Revenant Energy suggestion/discussion.

[Yasai.3549]

Revenant right now is going from bad to worse.Energy system is failing because we are being gutted by high Energy costs while still having sizeable cooldowns on some weapon skills.

I think it's time Anet decides to rework the Energy system altogether, and I have created this thread to gather suggestions and for people to discuss about the ideas everyone has put down.Hopefully Anet does read this thread.

My suggestion :

Energy changes its function to be a "time limit" instead of "fuel"Revenants start combat with 100% Energy and it drains over time and refreshes when yu swap Legends. (Drain would be at a rate of 10% per second)Upkeep skills are made more powerful and adds drain upon activating. (will increase drain to 15% per second)Skills have their CDs adjusted so that they aren't so spammable, but cooldowns are still short enough that Revs are strong within this short window.. (highest 15 seconds, lowest 5 seconds)Weapon skills and Utilities no longer cost Energy.When Energy drains to 0%, the utilities are locked out and forces the player to swap Legends.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Energy from weapon skills removed

Revenant start at 100 energy

Legend swapping no longer has cooldown but also no longer provides energy on legend swap allowing us to pick best kit for x fight and swap as needed

Cooldowns from utility skills removed completely (core legends)

[Yasai.3549]

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

• Energy from weapon skills removed
• Revenant start at 100 energy
• Legend swapping no longer has cooldown but also no longer provides energy on legend swap allowing us to pick best kit for x fight and swap as needed
• Cooldowns from utility skills removed completely (core legends)

This is an awesome idea.I think it would make Revenant more "Elementalist" like if Energy continued to recharged while swapped out and then being able to swap between Legends freely.

Of course this would mean no Energy reset to 50, which will still make Rev players need to manage Energy wisely if not both their Legends will be empty and they will be left with no utility.

Good suggestion.

[zallesz.1650]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

• Energy from weapon skills removed
• Revenant start at 100 energy
• Legend swapping no longer has cooldown but also no longer provides energy on legend swap allowing us to pick best kit for x fight and swap as needed
• Cooldowns from utility skills removed completely (core legends)

Damn these are good suggestions. But people would probably cry because it is too op?

[Yasai.3549]

@zallesz.1650 said:

kitten these are good suggestions. But people would probably cry because it is too op?

If anything it will make Revenant unable to spam abilities because there is no natural regen, only passive regen when it is swapped out.Once yu hit like, Pain Absorb and CtA, yur already 60 energy down and left with 40 to use on Heal skill, EtD and Banish Enchantment, and that is gonna go very fast if yu continue to spam.

This will actually make Energy traits stronger for picking as well.

[Virdo.1540]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

• Legend swapping no longer has cooldown but also no longer provides energy on legend swap allowing us to pick best kit for x fight and swap as needed

this would make revs in pve terrible, since it would just be an all out attacker.It would make the rev extremely overpowered in short fights, but will have many low-dmg breaks in longer(raid) fights.Like the most holosmith builds... u get into fight and if the fight goes too long, you are screwed.

but the others are good ones :bleep_bloop:

[Clownmug.8357]

My idea would keep things mostly the same but make legend swap a slightly more dynamic choice.

What I'd do is implement two energy pools, one pool for your active legend and one pool for your inactive legend. After swapping legends your inactive legend would go on a 5 second cooldown and reset its energy pool to 0. The inactive energy pool would then recharge at 5 energy per sec so when you swap back the amount of energy available will vary depending how long you waited. If you only waited for the 5 second cooldown, you'd only have 25 energy to use, but if you waited 10 seconds you'd have 50 energy like you normally would. You could also wait longer than 10 seconds and accumulate more energy if you wanted.

Additionally the Charged Mists trait could be reworked to complement this mechanic by simply having it increase the recharge rate for your inactive legend. With an increased recharge rate of 50% you'd have 75 energy after 10 seconds which is close to how it works now, but without needing to jump through hoops.

Energy after Legend Swap

• 5 Second Recharge - 25 Energy
• 10 Second Recharge - 50 Energy
• 15 Second Recharge - 75 Energy
• 20+ Second Recharge - 100 Energy

Energy after Legend Swap (Charged Mists)

• 5 Second Recharge - 37.5 Energy
• 10 Second Recharge - 75 Energy
• 15+ Second Recharge - 100 Energy

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Clownmug.8357 said:My idea would keep things mostly the same but make legend swap a slightly more dynamic choice.

What I'd do is implement two energy pools, one pool for your active legend and one pool for your inactive legend. After swapping legends your inactive legend would go on a 5 second cooldown and reset its energy pool to 0. The inactive energy pool would then recharge at 5 energy per sec so when you swap back the amount of energy available will vary depending how long you waited. If you only waited for the 5 second cooldown, you'd only have 25 energy to use, but if you waited 10 seconds you'd have 50 energy like you normally would. You could also wait longer than 10 seconds and accumulate more energy if you wanted.

Additionally the Charged Mists trait could be reworked to complement this mechanic by simply having it increase the recharge rate for your inactive legend. With an increased recharge rate of 50% you'd have 75 energy after 10 seconds which is close to how it works now, but without needing to jump through hoops.

Energy after Legend Swap

• 5 Second Recharge - 25 Energy
• 10 Second Recharge - 50 Energy
• 15 Second Recharge - 75 Energy
• 20+ Second Recharge - 100 Energy

Energy after Legend Swap (Charged Mists)

• 5 Second Recharge - 37.5 Energy
• 10 Second Recharge - 75 Energy
• 15+ Second Recharge - 100 Energy

This is actually pretty good. Have my thumbs up sir.

[Yasai.3549]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

This is actually pretty good. Have my thumbs up sir.

Except it kinda promotes Legend camping, and with our current Energy costs, it's not viable.This would be great only if we have the Rev utilities looked at and have their Energy costs adjusted.

If not, this will actually hurt Rev harder because if yu swap at the quickest available time for say, a stunbreak, yur still not gonna get the Energy needed for a stunbreak, plus yur recently swapped Legend will automatically drain itself upon swapping.

Maybe remove the drain on swapping would be nice, then Rev would have something similar to Thief's Ini system except it's being split in two and having one in reserve while the active one fuels skill costs.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

This is actually pretty good. Have my thumbs up sir.

Except it kinda promotes Legend camping, and with our current Energy costs, it's not viable.This would be great only if we have the Rev utilities looked at and have their Energy costs adjusted.

If not, this will actually hurt Rev harder because if yu swap at the quickest available time for say, a stunbreak, yur still not gonna get the Energy needed for a stunbreak, plus yur recently swapped Legend will automatically drain itself upon swapping.

Maybe remove the drain on swapping would be nice, then Rev would have something similar to Thief's Ini system except it's being split in two and having one in reserve while the active one fuels skill costs.

Yeah, that’s a good point.

[Julius Seizure.4985]

Energy is working fine for gating everything except stun breaks. You often are caught without enough energy to break a stun, and legend swap is on cool down. No other class faces this issue right now.

There are 2 solutions to this.

1. First, make all all stun breaks cost 5 energy and have a normal cool down. In a way, the most viable stun break Revenant has already functions like this in Gaze of Darkness.

2. The best option, however, is to have all all stun breaks cost half energy when they actually break a stun (player is mezzed), but then receive an additional recharge penalty (perhaps 10-15 seconds). When a stun break does not break an actual stun, it would cost full energy and not have a recharge penalty (repeat use available as it is currently, just gated by energy.)

This would make a few things happen for the class. Firstly, you could still use many stun break skills without a CD solely for their effects. This has become a key aspect of the class for many builds. Secondly, the Revenant class would have more reliable access to stun breaks when actually stunned, as many of them would suddenly cost just 15 to 20 energy when mezzed, and the skill would incur a recharge penalty to pay for/balance this reduced cost.

[Clownmug.8357]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

This is actually pretty good. Have my thumbs up sir.

Except it kinda promotes Legend camping, and with our current Energy costs, it's not viable.This would be great only if we have the Rev utilities looked at and have their Energy costs adjusted.

If not, this will actually hurt Rev harder because if yu swap at the quickest available time for say, a stunbreak, yur still not gonna get the Energy needed for a stunbreak, plus yur recently swapped Legend will automatically drain itself upon swapping.

Maybe remove the drain on swapping would be nice, then Rev would have something similar to Thief's Ini system except it's being split in two and having one in reserve while the active one fuels skill costs.

The only benefit to camping would be a lack of diminishing return if you put off swapping for a second or two more than normal. If you need a stunbreak you'd only need to wait up to 7 seconds for most legends compared to a full 10 seconds like now. Then if you want to switch back you'd only need to wait 5 seconds, rather than another 10 seconds. If anything you'd be swapping legends more often rather than camping.

[Mini.4806]

I wish they'd do something to make the Revenant more intuitive to play. It's my favourite class concept but it's so clunky in use. I often find I'm not using most of my abilities because the bar drains too fast otherwise. If it started at 100 out of combat it might promote more of a tactical use than simply swapping off cooldown because the one ability I used rendered me exhausted. I dunno, it just feels like it needs another balance pass.

[alain.1659]

Well latest version of rev is really clunky. People are complaining that rev utilities doing too many things yet they do not consider how rev is unable to change them as they wish.

If it continues like this rev will be a really boring profession to play and will start to lose its core players in big numbers.

[Zaret.1450]

First of all i think legend swap should be affected by alacrity at least .Next while i like the idea of starting up with 100 energy i think they could rework charged mists(think that is the trait name) so it makes rev start at 75 energy alwais and if swaping under 20 energy you start with 100.Also i think at least some weapons should get less cooldown at least ( for example offhand sword because in power builds ,at least in pve, you dont realy have that many skills you can use to deal dmg ,or hammer because it is already slow enought on its own )

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@zaswer.5246 said:First of all i think legend swap should be affected by alacrity at least .

If it gets affected by alacrity, it gets affected by chill. I don't think any of us want to get countered by the condi like Ele does.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@zaswer.5246 said:First of all i think legend swap should be affected by alacrity at least .Next while i like the idea of starting up with 100 energy i think they could rework charged mists(think that is the trait name) so it makes rev start at 75 energy alwais and if swaping under 20 energy you start with 100.Also i think at least some weapons should get less cooldown at least ( for example offhand sword because in power builds ,at least in pve, you dont realy have that many skills you can use to deal dmg ,or hammer because it is already slow enought on its own )

Agreed. They keep bumping up CDs but don’t reduce energy costs or vice versa. There’s supposed to be a give/take with this double punishment of skill usage, yet we’re not seeing it. Several of our skills are already comparable/ getting close to other class skills in terms of CDs.

[Yasai.3549]

Necroing this thread because of the recent PvP patch 23 March 2021.

The recent PvP patch sees one of the craziest slaps to Revenant to date :Adding 7 seconds to Phase Traversal for a total of 12s cooldown on a 35 Energy Skill.

This leads me to think, should Revenant just be reworked now?The Energy-Low cooldown system seems to be hard to balance to the point where in order to tone it down, there's a need to strip down the original gameplay design of Revenant, which is Expensive costs for low cooldown skills.

I have another proposal for this :

• Revenants have 10 Energy Resource total.
• Revenants have 5 Energy Resource when combat starts and when not in combat
• Each utility skill has low cooldowns again, but costs X amount of Resource to cast
• Resource is only regained by Legend Swapping, and HITTING with Weapon skills (Including Autos)
• Introduce new traits which will aid in regaining Resource through specific actions (Like Dodging, Blocking, Healing etc.)

Upkeep skills :They will now instead of draining Energy, will instead reserve a portion of the Revenant's Health based on cost, and can only activate the upkeep if they have this amount of health to lose.Revenants can technically keep their Upkeeps on as long as they want now, but will suffer decreased max health for the duration.When Revenants toggle their upkeep off, this reserved health is returned to them immediately.Traits can be introduced to help sustain this sort of playstyle.

Revenant will have their F2s slightly tweaked across all specs :Core : Ancient Echo becomes Meditation Stance, when activated will grant 1 Resource per second for 5 seconds, while sustaining a buff based on LegendHerald : FoN will now adhere to the new Upkeep mechanic I have suggested and when reactivated, will cast a skill based on Legend and restore ResourceRenegade : Orders from Above will now be the altered F2 skill, when activated will Restore 5 Resource to the Renegade and granting Alacrity.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Omg those changes hurt my soul. Good thing I don't PvP anymore. 10 extra energy on swap for having to properly manage your energy, or powerful instant effects for literally just legend swapping. What a hard choice to make. Makes me more grateful that they don't give a kitten about WvW balance.

[Jaykay.9641]

It's been discussed many times, but I think the easiest thing to do is remove energy costs on weapons and just have the current energy system used for the utility skills only. Adjust utility CD's, energy costs, and energy upkeep cost to compensate.

While it's not the most fun or dramatic change, it's probably the easiest. But whatever happens, the energy system is reaching its breaking point for design. Changes are needed.

[Justine.6351]

Yep eff pvp rev lol

[Axl.8924]

I got a question since:

Charged Mists: Reduced energy gain from 25 to 10 in PvP only.Phase Traversal: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.Infuse Light: Reduced duration of damage inversion effect from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.Energy Expulsion: Reduced knockback distance from 450 to 100 in PvP only.Blinding Truths: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds in PvP only.

How big of a deal is the charged mist change energy wise? do you have any other techs that give good energy?

[Yasai.3549]

@Axl.8924 said:

How big of a deal is the charged mist change energy wise? do you have any other techs that give good energy?

Huge deal, because it massively reduces its use versus the other two GM traits.It was used mainly to stop Upkeep Renegades from being effective, but as a result, its entire usability has just plummeted in pvp.

Yur way better off having extra 20% crit chance from Fury or Song of the Mist.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

There's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely change the Energy System simply because of a few questionable PvP changes. All of these were PvP only, which means the Energy System still is fine in PvE and WvW, and even in PvP this isn't actually as gamebreaking as it may seem. While I generally dislike adding cooldowns to Utility skills for Rev, the Phase Traversal change isn't really that surprising, given that they just bumped Infiltrator's Arrow up to 8 Initiative on thief. Phase Traversal has been fairly out of balance for how often you can teleport when compared to almost every other Utility teleport (i.e. Blink, Judge's Intervention), which all have 30-40s CD on them. Phase Traversal's CD is 12s + 35 energy now. Even when adjusted for energy cost, it's still on a much faster CD than most other Utility Teleports. You can still use it at least once while in Shiro every time you swap to Shiro and if you have enough energy and wait an extra 2-3s can use it a 2nd time before leaving Shiro.

I just want to be clear I don't particularly like the change as it does further reduce options for the class at any given point in time. However, that's part of Rev's problem in general; it always has a fair amount of options when played skillfully, which is one of the reasons it's played by higher skill cap players and not played by the lower tier as much, since higher tier players can better capitalize on the variety of options available to them. Finding balance on a class that is built to allow players to do whatever they need to provided they plan for it is always going to be difficult when compared to classes that don't have quite as many options on demand and have to figure out when to more precisely use their high CD utils.

I don't think the revenant gameplay is gone as long as the CDs stay relatively low overall, which is why I don't think the system needs to be changed. 12s is pushing it for a utility skill (especially with the 35e cost), but with such a powerful effect it's understandable that no dev wants it to be spammable like it was on release. If we want powerful effects while also having low CDs on the utils then we may need to be okay with slightly higher CDs on some effects, like Inspiring Reinforcement, Phase Traversal, and Forced Engagement

[Yasai.3549]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:There's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and completely change the Energy System simply because of a few questionable PvP changes. All of these were PvP only, which means the Energy System still is fine in PvE and WvW, and even in PvP this isn't actually as gamebreaking as it may seem. While I generally dislike adding cooldowns to Utility skills for Rev, the Phase Traversal change isn't really that surprising, given that they just bumped Infiltrator's Arrow up to 8 Initiative on thief. Phase Traversal has been fairly out of balance for how often you can teleport when compared to almost every other Utility teleport (i.e. Blink, Judge's Intervention), which all have 30-40s CD on them. Phase Traversal's CD is 12s + 35 energy now. Even when adjusted for energy cost, it's still on a much faster CD than most other Utility Teleports. You can still use it at least once while in Shiro every time you swap to Shiro and if you have enough energy and wait an extra 2-3s can use it a 2nd time before leaving Shiro.

I just want to be clear I don't particularly like the change as it does further reduce options for the class at any given point in time. However, that's part of Rev's problem in general; it always has a fair amount of options when played skillfully, which is one of the reasons it's played by higher skill cap players and not played by the lower tier as much, since higher tier players can better capitalize on the variety of options available to them. Finding balance on a class that is built to allow players to do whatever they need to provided they plan for it is always going to be difficult when compared to classes that don't have quite as many options on demand and have to figure out when to more precisely use their high CD utils.

I don't think the revenant gameplay is gone as long as the CDs stay relatively low overall, which is why I don't think the system needs to be changed. 12s is pushing it for a utility skill (especially with the 35e cost), but with such a powerful effect it's understandable that no dev wants it to be spammable like it was on release. If we want powerful effects while also having low CDs on the utils then we may need to be okay with slightly higher CDs on some effects, like Inspiring Reinforcement, Phase Traversal, and Forced Engagement

Because I'm looking ahead.I can see for a fact that things like Inspiring Reinforcement will definitely be slapped with a 12s cooldown, things like CtA also get slapped with a 12s cooldown, and in general they are ever going to balance Rev by slapping cooldowns on things which were designed to run on a Energy cost + small cooldown system.

Might as well rework it, because if yu have to keep patching a system with bandaids, the system is the problem.For the love of god, we already have a bunch of Elite skills barely used already due to how cost inefficient to use them.

Rev either has to have an Energy rework, or Weapon skills not costing Energy if yu wanna keep the current formula.No other Profession actively kills their own ability to do EVERYTHING by pressing 1 button like Revenant.