collections shows that the poll is useless.

The other games have vertical progression and offer character development above dungeon quality in difficulties the target audience would normally play. That is a major pull effect for replayability that GW2 can't offer.In GW2 everything is about rewards and if you scale the easy mode rewards with content equal in open world, nobody will play it more than once. Which are actually wasted ressources with content at that scale with the current development.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Honestly, im fine with Easy Mode Raids having the same Chance on something ascended as normal mode raids. Ascended isnt anything special nowadays and everyone would profit from more people having proper gear.

Respectfully disagree. Everyone would benefit if people played the game and learned properly, handing out gear doesn't solve that issue and only causes players to become more complaicent.

Dont reward LI/LD/Achievements and replace the special skin drops with normal armor and weapon boxes.

This i can agree with.

However, the that only works if easy mode still retains the mechanics it needs to to actually teach people. If the mechanics that cause wipes are changed or removed then they don't deserve to get ascended quality anything as stated before you're turning them into glorified open world content at that point.

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@"Lorin.9564" said:An easier mode for raids would give working players and families, who can't invest that much time in the game, the chance to get access to the legendary armour. I hope Anet will give them a real chance to get the armour they like.

As much as I might like to agree with this statement, I can't for a couple of reasons. The first being that whether or not you work or have a family one fundamental of a healthy life is to make time for yourself, unlike other MMO's you don't need 3 - 5 hours to do a raid in GW2, from what I've seen and heard they can be completed in 1 - 2 hours, which is adequate time for those working and with families for "me" time. Secondly if you have an "easy" mode I don't think anyone participating should get the Legendary Armor, if you want the Legendary Armor then you need to be willing to put in some time and effort for it...and that's speaking as a person who would partake of easy mode raids, but otherwise I really have no desire or inclination to try them.

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@TexZero.7910 said:Respectfully disagree. Everyone would benefit if people played the game and learned properly, handing out gear doesn't solve that issue and only causes players to become more complaicent.

I think we both now that thats not going to happen.However, i still think everyone can benefit from this. Autoattacking in Ascended is better than autoattacking in exotics.Ascended isnt anything special anymore anyway. I really dont see an issue in making in easier to aquire for everyone.

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  • 9 months later...

Well, it's been quite some time. Seems strike missions are the new cool thing, replacing raids to some point. I'm sure there's a lot of conflicting opinions about that around here, and who knows, some of you might even have a different opinion about the original topic nowadays.

So yeah, what's your take on the issue? Has anyone changed his mind?

Results so far:

  • We need both easy and hard modes - 597 - 52%
  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 92 - 8%
  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 90 - 7%
  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 270 - 23%
  • Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 83 - 7%

From the data above:

  • 60% of the people want an easy mode.
  • 59% of the people want a hard mode.
  • 67% of the people want difficulty modes.
  • 30% of the people doesn't want difficulty modes.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

Looks like worst case predictions came true after all. The writing was on the wall, 20+ years of modern MMO history to learn from, but whatever.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.

I know lot of people stopped running fractals after the instability changes a few months ago. They were hardly fun before, with barely any rewards aside from gold as the reason to stay around, and then they turned them into an even bigger pain. The game mode wasn't doing well, and they made everything worse.

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

Fractals ? That's why is more difficult to find a fractal T3 or low level T4 them a T4 HL ???

It's more difficult to find people for T3 due to them being harder to play with inexperienced players you find there at the moment. People who can head for T4 will do that obviously because it guarantees much more rewards and you meet (or in the past "met") players knowing what and how to do it.But I still don't see your point. You can't seriously have the opinion that easing raids down will lead to a remarkable influx of players for fractals (I hope you see the dependence & connection on fractal difficulty via balancing). The crowd aiming for challenging content won't come back if things get easier, that's a fact. The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes. Another part due to the latest changes.The rest of the player base hasn't even played lower tier fractals (not to speak of regularly). they also won't join this part just because power creep. They are not interested in instanced content. There's one thing you can do: tune rewards even higher and your Silverwaste crowd will farm ez T4 fracs.

I would argue fractals would be fine with just 3 tiers, and a special tier for the hard modes (now challenge motes). Fractal level should be detached from level completion and turned into an exclusive mastery line with its own xp gain restrictions and mastery insights instead, if not removed altogether. Something like WvW ranks would be great too.

@"lare.5129" said:so if we will have "easy/normal/hard "this is can mean that some achievements and loot will be possible make only on get only on hard, so it it create some elitism again.We real need this?Do we need separate players more than now ?

Separating can lead to a healthier community, while forcing everyone together can destroy it.

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Raid difficulty is what leads to elitism. I'm done with serious raid enviroment for the rest of my life, nowadays i just wanna play and while i play fairly well myself, i want content where you can make mistakes and not die right away, where you dont have to dodge a new killshot every 0.1 second, content where you learn and improve and then when you feel like you mastered the encounters you can take it to proper raids confident that you won't make mistakes in those fights. I don't care if you only get 1/3 of the rewards of normals raids, just give me a way to enjoy that content and have fun in some group fights and if i do that enough it's possible to earn the rewards. As long as normal raids are clearly more rewarding, all is good. And maybe some titles for harder raids too.

In other words, i'm not setting foot inside raids the way they are now - it's not forgiving enough and i don't like the people and the their attitudes. Don't get me wrong, i don't meet many that can outperform me in the many years i played wow, but i also liked less and less the environment that raids breeds. I prefer ARPG gameplay i farm all day long and it's more about farm cadence and having fun than anything else. There are hardmode raids, pvp, wvw if you wanna compete more seriously. But the way it is now, myself and i am sure many many more won't step foot in raids because it doesn't give a good feeling inside with the players there and how unforgiving it is.

So you want more people in raids the answer is super simple - make a far more forgiving mode where decent+ pugs can go in and clear it without too much trouble, just ones that can listen to basic tactics but they don't need to be masters and can make mistakes and it won't be the end. I love dungeons and raids with random people the most, but it gets ruined when the raids gets so hard they breed elitism.

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Wow such a old thread

Easy mode is the way to go to attract new players into raiding

Definitely no LI or LD drops and much MUCH lesser rewards for the easy mode (otherwise no point in having normal)

Scale the boss damage and mechanic damage so it may give a second chance to players who missed em or not know what to do but still do a decent output damage so they know it's not one to face tank

As more people do the easy mode it should interest some to go try the normal as they now know what mechanics are in place

I honestly dont know why anet decided to go with strikes instead....If the current raids are kept as normal mode, keep the cm for challenges and add a easy mode so pugs can see/explore and taste what raids are like.

But will only work if rewards are far less

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It's a no brainer, the vast majority of players do pve, only a tiny minority do raids, obviously the style pve in raids is to blame, e. G, minmaxing, rote memorisation of hoop jumping to progress, simplification of build to organise (dps role etc) and a little elitism on top.

Give easier mode where the goal is not to offer this kind of gameplay, but to offer 10 man instances pve and you have a winner. The beauty is this increase in player base = more resource for raids = more hard content as well. Everyone wins.

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I didn't do raid but I don't think difficulty is the main issue. How do I can judge the difficult of the content If I didn't have opportunity to try in first place.

My main reason is this content require too many people and "Meta" build to make it "playable" I'm type of player who prefer to do thing alone not member of any guild (but my one man guild) it's nearly impossible to get enough people to do it , just waiting alone would take like hour... and it would take like 30+ min to finish each raid. if I suddenly got a phone call or any reason to left at mid flight it'll ruin the entire party and that feel really bad.

but since this's the nature of this content I'll not ask Anet to change it and people who already have time to enjoy can stay enjoy it. instead of change this content I'm more prefer overhaul Dungeon or add mini raid content where it's can finish faster and need less people like fractral give lesser but same reward.

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It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

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@Draygorn.7012 said:It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

Strike Missions from the scale of 1-10 (10 being the hardest) , how hard are they ?5 ?

By boyfriend and I , we are trying to clear Wing 5 in our spare time and we havent done them .

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@Draygorn.7012 said:It's a good idea and will definitely help more noobish players (like myself) get into the swing of raids in a less daunting manner. I think a lot of us do want to try our hand at raiding, but have been a little intimidated to try it because of the large leap in difficultly, which may also be part of the reason why the raiding player base is so minimal. I know Anet has implemented Strike Missions as pseudo easier raids, but doesn't really bridge the gap well enough. Also, harder difficulty for raids will help the veterans to not get bored of the content as much :P

It would if players took them seriously as if they were doing actual raids. The problem is that you still have a lot of people doing them while having terrible personal DPS and not even attempting the bonus chests.

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Raids need a lower people requirement, this would make them more accessible to EVERYONE. The hardest entry point into raids is needing a 10 man group who can all play at the same time. We have lives; jobs, wives, girlfriends, kids, studies, friends, pets.... You get it. Even then, when you achieve a group through all this Bs - learning the raid you are then having to deal with players who have very different skill levels.

I would love to complete a raid (I'm a veteran player with above average abilities in game) and have never completed one for the above reasons. Until both anet and the community wakes up and realizes this is why raids are a fail it will continue to be.

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