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Let's discuss Soulbeast's latest Pet changes!


DarkFlopy.8197

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As soon as the balance patch hits, first things being said and being changed in ranger are......

Soulbeasts, long standing without a tradeoff, are now receiving theirs—they lose combat access to a second pet and must choose carefully which pet they're going to be bonded with in battle. We're also enhancing several core ranger traits and some select weapon skills that we felt were on the weak side.

  • Soulbeast: Soulbeasts can no longer swap pets while in combat. Entering and leaving beastmode with your pet now counts as a pet swap for the purposes of the Clarion Bond and Zephyr's Speed traits.>

So... i want to discuss this.im going to start with a question here:

WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

so, what i am going to do with a 2nd pet? literally since the patch hit i have NEVER hit the pet swap, 90% of the time i couldn't because i was in combat and the other 10% of the time it was absolutely not needed to do so.

again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

what do you think about this "lets just push something so it will look like we are working on balance" change?.

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@"DarkFlopy.8197" said:im going to start with a question here:

WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

The same point eng/eles have their weapon swap available OOC. Or the same point you can hot-key swap build templates OOC. For convenience. Glad I could help o/

its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

wat

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Elite specs are no longer supposed to be flat upgrades on top of all your existing class mechanics. If you want to have access to the unique elite spec mechanic, you will have to give up some of your core stuff for it now.

Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

And like Sobx already pointed out, my engineer also has weapon swap out of combat only. It is for convenience, if you are going to change your build, you can have another fitting pet for that build pre selected so you just have to swap ooc instead of chosing the pet anew all the time.

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@"kharmin.7683" said:I understand the points. I just don't like them. I also disagree with this change fitting thematically. But, that's my opinion.

Why don't you think they fit thematically?The Soulbeast is someone who has reached such deep understanding with his companion that they are able to fuse into one body. Basically the ultimate form of bonding with your pet.

I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with one pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"DarkFlopy.8197" said:im going to start with a question here:

WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

The same point eng/eles have their weapon swap available OOC. Or the same point you can hot-key swap build templates OOC. For convenience. Glad I could help o/

its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

wat

i dont know man im annoyed by this change, i cant think straight lol.

@"Ashkew.6584" said:just use second pet for plasma or stealth out of combat, or you get a pet that helps you better vs a condi matchup and a pet vs a powermatchup and swap to the one you need

i have been using siamoth for years so thats absolutely my best option, but you missed the idea... the "just use second pet" you suggested wont work because YOU CAN'T USE THE SECOND PET IN COMBAT so out of combat its not relevant.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:I understand the points. I just don't like them. I also disagree with this change fitting thematically. But, that's my opinion.

Why don't you think they fit thematically?The Soulbeast is someone who has reached such deep understanding with his companion that they are able to fuse into one body. Basically the ultimate form of bonding with your pet.

I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with
one
pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

so how about this:you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

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@DarkFlopy.8197 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with
one
pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

so how about this:you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

i think you’re just overcomplicating it now.

This change follows Anets vision of elite specs and follows the same path other nerfed elite specs took. It’s a big change and it will take more than a week to feel normal again. Yes, it sucks we got nerfed, but it’s better for the overall health of the game. Every other elite spec that got nerfed is still more than fine

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@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with
one
pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

so how about this:you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

i think you’re just overcomplicating it now.

This change follows Anets vision of elite specs and follows the same path other nerfed elite specs took. It’s a big change and it will take more than a week to feel normal again. Yes, it sucks we got nerfed, but it’s better for the overall health of the game. Every other elite spec that got nerfed is still more than fine

hmmm true.perhaps later on we will feel normal again, about the overall health of the game... im not sure about that because this patch brought a lot of immortal and highly sustainable builds out there and its kinda making the meta not very fun.

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Considering some of soulbeasts biggest rival matchups like holo have been nerfed into oblivion, same for mirage, it's not kind of easier to go up against them.

These days, LOS and kiting is more important. Soulbeast still works fine. Only difference is you can't be fighting and suddenly decide to bail by swapping to bird and swoop away. But in actual fights soulbeast is still doing fine

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For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

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@Dami.5046 said:For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

Doesn't seem fair for the other classes to give rangers special treatment.Necromancers won't get their base shroud additionally to their new shroud mechanics.Engineers won't get their elite toolbelt spells back when using elite specs.

And so on. A trade off for an elite spec should apply to all game modes. Why should rangers get special treatment over everyone else?

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Honestly, and I say this as someone who loves ranger, this should have been the way soulbeast was from the start. Anet should have marketed SB as the elite spec that forms a strong bond with one pet and is able to merge with it. Instead, they gave it two pets, allowed players to grow accustomed to having two pets, and then took it away. Narually, there's going to be some backlash.

I do believe that this was the right choice, however I do not like that this has the effect of also dumbing down the class. Dumbed down means less fun, and a game should, above all else, be fun.

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@Kuma.1503 said:Honestly, and I say this as someone who loves ranger, this should have been the way soulbeast was from the start. Anet should have marketed SB as the elite spec that forms a strong bond with one pet and is able to merge with it. Instead, they gave it two pets, allowed players to grow accustomed to having two pets, and then took it away. Narually, there's going to be some backlash.

I do believe that this was the right choice, however I do not like that this has the effect of also dumbing down the class. Dumbed down means less fun, and a game should, above all else, be fun.

This here hits the nail. This should have been how the Soulbeast worked from the very beginning, people would have been ok with it. But when mechanics are taken away after years, of course this will upset.

Imagine if, for example, the Reaper would have released with the option to use both shroud forms and then they get their base shroud taken away and replaced with the reapers shroud solely. People would have complained here, too. But since Reaper worked like that from the very beginning, there was nothing taken away from them. They didn't play for years with the option to use more and then got it ripped from them.

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@Kuma.1503 said:Honestly, and I say this as someone who loves ranger, this should have been the way soulbeast was from the start. Anet should have marketed SB as the elite spec that forms a strong bond with one pet and is able to merge with it. Instead, they gave it two pets, allowed players to grow accustomed to having two pets, and then took it away. Narually, there's going to be some backlash.

I do believe that this was the right choice, however I do not like that this has the effect of also dumbing down the class. Dumbed down means less fun, and a game should, above all else, be fun.

Totally agree, thematically it was cleat that Soul-beast should have been a one pet specialization to begin with. It even got the mechanic to work around pet death. It is also pointless to give it the option to swap pets out of combat. It should have been one pet and that's it.

Problem with Soulbeast is not the merge mechanic. Problem is that most of the pet skills implantation for for the Soulbeast feel like useless filler skills, which is a shame as it gave A.net the opportunity to make bad core pets shine. Another 2 big issues with Soulbesat is non exist trait selection for PvP and dagger lacking functionality.

Soulbeast can be made to be tons of fun even with one pet, if anything they can really make it into a strength that gives flavor and identity for each pet/build.

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@LughLongArm.5460 said:

Totally agree, thematically it was cleat that Soul-beast should have been a one pet specialization to begin with. It even got the mechanic to work around pet death. It is also pointless to give it the option to swap pets out of combat. It should have been one pet and that's it.

Problem with Soulbeast is not the merge mechanic....

I wholeheartedly disagree, while thematically it fits to merge with a single pet, balance wise the ranger was neutered from the start in large scale combat, effectively rendering the profession's core mechanic as useless as clones (but let's not also get into mesmer balance issues...)

Soulbeast practically gave the ranger its' core mechanic back in group combat. A most welcome change for WvW and to some extent PvE world bosses.

As far as tradeoffs go, considering F5 revives the pet, changing the cooldown on pet swapping to 1 minute by default for soulbeasts would've been a much more elegant change, and, more importantly, wouldn't have dumbed down the ranger as much as it did. I would argue it would've instead heightened the skill ceiling.

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Yes, your second pet is just hanging there, it seems that the change isnt elaborated to cover that in pve enviroment. Moreover, I believe that these tradeoffs in general are unhealthy for gameplay. You basically tune down elite spec to have some incentive to play core profession, but it doesnt add anything to have more fun in experimenting with builds.Ive been actually playing with this idea of having bonus while one has 3 core specs: for example if ranger had wilderness survival, nature magic and beastmastery, he/she would get water aura. The bonus would be different based on the combination of the 3 lines. Now thats the kind of incentive I would like .)

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dami.5046 said:For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

Doesn't seem fair for the other classes to give rangers special treatment.Necromancers won't get their base shroud additionally to their new shroud mechanics.Engineers won't get their elite toolbelt spells back when using elite specs.

And so on. A trade off for an elite spec should apply to all game modes. Why should rangers get special treatment over everyone else?

Well give them back if they are affecting their PVE! I am not talking about any other classes on a ranger thread FGS.

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@"DarkFlopy.8197" said:

again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!

I myself am unhappy with the lazy sort of change implemented to Soulbeast, but this is a pretty stupid question.

Why does Rev have access to 5 Legends when they can only use 2?Why does every Ele and Engi have weapon swap when they can only use 1 set in combat?Why do we have over 27 traits to pick at a time but can only use 9 in combat?

Now for actual discussion about pet balancing.

Soulbeast has long been considered "stronger Ranger" because it literally is similar to Ranger but has beast mode, giving them access to potentially 6 extra skills

What makes me scratch my head is that Druids are the one which got the "weaker pets" tradeoff when according to lore, Soulbeasts are the ones who are supposed to have "weaker pets" which results in the training of the Soulbeast discipline to merge with their pets.

In fact, it even reflects in combat well now, because Soulbeasts now have to keep track of their own health and their pet's health, and merge to save them or else their pet is put out of the fight for awhile.

I'm just baffled as to why Druid's tradeoff was simply "weaker pets" while Soulbeast's tradeoff is "less versatility"

If it were up to me, I would give Soulbeasts "weaker pets" and give Druid another sort of tradeoff.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"DarkFlopy.8197" said:

again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!

I myself am unhappy with the lazy sort of change implemented to Soulbeast, but this is a pretty stupid question.

Why does Rev have access to 5 Legends when they can only use 2?Why does every Ele and Engi have weapon swap when they can only use 1 set in combat?Why do we have over 27 traits to pick at a time but can only use 9 in combat?

Now for actual discussion about pet balancing.

Soulbeast has long been considered "stronger Ranger" because it literally is similar to Ranger but has beast mode, giving them access to potentially 6 extra skills

What makes me scratch my head is that Druids are the one which got the "weaker pets" tradeoff when according to lore, Soulbeasts are the ones who are supposed to have "weaker pets" which results in the training of the Soulbeast discipline to merge with their pets.

In fact, it even reflects in combat well now, because Soulbeasts now have to keep track of their own health and their pet's health, and merge to save them or else their pet is put out of the fight for awhile.

I'm just baffled as to why Druid's tradeoff was simply "weaker pets" while Soulbeast's tradeoff is "less versatility"

If it were up to me, I would give Soulbeasts "weaker pets" and give Druid another sort of tradeoff.

The trade off they gave Soulbeast makes more sense mechanically and thematically.

Thematically, it makes sense because the Soulbeast and his pet are supposed to have a much deeper connection. They reached such a strong bond that they are able to fuse into one body. Thematically, it makes sense that you are able to reach this strong relationship by focusing on one pet solely. You have to invest all your time and effort into understanding your companion.

Mechanically, it makes sense because the fusion is supposed to give you the stat advantage. Weakening your pet would also mean weakening the stats you get from fusing with them. And since the Soulbeast is supposed to fight in the middle of the enemy, it benefits you to get as many stats as possible to increase both, your offensive and defensive abilities. The primary focus of Soulbeast is combat, so why would you want to decrease their combat strength by weakening the pet?

Meanwhile the focus of the Druid is support and healing. Decreasing their combat strength makes sense, they are a healer, why should they be able to deal as much damage as other specs of the Ranger. Also since the Druid is able to heal their allies, including their pet, the pet is also not as dependant on their own defensive stats since it can get backed up by the Druid to stay alive.

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I would have hanged the Soul Beast so that it doesn't have pets at all and instead swaps to "Beast spirits" you could select 2 spirits just like pets to swap to. You'd be permanently in beast mode, but get stat buff and access to pet skills. Think of it as revenant, but with Beast spirits changing your "attunement" from Stout to Ferocious and changing the F1,2,3 skills. In small scale fights not having smoke scales field and utility would be nerf, but it would feel more unique and not just "you're a ranger, but you merge with pets"And druid needs a change too. Pets under their control need to become celestial when avatar is active giving them some sort of ability, something like "Your pets are weaker, but while in celestial avatar form your pet applies X to allies or heals nearby allies by X amount for X duration or does X to foes and has 40% reduced damage/condi taken." Something that makes your pets as well as you ACTUALLY support people and not be a weak, useless CC bot and nothing more.

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Maining a soulbeast, I disliked the "one pet in combat" at first but ultimately I grew accustomed to it. The player just need to be more careful/smart when to swap pet. In a way, it requires a bit more complex play style with more situation awareness so you don't end up with wrong pet when getting into combat mode. Despite damage nerfs, I think SB is still viable specs and playing soulbeast is still fun for me.

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@Kodama.6453 said:Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

I've been quite confused about this update since they first revealed where they were going with soulbeast. It's had a tradeoff since PoF first came out, one of the most glaring ones out there: when you merge to get your extra skills/stats, you don't have your pet there anymore. That seems like a pretty explicit tradeoff to me.

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