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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:TL;DR:It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

This sums up the problem for raids pretty well, their are people who will hate on raids no matter what. And the sad part is that it doesn't matter whether their right or wrong. =(

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:

and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

TL;DR:It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

No matter how many developers worked on raids at that time. As long as the output of all the other teams for almost one year was ZERO, we can conclude that all the productive forces in the game were directed to the raids at that time.

If you consider that introducing the gliding in core Tyria means content .... well, it is your opinion. For me this is not. Moreover, I still consider even now that gliding in core Tyria is something bad for the game.

And reworking the HoT maps - LOL. Do you think that adjusting some numbers on mobs means content? It is more like a balance patch. But, regarding the rework - we still have bugs reported very early after the HoT launch and not solved even today.

Still, you forget to mention how many "reworks" were done on raids. And how many classes were nerfed or buffed according to the performance in raids. You have a Chronomancer sign as your avatar - do you remember how many times the Chrono has been changed in relation to the raid performance? No, the raids were not ignored - according to the way you count the "updates".

As for the legendary armor - I accept your statement - as being the commune view of your group. On the other hand, most of the raiders I know have the opinion I expressed: "I barely await to complete these (3) armors. After that I won't step into raids anymore".

The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

TL;DR:It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

No matter how many developers worked on raids at that time. As long as the output of all the other teams for almost one year was ZERO, we can conclude that all the productive forces in the game were directed to the raids at that time.

No, what we can conclude is that developer resources were tied to things other than game content YOU personally might enjoy. Had the small team of developers not worked on raids, they too might not have been devoted to content YOU enjoy. That is absolutely unrelated to raids.

If you consider that introducing the gliding in core Tyria means content .... well, it is your opinion. For me this is not. Moreover, I still consider even now that gliding in core Tyria is something bad for the game.

And reworking the HoT maps - LOL. Do you think that adjusting some numbers on mobs means content? It is more like a balance patch. But, regarding the rework - we still have bugs reported very early after the HoT launch and not solved even today.

Again, I absolutely do not care what your personal preference is. I was talking from a resource allocation perspective, and the HoT rework (I would remind you that the rework goes as far as changing contribution, progress, AND the entire map mechanics too) as well as bringing gliding to core Tyria were resource hogs which had NOTHING to do with raiding.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:Still, you forget to mention how many "reworks" were done on raids. And how many classes were nerfed or buffed according to the performance in raids. You have a Chronomancer sign as your avatar - do you remember how many times the Chrono has been changed in relation to the raid performance? No, the raids were not ignored - according to the way you count the "updates".

That's class and balance reworks. Those are done by different teams..... and yes, as far as balance for PvE, the game is in a way better state then it ever has been. Or do you forget in what state class balance on damage dealers was during HoT? Class balance to this day is being done for the entire game, in this case more heavily aimed at PvP/WvW at the moment. The main reason it's not noticeable in open world PvE is: open world PvE is so brain dead easy, it needs no individual attention. There is nothing to balance around with open world PvE content.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:As for the legendary armor - I accept your statement - as being the commune view of your group. On the other hand, most of the raiders I know have the opinion I expressed: "I barely await to complete these (3) armors. After that I won't step into raids anymore".

Now take a step back, consider how many players you know who ENJOY raid content, then do a deep personal analysis where your subjective view might come from. I could bring the same argument about how there is players who despise open world content, and I would be just as right if I focused only on that group of players. Maybe, just maybe you are surrounded with players who do not enjoy raid content, that is perfectly fine. You can't argue against the fact though that LI and LD, from a pure availability perspective, have been meaningless for veteran raiders for a very long time.

So I will repeat: the main reason for raid population deterioration is lack of raid content paired with a drop in over all player count.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part.

@Obtena.7952 I completely agree with you in a general business context. While my personal business experience is in industries very different from gaming, I think this principle holds true for almost any consumer-facing operation. Making a product or service that is supposed to be so many things to so many different people is usually the single fastest way to waste investor funds, default on loans, and destroy a company. Even for successful businesses that seem to cover a lot of different bases, their success is not based on that variety, but on some other core competence (usually just one) that helps them deliver that variety in a smarter/more profitable way.

All that being said, I think @maddoctor.2738's point is a good one precisely because I don't see GW2 as just a singular product that tries to do various things. I think it's more constructive to see GW2 as more akin to a brand name under which the company ArenaNet seeks to deliver a variety of different player experiences. In other words, I think the various forms of player experience - not the game as a whole - are what need to be laser-focused on a particular audience. Raids probably shouldn't be diluted to cater to people who want even more handholding than there already is. Open world and story bosses probably shouldn't be made harder, given that many casual playerse somehow find them too difficult even as they are now. Similar things could be said for spvp and wvw, and at least for a while now we've been consistently seeing skill splits that finally separate those modes from pve a bit more.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:

We were told though (or can see ourselves) how many mechanics developed for Raids ended up being used in other parts of the game as well. Fixation, green circles, rotating "flame thrower" attacks, phases in boss fights (including story bosses) with phase transitioning, to name a few. And of course this applies to graphics too, bosses that borrowed design from Raid encounters, Vale Guardian and Slothasor were reused in the open world. How many man-hours did they "save" by having these mechanics developed by the Raid team instead of the living world team?

In my eyes, nothing. They made things worse by poluting game with raid stuff. I don't see rotating flame thrower as an improvement, more degradation. Not even gonna talk about raid-related nerfs.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:And I will ask again, who will make the distinction which offering is consistent and which is not? Why is it that adding strike missions to meta achievements is "inconsistent", but let's say adding griffon races to the game is not. Or adding bounties to daily achievements. Or literally anything new they've added in the game after release. Who is to decide what's is and what isn't?

That distinction is realized when Anet decide to make those deviations in content. Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant. If a player is confronted with enough deviations that make them question the direction Anet is taking the game and how Anet regards them as a customer, they WILL act accordingly, regardless of who makes that distinction.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part.

@Obtena.7952 I completely agree with you in a general business context. While my personal business experience is in industries very different from gaming, I think this principle holds true for almost any consumer-facing operation. Making a product or service that is supposed to be so many things to so many different people is usually the single fastest way to waste investor funds, default on loans, and destroy a company. Even for successful businesses that seem to cover a lot of different bases, their success is
not
based on that variety, but on some other core competence (usually just one) that helps them deliver that variety in a smarter/more profitable way.

All that being said, I think @maddoctor.2738's point is a good one precisely
because
I don't see GW2 as just a singular product that tries to do various things. I think it's more constructive to see GW2 as more akin to a brand name under which the company ArenaNet seeks to deliver a variety of different player experiences. In other words, I think the various forms of player experience -
not
the game as a whole - are what need to be laser-focused on a particular audience. Raids probably shouldn't be diluted to cater to people who want even more handholding than there already is. Open world and story bosses probably shouldn't be made harder, given that many casual playerse somehow find them too difficult even as they are now. Similar things could be said for spvp and wvw, and at least for a while now we've been consistently seeing skill splits that finally separate those modes from pve a bit more.

My problem is that those 'brands' and how they are offered tend to bleed into each other; those are the most egregious IMO. Not only that, but there are more than enough examples of inconsistencies WITHIN a given gamemode 'brand' that have to make you scratch you head and wonder WTH Anet is doing and why.

Strike mission achievements bleeding into meta rewards is a great example of the former. Griffon mount cost is a great example of the latter. These are not isolated instances. I'm betting that even putting aside some notion that 'new content' is a deviation from the norm that some people might mistake for 'inconsistency', there are STILL lots of examples not new-content related that over time, have impacted a significant number of players in this game to cause them to question game direction and Anet's customer understanding.

I agree with you that Anet should laser focus content IF they are going to continue to try to appeal to different types of customers; this is not the direction is heading ATM. Instead we got raid content and methods bleeding into OW PVE ... yeah OK ... and then people turn around and wonder WTH I'm talking about when I say inconsistent content offerings.

Some people aren't trying very hard and playing games like pretending there is some authority that decides what an inconsistency is. If a player gets white for while and they expect white, then they get black, they don't need someone to tell them black is distinct from white to know they were just hit with an inconsistent offering.

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Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.

A boss with a good competent group knowing what to do can clear it in roughly 5 minutes but when you start getting players not knowing what to do or players playing random whack as build it can take hours upon hours (I had a dead eye join on me on twin largos saying hes condi dmg and ended up doing like 2kdps)Also When you start having people who are less experienced who down to mechanics, it takes time for the dps players to come off the rotation and res you up resulting in dps loss, having to do more mechanics or sometimes worse, them downing also from trying to res.

DPS toxicity also exists because alot of boss mechanics can be skipped if your squad dps is high and will lead to less moving around usually

Most of the groups wanting kp are people who dont have the time to be patient for a player to learn mechanics and deal with wiping many times over, hence the kp

For new players to raiding it is a tough time to get into raiding and I struggled through this until I found a good group of people who are skilled at their class but have little knowledge on mechanics. We formed up daily to clear and learn and now we have done almost all the bosses multiple times.

The biggest problem i see is that the game never really teaches you or makes you play a certain build with certain equipments to try maximise you and your squads damage output unless you do cm fractals. So when players new to raids get hit with you need to play this build and do these rotations it becomes extremely difficult for some

To be honest I dont know what anet can do to fix this, I always suggest joining a raid training guild for people it's not quite enough to get new players into raiding.

Difficulty scaling with much less rewards was suggested alot to try interest players into raiding but anet seems uninterested and strike was their answer... which I dont think is doing a good jobBut It is about the only way I can see more people playing raids and I'm happy for a easy mode to come out with lesser rewards, this would really bring in more players to be interested in raiding, keeps all the current raiders happy as the normal mode should still exist, and possibly spark new flames for the devs to create content for raid

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^^ I feel for that position, but we can certainly anticipate what WON'T fix those things ... pissing people off by injecting raid methods and content where it's not wanted. At some point, the music will be faced and hard decisions will have to be made. None of those have good outcomes, but some of them have less bad impacts than others.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

Exactly, it's an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not... I'd let the players decide, as a whole. You might be surprised by the results.

If a player is confronted with enough deviations that make them question the direction Anet is taking the game and how Anet regards them as a customer, they WILL act accordingly, regardless of

Imagine if Anet was afraid to try new things that "deviate" from the usual, because they were afraid that what they present will appear as a different "offering" to their players and cause trouble. Then we wouldn't have all the good things added to the game either and I'm sure there are many new things most players like. Fortunately, Anet isn't that kind of company, they innovate and iterate, which is what makes Guild Wars 2 what it is. If it sticks, it sticks, if it doesn't then it's abandoned.

A live game needs variety. Variety means trying new things. Some will fail others will succeed stagnating to keep offering the same content isn't good for a live service game. In the end, vote with your wallet as they say. And we've seen the results of such a vote very recently

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@DoRi Silvia.4159 said:Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.As someone that was always heavily against raids, i also know and understand why people want KPs, and i do not blame them for doing so. In the end, KPs are not the cause, but merely a symptom of something much deeper. The real problem people have with raids is not that raiders ask for KPs. In the end it is caused by the content practically requiring using some methods of player filtering. And since this is something caused by raid difficulty, and raids are all about being difficult, i don't think it is something that can ever be fixed. Easy mode might be created to not have this flaw, but it's not going to change anything about normal/hard mode. For those, prefiltering group members is always going to happen, because the difficulty of the mode requires it.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids have not
become
the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

This is not my choice. This is the way ANet choose to "force" the raids into the game. Did you hear so many complains regarding the lack of accessibility for Fractals for example/ Or for Dungeons? Why? Because if you don't have an specific interest in doing fractals or dungeons you don't care if this is an accessible content or not. Or if the audience is small or large. What is different with the raids? I pointed already. The raids were "forced" into the game. And the raids were (at that time) the only way to obtain an armor - not a shinny toy or a title or a cosmetic, but an armor. Equal with another armors in terms of battle performance but surpassing everything we knew in terms of QoL. And by allowing all the stats surpassing anything we knew in terms of cost savings.

The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

This oversight has been pointed very early in the HoT life by the players. And ignored by the developers until the release of PoF. Because they realized that by doing the same thing in PoF they will loose even more players. So, this was not an oversight. It was a wrong decision at the start of HoT. Presented after 2 years as an oversight. AH - and about lacking masteries from other areas - well, to not have max mastery on other areas can be a choice for most players. If you decide it is not worth, then you
decide
to not have max mastery. For the raids .... this is another story - see bellow:

Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

Wrong. The raids were designed with the idea to be NOT possible to be completed by the most of the players. This is very different from
challenging content
. And returning to the idea of max mastery - they tied a reward (theoretically for any player - the XP!!) to a content designed to be NOT possible for most of the players. Oversight? Think well. To me this is a wrong decision.

From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

Indeed, the GW2 has seen way way more content that is not raid related. This is true. But you forget that I talked about the 10 months interval after HoT launch - when the content released was raid related only. Ignoring the players requests to repair the mastery "oversight". Ignoring the players requests to fix bugs. Generally speaking, ignoring all the other players requests.

And second - you try to put an equal sign between the raids and open world. The raids designed by the devs from the very beginning to be a niche content played by few players cannot be put on the same level with the open world. The content designed for all the other players. The core of the game. This is the most funny comparation I saw in this debate.

The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:Did you hear so many complains regarding the lack of accessibility for Fractals for example/ Or for Dungeons?

Having been with the game since before release, I can tell you that yes, there were many many complaints regarding both Fractals AND Dungeons. Many asking for an easy mode for Dungeons too. Most complaints about Fractals stopped with the release of Heart of Thorns, when they made significant changes to them, both on the low end, and the high end. But there are still some regarding the higher end of Fractals, having multiple difficulties didn't really stop all of them. Complaints about dungeons still exist to this day but they are mostly from new players struggling to find a group, but the rest of the community moved on. RIP dungeons.

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:The raids have not
become
the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

This is not my choice. This is the way ANet choose to "force" the raids into the game. Did you hear so many complains regarding the lack of accessibility for Fractals for example/ Or for Dungeons? Why? Because if you don't have an specific interest in doing fractals or dungeons you don't care if this is an accessible content or not. Or if the audience is small or large. What is different with the raids? I pointed already. The raids were "forced" into the game. And the raids were (at that time) the only way to obtain an armor - not a shinny toy or a title or a cosmetic, but an armor. Equal with another armors in terms of battle performance but surpassing everything we knew in terms of QoL. And by allowing all the stats surpassing anything we knew in terms of cost savings.

See what maddoctor.2738 answered. In short: yes, players complained a lot about dungeons and fractals. They do to this day. The main reason some complaints have subsided for dungeons is that the content sees less focus by the community. As far as fractals, those have seen multiple reworks and additions of support classes to make the content less skill required while shitting out rewards way out of proportion.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

This oversight has been pointed very early in the HoT life by the players. And ignored by the developers until the release of PoF. Because they realized that by doing the same thing in PoF they will loose even more players. So, this was not an oversight. It was a wrong decision at the start of HoT. Presented after 2 years as an oversight. AH - and about lacking masteries from other areas - well, to not have max mastery on other areas can be a choice for most players. If you decide it is not worth, then you
decide
to not have max mastery. For the raids .... this is another story - see bellow:

and none of that was the fault of raids, or players enjoying raids.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

Wrong. The raids were designed with the idea to be NOT possible to be completed by the most of the players. This is very different from
challenging content
. And returning to the idea of max mastery - they tied a reward (theoretically for any player - the XP!!) to a content designed to be NOT possible for most of the players. Oversight? Think well. To me this is a wrong decision.

No, challenging content literally means:(the situation of being faced with) something that needs great mental or physical effort in order to be done successfully and therefore tests a person's ability

It automatically excludes the part of the player base which is unwilling or unable to perform. What some might perceive as challenging content might vary since challenge in and of its self is subjective. The raid content was designed with a certain challenge threshold in mind, and within that area provides different challenging bosses while retaining a certain base level of concept (10 player focus, a certain minimum amount of damage, specific mechanics which need addressing, etc).

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

Indeed, the GW2 has seen way way more content that is not raid related. This is true. But you forget that I talked about the 10 months interval after HoT launch - when the content released was raid related only. Ignoring the players requests to repair the mastery "oversight". Ignoring the players requests to fix bugs. Generally speaking, ignoring all the other players requests.

You still don't seem to understand that the small team which worked on the raid content had nothing to do with the fact that other PvE content was not delivered. The majority of the dev team were actively working on the games PvE and redesigning HoT AFTER it launched. I've mentioned both huge projects they were working on, zone rework and gliding, both of which were only possible to work on AFTER the actual launch. Also given we know it takes around 6 months per living world episode, and given the first episode of season 3 launched in July, the first open world teams started working on this episode as early as January of that year.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:And second - you try to put an equal sign between the raids and open world. The raids designed by the devs from the very beginning to be a niche content played by few players cannot be put on the same level with the open world. The content designed for all the other players. The core of the game. This is the most funny comparation I saw in this debate.

I am not equating anything. Raids have and always had a niche team work on them. So from a developer resource perspective, and by past official statements, raids were fine and even outperformed initial expectations.

Here is the issue I have:it's not the raid crowd or challenging instanced content crowd that demands resources be stripped from other game modes. At best, player just want the niche team and niche effort which was put into the mode to remain to some extent consistent.

The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join, since for years one of the main complaints was lack of access to easy mode raids (something I often disagreed with since I never believed in the need for them to succeed). It's only recently that players have started voicing their dissatisfaction of introductory raids, aka strike missions, proving one of my past points: players who do not want to play instanced content don't care about its difficulty, contrary to what many claimed over the years. I personally believe just having more regular raid content would have been better, yet that ship has sailed.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@DoRi Silvia.4159 said:Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.As someone that was always heavily against raids, i also know and understand why people want KPs, and i do not blame them for doing so. In the end, KPs are not the cause, but merely a symptom of something much deeper. The real problem people have with raids is not that raiders ask for KPs. In the end it is caused by the content practically requiring using some methods of player filtering. And since this is something caused by raid difficulty, and raids are all about being difficult, i don't think it is something that can ever be fixed. Easy mode might be created to not have this flaw, but it's not going to change anything about normal/hard mode. For those, prefiltering group members is
always
going to happen, because the difficulty of the mode requires it.

Yes, correct. Creating a easy mode for raids won't change normal mode or cm but that's what we want and need to happen if we are to satisfy players with lesser skill/exp.Easy mode will allow these players to taste what raids are like, with a much lesser toxicity level.If these players want LI or leggy armor then you progress onto normal mode and really prepare for it (look up snowcrow, use correct build and gear and rotations)If that is too hard for some then just simply dont do normal mode as the easy mode will still exist.

Most players currently wanting to try raids cannot due to kp and experience etcCurrent exp raiders dont want the current normal raid difficulty changed as it is a good challenge.

Easy mode will allow players to finally get their 8 raid mastery points as well as seeing the lore behind raids and get a sense of clearing it.

Honestly, easy mode is the only way anet can satisfy both party and interest more players into raiding....( strike mission is not the answer anet!!!!)

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

Exactly,
it's
an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not...

OK what are you referring to when you say 'IT'S'? My statement there is in context of what inconsistencies individuals feel impact them negatively. Yes, it's definitely an individuals players opinion if some inconsistency is something they like or not ... and let's be clear ... I have NEVER told ANYONE what inconsistencies they should be good with or not. So no, i'm not pretending I'm some kind of authority on what inconsistencies players should be good with or not ...

It's definitely NOT an opinion that it's general a pretty bad idea to present customers with inconsistent product offerings. Honestly, at this point, I think your just fishing for things you can create a confusing argument over. You need to take a step back and figure it out; I doubt I can be any more clear for you.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :''common dont be casual ,speed the things upi dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''(a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

Congrats .... the population is devided :Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they doWhoever dont wanna do it , they dontThe raids because of low population is discontinuedJust like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewards

What is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their arse , for once per week Raid ?

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The title of this debate was "
Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience
". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join

We both know that the history will repeat itself .

This time , the company in 1 year if they dont see the results needed , they should drop and continue with Strike Misions .Having 1 hard boss every month , rather than 3 in 3 months , doesnt matterThose niche players regadles what happens , they will move to other games and say : '' the downfall of the game was because of the Casuals and the Companies for not releasing fast enought content'' . Either in 1 year or 5 or how long the game lasts.Those players are simply a moving ''burned card''

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?

Yes. Those individuals who think they are above the requirements set by the squad leader and think they are gods gift to this earth who deserve to be the exception are toxic. If they dont want to meet the groups requirements then they shouldnt join the group. They should start their own group, free of the kp dps requirements they hate so much. There are plenty of open worlders who play like them that they can party with to do raids. Why are they trying to force their way into high kp groups?

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Before I started raiding, I read forums. All I found was about how toxic raiders are. Reading that got me into not playing raids. Until 3 months ago when I thought I should at least try it. Downloaded discord, got into RA and ran some training here and there, VERY casually. Didn't youtube any boss, didn't use any snowcrows builds, I just did my thing and listened to the instructor. Here I am 3 months later with 136 LI's and enough kp's and I actually started to like raiding. Got into it cause I wanted Coalescence, but after getting it, I think I'm gonna keep on raiding - for me raiding is fun and pretty rewarding. I never got into any toxic elitist group, on the contrary - most groups I've been into were really fun, having fun, making all kind of stupid jokes and just having a blast while raiding. Discord groups or just pugs from LFG - never had a toxic elitist group experience. My advice - don't trust the forums, don't read he forums about how toxic raiders are, but form your own opinion on that, but only after actually putting more than 4 hours (not at once) into basic training (as in learning some of the boss mechanic, cause with time you'll learn bosses pretty good). It takes a while, but you'll see that it's not that bad. Don't take my word for it, but don't take anyone else's word for it either. Just try it yourself. P.S. I'm not a hardcore player, maybe I'm getting close to being an average player.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?

Yes. Those individuals who think they are above the requirements set by the squad leader and think they are gods gift to this earth who deserve to be the exception are toxic. If they dont want to meet the groups requirements then they shouldnt join the group. They should start their own group, free of the kp dps requirements they hate so much. There are plenty of open worlders who play like them that they can party with to do raids. Why are they trying to force their way into high kp groups?

Because they lack the expiriance , and are not willing to start something they havent done before ?Rather than simply reaching your hand to them , you simply gave them , the same answer like you do now ?Forcing people in mega-training -Raids , till they complete their Legendary Set , skipping entrirly the LFG because of the increasing Killproof requiements ?Training guild are doing the easier bosses , they get half the KP than normal raiders .Plus lack knowleghe about the 3rd boss in each istance , which is the hardest/dont know tactics/trainig group are not doing them

You can have itDont come back begging them , to come and populate the Raid , so the company can invest more moneyNor support raid posts into reddit

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :''common dont be casual ,speed the things upi dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''(a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

Congrats .... the population is devided :Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they doWhoever dont wanna do it , they dontThe raids because of low population is discontinuedJust like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewards

What is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their kitten ,

Tbh if you put in lfg for dungeons, slow run all cutscenes, and they start to speed run it wouldn't you call that toxic?

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@I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:Before I started raiding, I read forums. All I found was about how toxic raiders are. Reading that got me into not playing raids. Until 3 months ago when I thought I should at least try it. Downloaded discord, got into RA and ran some training here and there, VERY casually. Didn't youtube any boss, didn't use any snowcrows builds, I just did my thing and listened to the instructor. Here I am 3 months later with 136 LI's and enough kp's and I actually started to like raiding. Got into it cause I wanted Coalescence, but after getting it, I think I'm gonna keep on raiding - for me raiding is fun and pretty rewarding. I never got into any toxic elitist group, on the contrary - most groups I've been into were really fun, having fun, making all kind of stupid jokes and just having a blast while raiding. Discord groups or just pugs from LFG - never had a toxic elitist group experience. My advice - don't trust the forums, don't read he forums about how toxic raiders are, but form your own opinion on that, but only after actually putting more than 4 hours (not at once) into basic training (as in learning some of the boss mechanic, cause with time you'll learn bosses pretty good). It takes a while, but you'll see that it's not that bad. Don't take my word for it, but don't take anyone else's word for it either. Just try it yourself. P.S. I'm not a hardcore player, maybe I'm getting close to being an average player.

This is exactly it and the reason I dont post much raid related things on the forums...People who post on the forum about raids are mostly the salty people that have been burnt or is salty about the current raids .. there is not much sense rather alot of negativity and sourness towards raids in the forums....the rest are online clearing

As he also said, definitely give raiding a go before reading forum posts about it because at the end of the day YOU are to decide if you like it or not

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

Exactly,
it's
an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not...

OK what are you referring to when you say 'IT'S'? My statement there is in context of what inconsistencies individuals feel impact them negatively. Yes, it's definitely an individuals players opinion if some inconsistency is something they like or not ... and let's be clear ... I have NEVER told ANYONE what inconsistencies they should be good with or not. So no, i'm not pretending I'm some kind of authority on what inconsistencies players should be good with or not ...

Yet negative impact is up to the player. So you never said that Raids are bad for the game?

It's definitely NOT an opinion that it's general a pretty bad idea to present customers with inconsistent product offerings. Honestly, at this point, I think your just fishing for things you can create a confusing argument over. You need to take a step back and figure it out; I doubt I can be any more clear for you.

Actually at this point it's clear that you lack basic understanding of how businesses, and service providers, work in real life. Offering something new and adding variety to your offerings (which by definition are both "inconsistent offerings" since they did not exist before) is the bread and butter of a successful service provider.

To return to your very first example on McDonald's: McDonald's launched in the 1940s offering exclusively burgers. In 1980s they started offering chicken products, a completely different product offering. Also around 1980 they started offering products aimed at children (Happy Meal). In the 1960s they added fish products. There is more to what they offer and how it has changed over the years. In some countries they are offering veggie burgers, another different product line. You can say that McDonald's has expanded their offerings to create variety and get more customers.

My local bakery started selling cheese-bread a few years ago and it became rather popular. Famous Pizza outlets started offering Spaghetti together with their varieties of Pizza.

Microsoft launched their first operating system in the 1980s. In 2001 they released their game console, expanding their company's portfolio and client base. Meanwhile their major OS, Windows, has offered a huge variety of new subprograms and ideas over the years as it's a giant mix of various different components aimed at different people.

In 2012 Guild Wars 2 launched, offering content through one-time episodes, in 2013 they changed the way they offer their content to time-limited episodes instead. In 2014 they started offering their content through permanent episodes and in 2015 they switched to an expansion model. Every year they changed the way they offered their content, being inconsistent. They changed because they expected change to help, then found out which version would stick and be the best way to offer content. Which is what service providers should always strive to do.

I'm sure you can see the same happening with any successful business and any successful service provider. Demonizing change and "inconsistency" is a terrible idea. Adding Raids wasn't a bad idea for Arenanet, it brought in new customers, it revitalized the interest of old customers, it brought back old customers that quit. The question isn't whether inconsistency is bad, but to figure out the end results of it, if they lead to prosperity or ruin, and act accordingly.

The one that needs to rethink their argumentation is you because it's a fact that's it's wrong.

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :''common dont be casual ,speed the things upi dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''(a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

But, in order to answer your question:Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:Congrats .... the population is devided :Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they doWhoever dont wanna do it , they dontThe raids because of low population is discontinuedJust like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewardsWhat is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their kitten , for once per week Raid ?

You are putting two things together which have nothing to do with each other. I've been raiding since the beginning of HoT (and did dungeons and fractals ever since they got introduced). There has always been players who are better able or willing to adapt to a groups requirements, and those who just want to do their thing without regard to what a collective group might want.

This has nothing to do with speed running or not. In dungeons this worked to some extent, even while there was toxicity, because the reward at the end was almost guaranteed. Only the time to get it was different. In raids, that's no as simple, since being objectively not good enough due to lack of practice or experience locks the entire group out of rewards.

As far as the raid community shooting themselves in the own foot, again there is a vast amount of resources AND groups available to new players.

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The title of this debate was "
Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience
". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join

We both know that the history will repeat itself .

This time , the company in 1 year if they dont see the results needed , they should drop and continue with Strike Misions .Having 1 hard boss every month , rather than 3 in 3 months , doesnt matterThose niche players regadles what happens , they will move to other games and say : '' the downfall of the game was because of the Casuals and the Companies for not releasing fast enought content'' . Either in 1 year or 5 or how long the game lasts.Those players are simply a moving ''burned card''

Oh I absolutely agree, veteran raiders, or players who enjoy challenging content, are leaving the game currently. I would certainly have taken a break if it wasn't for the current raid static and the people in it as well as my WvW guild.

@I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:Before I started raiding, I read forums. All I found was about how toxic raiders are. Reading that got me into not playing raids. Until 3 months ago when I thought I should at least try it. Downloaded discord, got into RA and ran some training here and there, VERY casually. Didn't youtube any boss, didn't use any snowcrows builds, I just did my thing and listened to the instructor.

No no no, that is absolutely impossible. Players who raid are toxic as f. You did it wrong, you were supposed to simply join random groups with high LI/KP requirements, get kicked and then come and complain about how toxic raiders are. Please try again. /s

@I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:Here I am 3 months later with 136 LI's and enough kp's and I actually started to like raiding. Got into it cause I wanted Coalescence, but after getting it, I think I'm gonna keep on raiding - for me raiding is fun and pretty rewarding. I never got into any toxic elitist group, on the contrary - most groups I've been into were really fun, having fun, making all kind of stupid jokes and just having a blast while raiding. Discord groups or just pugs from LFG - never had a toxic elitist group experience. My advice - don't trust the forums, don't read he forums about how toxic raiders are, but form your own opinion on that, but only after actually putting more than 4 hours (not at once) into basic training (as in learning some of the boss mechanic, cause with time you'll learn bosses pretty good). It takes a while, but you'll see that it's not that bad. Don't take my word for it, but don't take anyone else's word for it either. Just try it yourself. P.S. I'm not a hardcore player, maybe I'm getting close to being an average player.

On a more serious note, congratulations and it's refreshing to once again read another successful story where someone has started raiding. The content is some of the most fun you can have with a group of people in this game.

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