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Cantha and Elder Dragons, fun theory for the future.


Teratus.2859

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I find it very unlikely.

It makes sense Jormag would pull this kind of stunt, given that its always been somewhat manipulative and communicative, but Primordus has shown literally zero cares about mortals. Primi doesn't even seem to care about corrupting mortal races, instead just making its own minions out of rock and lava. I don't see him trying the same thing Jormag is trying now.

I don't see Bubbles doing it with Cantha either.

I don't see Bubbles doing it with Canthans, but I can see Canthans worshipping the dragon. Due to Jade Sea and seclusion from Tyria and Elona, they've always had a fairly intimate connection with the sea. Mind you, it'd be interesting to see what's the connection saltspray dragons (see GW1) have with the elder dragons, if any.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area.

Ignoring the fact I just said it isn't just him:

The DSD is in the depths of the ocean. Suggested by the placement of quaggans, krait, and karka (namely their lack of appearance along the Elonian shore), to be southwest of Tyria.

Cantha is above water. Due south of Tyria.

I'm not sure how this is "allegedly in the same general area". Nothing in lore ever suggests the two are related, except for a very ambiguous line about Canthan sailors sporadically washing ashore. But that could have been attributed to Zhaitan for all we know, really.

But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha
will
include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire.

And of course, this is only as true as ArenaNet wants it to be true.

First off, to be fair I didn't see your response until after I'd posted my own, so I wasn't ignoring it.

As to the locations of Cantha and the DSD, the facts are that we don't know exactly where the DSD is and the EDs are known to move from place to place now and then. And I'll admit that I could be off base with this but it just makes sense to me that a Deep Sea Dragon would be more mobile. yeah, I'll admit that the phrase "same general area" wasn't the best choice of words, what I should have said is that out of all the Dragons the DSD is the most likely to be close enough to Cantha to be useful or relevant to the plot of a Canthan xpack/Living Story.

Ok, so its technically possible that Anet could all collectively go full retard and radically change the very nature of the overarching theme of GW2 and not have the ED's somehow be relevant to the plot of a Cantha xpak/LS, but I don't think even the most cynical here would think that would happen. I'm reasonably sure it was you that said that the overarching storyline of the EDs were the story of GW2 and that we'd probably never see a post-ED GW2 (Ok, maybe it was Drax or Aaron that said that, but my point still stands).

And I dunno, if you or anyone else are genuinely that sick of the DSD and Cantha fan theories, maybe just don't read the threads explicitly about that, and if nothing else don't try and discourage us from discussing it.

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O.O Seriously!!

I thought that was a prank at first but it's right on the home page!Confirming a new expansion out of nowhere and of course the "Feel the Winds of Change" comment, that's a straight up throwback to Gw1 and Cantha at the same time :D

I am so kitten hyped right now ^^

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I was wondering if we would get a vision of the past revolving around the refugees from Drizzlewood. We had, what, Norn, Human, and Tengu all living relatively peacefully in the same area and either exterminated or forced to evacuate from the Charr. Perhaps this will be a tie into us making a stronger alliance with The Dominion of the Four Winds Tengu as the story progresses. How that would lead us to Cantha I'm not sure. Unless we find out that there were some Tengu that weren't expelled from Cantha and act as scouts to the Dominion Tengu and reveal some information that forces us to go down there ourselves.

Seems like that would be pretty unnecessary when we have Aurene or Elona that could provide the same intel.

Then there's also the tunnel system that leads all the way from the Shiverpeaks to Elona which seems increasingly likely as we've had more and more Dwarven involvement.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its turning back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XDDouble Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its
turning
back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XDDouble Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

Yea I agree I don't want the Jade sea totally turned back either, if anything i'd like to see some parts of it still frozen in jade, some islands here and there, some jade some not and large chunks of jade layering the depths of the sea too with perhaps some underwater tunnels going through parts of it.

There could even be entire sections of the sea trapped under that Jade like caverns which have turned back to water but are encased in jade and only accessable via said tunnels.Could end up fighting creatures still semi trapped in Jade with map design like that.

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  • 4 months later...

What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).So we get the mysterious stranger helper guy/dragon and instead of the kill the dragon find substitute we get return of the king kind of deal.

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@Vancho.8750 said:What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).

Shouldn't be possible. Dragon minions are enslaved to their Elder Dragon's will. The only way a dragon minion could revolt would be if the Elder Dragon did what Aurene did to Caithe, however, the DSD corrupts water into minions, similar to destroyers being made from rock and lava, and water doesn't have its own will so without the DSD's will it'd just be like a comatose elemental.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).

Shouldn't be possible. Dragon minions are enslaved to their Elder Dragon's will. The only way a dragon minion could revolt would be if the Elder Dragon did what Aurene did to Caithe, however, the DSD corrupts water into minions, similar to destroyers being made from rock and lava, and water doesn't have its own will so without the DSD's will it'd just be like a comatose elemental.We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know fuck all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

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@"Vancho.8750" said:We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

I doubt the Canthans have put up any significant resistance against the dragon. If they had, the water dragon wouldn't still be crunching Canthan boats left and right, preventing them from making contact with Tyria/Elona.

The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

I doubt the Canthans have put up any significant resistance against the dragon. If they had, the water dragon wouldn't still be crunching Canthan boats left and right, preventing them from making contact with Tyria/Elona.

The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

Where have there been Canthan sailors washing up?

I thought they were self-isolationists rather than forced by some elder dragon?

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@"Vancho.8750" said:We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions.

We do have some information, actually. Not much, but some. It could easily get retconned, but what we have is:

In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_WorldThis is either embellished (aka unreliable narrator) or retconned, given that the DSD's minions haven't "[risen] from every lake and river of the land", but it does establish that the DSD corrupts water itself to create minions, as Primordus corrupts lava to create minions. Either way, the DSD corrupting water has yet to be contradicted.

Veteran Water Foreman: Ridiculous. How big can it be? And couldn't they snare a smaller one?Water Lead Scientist: You saw the hologram of it. That thing is a monster.Veteran Water Foreman: Oh, that one. Okay, I guess we'll need to overhaul the hub, then.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Coil_Reactor#Ambient_dialogueTells us that the DSD's minions are pretty dang big. At least, the one the Inquest captured.

Asuran PC: What are these waterspouts? They're salt water.Charr PC: Waterspouts? What? Hmm, salty.Sylvari PC: Salt water? What the...Norn PC: Is that the smell of brine? Mixed with the smell of blood.Human PC: I smell the ocean.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/City_of_Hope#DialogueDuring a trial that introduces dragon minions one by one, instead of DSD minions it gives us water, what they are made of according to The Movement of the World, which rather supports the Movement's statement.

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_FieldWhich gives us a rough location of where the minions can be found, and implies that they appear like sea creatures "hereto unknown". If they were corrupted sea creatures, then they would have enough resemblance to be known.

@"Vancho.8750" said:It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem.

First off, Mordremoth is not a creator dragon, but a corruptor. It corrupts living plants into its minions. Technically all six are corruptors, since they're all corrupting something into minions - it's just that Primordus and the DSD are the only Elder Dragons to primarily prefer corrupting inanimate elements into minions.

I am not assuming they'd be more like destroyers rather than mordrem, I'm postulating based on known evidence - the mordrem were still created from living entities, even if said entities were plants. And plants in Guild Wars' universe seem to have enough sapience to them to have a will of their own even if lacking communication and mobility most of the time (the "living plants" enemy type such as Iboga, oakhearts, etc. are proof of this).

If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.

Most mordrem were mindless, like your typical dragon minion grunt, but were given micromanagement by Mordremoth directly making them seem more intelligent when they weren't (like comparing RTS's where the player manages every action they can, versus letting it run on auto); it was the Mordrem Guard who are more akin to the Frost Legion that weren't. Technically speaking, Mordrem Guard were not corrupted, but convinced to join Mordremoth - Mordremoth had to use more traditional styled mental conditioning to turn sylvari into Mordrem Guard, as it couldn't corrupt sylvari.

If you exclude the sylvari / Mordrem Guard, mordrem as as mindless as your standard branded and destroyer. The most intelligent "grunts" are risen and icebrood as only they speak (and even then, the only icebrood grunts to speak are icebrood quaggans oddly enough). Though there are more "low level lieutenants" among icebrood and risen compared to branded.

Besides, there's zero evidence to suggest any kind of shoehorn grouping - why can't risen be one of a kind in their apparent level of intelligence? Even then, that little intelligence that they had which allowed them to say one-liners upon finding, killing, or dying to an enemy all diminished greatly with Zhaitan's death implying that said intelligence was not due to the minion, but due to their active connection to Zhaitan.

And to play the devil's advocate and use your logic, the shoehorn 3-and-3 grouping would pretty clearly be mordrem/risen/icebrood as the "intelligent" minions, and thus branded/destroyers/DSDminions as the unintelligent ones.

There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.While plausible, very unlikely. Current lore indicates that the DSD is southwest of Tyria, and northwest of Cantha - ergo, more west than south of Tyria. While sailors from Cantha have met its apparent minions, there's no indication that Cantha's mainland has yet.

If Cantha is involved with the DSD, it will likely be a recent development much like Kralkatorrik flying to Elona after the events of HoT, and not during the timespan of unclear activity in the 10 years after fighting Destiny's Edge and killing Glint.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

More of "messing around in the Clashing Seas" than with Canthans, really. Hard to say outright with the lack of exploring that side of lore, but if the Canthan ships they send north keep getting taken out, then they may not even be aware of the DSD.

Based on the lore of the DSD, with quaggans, krait, and karka taking refuge in the Sea of Sorrows and Strait of Malchor instead of Elonian shoreline (only presence of those three there is karka in Sandswept Isle which were brought there by the Inquest for scarab plague testing by all indication), that would imply a more northern presence than southern. Won't stop the DSD from moving there just in time for expansion 3 or season 6 or something, but I imagine that if Canthans knew of the DSD, and since they definitely know of Zephyrites and airships (even if just the Zephyrite kind), I imagine they wouldn't leave it to a few, occasional ships to try to reopen contact with Tyria/Elona.

@"Bast.7253" said:Where have there been Canthan sailors washing up?

I thought they were self-isolationists rather than forced by some elder dragon?

Original line:

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

More recent update:

Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field

The whole "self-isolation" is a bit of a false interpretation of the Movement's lore, btw. In Sea of Sorrows novel, it's established that Cantha still had open trade with Kryta up until Zhaitan's rise. Similarly, during Festival of the Four Winds 2014, the Zephyrites had just returned from Cantha whom they traded with. Cantha's isolationism wasn't full out closed borders, unlike Elona which was legally closed off from Tyria's side. Ultimately, it was Zhaitan's fleet of dead ships and the DSD's minions that forced that isolationism, and not Tyrian or Canthan governments.

Cantha just went into a stricter rule (which included forcing the Kurzocks and Luxons fully into the empire rather than being distant vassals) that saw many people leaving, refused to accept immigration, and then kicked the tengu (and according to them / the Movement, all non-humans) out of the nation.

TL;DRCanthans seem fully open to trade and contact - they just have no land or rooms for sale to non-Canthan humans.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Based on the lore of the DSD, with quaggans, krait, and karka taking refuge in the Sea of Sorrows and Strait of Malchor instead of Elonian shoreline (only presence of those three there is karka in Sandswept Isle which were brought there by the Inquest for scarab plague testing by all indication), that would imply a more northern presence than southern. Won't stop the DSD from moving there just in time for expansion 3 or season 6 or something, but I imagine that if Canthans knew of the DSD, and since they definitely know of Zephyrites and airships (even if just the Zephyrite kind), I imagine they wouldn't leave it to a few, occasional ships to try to reopen contact with Tyria/Elona.If the DSD was more northern then southern we would expect to see more Tyrian ships be impacted by it, but, so far, only Canthan, and Elonian, ships have been mentioned as being harassed. The fact that a small boat was able to take us from Amnoon in the Crystal Desert, past Fort Trinity, around Orr, and then all the way to Istan, without any sort of harassment, not only suggests that Zhaitan's navy has been cleaned up, but that the water dragon isn't in that area. Even in regards to Elona, we see that the corsairs have maintained a naval fleet, and make no mention of the water dragon or its minions bothering them around Elona.

This again suggests that the water dragon and its minions are more south, in the waters bwteen Cantha and Istan, while Istan and more northward is clearer, or was under Zhaitan's undead navy's control. before that got taken down.

I would take a guess its probably closer to around where the battle isles were before they sunk. Thiswould also fit the Karka's movement patterns, without having to make the assumption the Inquest brought them to the Sandsweapt Isles

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.
Which gives us a rough location of where the minions can be found, and implies that they appear like sea creatures "hereto unknown". If they were corrupted sea creatures, then they would have enough resemblance to be known.

It is worth noting that we do have examples of previously unknown sea creatures showing up due to being displaced by the DSD, such as the karka. If the karka were unknown to land-dwellers until Southsun was introduced despite being regarded as ancient by deep sea dwellers such as the largos, it seems likely that there are additional natural sea creatures that remain unknown.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:If the DSD was more northern then southern we would expect to see more Tyrian ships be impacted by it, but, so far, only Canthan, and Elonian, ships have been mentioned as being harassed. The fact that a small boat was able to take us from Amnoon in the Crystal Desert, past Fort Trinity, around Orr, and then all the way to Istan, without any sort of harassment, not only suggests that Zhaitan's navy has been cleaned up, but that the water dragon isn't in that area. Even in regards to Elona, we see that the corsairs have maintained a naval fleet, and make no mention of the water dragon or its minions bothering them around Elona.

This again suggests that the water dragon and its minions are more south, in the waters bwteen Cantha and Istan, while Istan and more northward is clearer, or was under Zhaitan's undead navy's control. before that got taken down.

You wouldn't really see Tyrian ships be impacted by the DSD's minions due to Zhaitan. I never contested that Zhaitan's fleet had greater presence closer to Tyria, but that wouldn't stop the DSD from moving in afterwards (not to say it was - I don't think it's gotten notably closer to Tyria, but perhaps it has to Elona now that we're getting Elonian sailor reports?). Furthermore, Zhaitan didn't seem to much presence in the Clashing Seas itself, whereas the DSD is definitely implied to.

Which is to say, I'd argue the DSD is in (or west of) the northern Clashing Seas, while Zhaitan was north of the Clashing Seas.

As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence, and it's implied to not be a brand new path either; it'd make more sense if it went through the Elon, but waterfalls prevent this), the ship still stuck close to the shore (a vessel of that size wouldn't survive in the far open seas). The deep sea dragon is, well, deep sea, so it isn't likely to have a presence near the more shallow waters (yet). Besides, if Dragonfall didn't reveal its minions, then neither would a small vessel sticking within marginal distance to the shore.

And one more key thing is that, so far, no Tyrian vessel is known to go out into the Clashing Seas - we don't have any indication of Tyrian ships daring the seas beyond the Strait of Malchor yet, and if they do, they at best keep closer to the shore in a route towards Istan.

I would take a guess its probably closer to around where the battle isles were before they sunk. Thiswould also fit the Karka's movement patterns, without having to make the assumption the Inquest brought them to the Sandsweapt Isles

If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?

And it isn't an assumption that the Inquest brought the karka to Sandswept Isles - there's two indicators that proves it's so:

  1. There is zero karka nesting in Sandswept Isle. Yet there is in even Ring of Fire where their presence is rather small. In other words, local karka presence = karka nesting present.
  2. The story instances tell us that the Inquest were capturing samples and bringing them to the lab; on top of that, thanks to our own actions, the test subjects were teleported out of the base into the surrounding areas (can't remember if this was forced or optional to the player during The Test Subject instance, but I do remember teleporting out living and unaffected test subjects).
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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence,Not really. The war against the Risen ended years ago, and Zhaitan's fleets and such were mostly destroyed by the Pact in that time. The remaining Risen are nowhere near as organized due to being "unchained" and wouldn't pose much of a problem off land by the time of PoF.

If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?Because that doesn't make much sense.

Looking at the world map. If the DSD was near the Battle Isles, and the Krait, Quaggan, and Largos in the deep oceans just to the north of the isles, and was pushing them up, we would expect to see them where we do see them. Elona would be a right right detour for most of them.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence,Not really. The war against the Risen ended years ago, and Zhaitan's fleets and such were mostly destroyed by the Pact in that time. The remaining Risen are nowhere near as organized due to being "unchained" and wouldn't pose much of a problem off land by the time of PoF.So you're arguing that the path
only
existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko and Tyrian patrols.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?Because that doesn't make much sense.

Looking at the world map. If the DSD was near the Battle Isles, and the Krait, Quaggan, and Largos in the deep oceans just to the north of the isles, and was pushing them up, we would expect to see them where we do see them. Elona would be a right right detour for most of them.

Your argument makes no sense, and actually only counters your argument that the DSD is near the Battle Isles.

If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.

Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.

Now, about the DSD being at the Battle Isles - unless our old lore gets retconned, then we know for a fact that the DSD did not wake up near there:

In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_WorldWhile we don't know which sea, the Battle Isles most certainly are not "the deepest waters" of the Clashing Seas. And given the krait, karka, and quaggans, the only viable seas would be the Clashing Seas that lies between Tyria/Elona and Cantha, or some unnamed-to-players sea to the west.

Incidentally, this description of where it woke is close to the description of the krait's home before being pushed out by the DSD:

This slave-keeping, aquatic race had been denizens of deep trenches, but they suddenly erupted into traditionally quaggan lands, destroying their civilization.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mostly_Harmless_QuagganAs oceanic trenches tend to be the deepest parts of the seas they're a part of, there's a good chance the krait were on top of the DSD, much like Orr was on top of Zhaitan. Thus, like the kodan, they likely scattered in all directions, while the quaggans and karka fled in a cone-shaped migration away from the krait and by extension DSD.

So while the DSD might now be located near the sunken Battle Isles, it certainly didn't begin there.

All of this is why I have been arguing that the DSD is, in fact, west of the Battle Isles (possibly a bit north, too), and that the quaggans, krait, and karka migrated northeast to avoid the DSD. And that this is why they aren't in Elona.

And while I'm sure ArenaNet has long forgotten these pieces of lore, there are more obscure lore from GW1 that pushes the DSD's "deepest parts of the ocean" further away from Elona. Such as this bit from the Nightfall manual:

The corsairs have remained free by learning to survive in treacherous waters, sailing where the Istani will not or cannot follow. Their fleets remain hidden near the most dangerous stretches of the Elonian coast. Between the northwest coast of Cantha and the southern rim of Elona, a deadly sea is troubled by sudden storms and cyclones, hidden reefs, and dangerous sea creatures. These waters were once navigated by fearless Luxon raiders from Cantha, and to this day, brigands from many cultures search for secret coves hidden by these deadly waters.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Corsair

You won't get reefs that can hinder ships in the deepest parts of the seas. Though one could retcon the reefs and "dangerous sea creatures" into being the krait and their Deeps, this would counteract the above movement possibilities.

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I'd also like to throw in here that the cloest point we have ever been to the open ocean and thus at the greatest risk of encountering the DSD or it's minions was when we took a Charr Submarine to Draconis Mons.

Pretty sure we landed on the south/SW side of that island as well and since then we've also dropped an Elder Dragon and 3 giant chunks of God Realms into that ocean too without even making the DSD curious..So there is a good chance DSD is likely still somewhere far out into the Ocean and keeping away from Tyrians.. probbaly doesn't even care about us at the moment or could still be busy attacking someone or something else.Or it could be laying on the bottom of the ocean somewhere pigging out on magic.. we just don't know.

What I'd expect though is that when/if the DSD does come to the mainland it will not come personally, it would send it's minions first and so far it hasn't even done that.If it does make minions from water then attacking coastal areas would be expected.. but then we know nothing about these minions.. do they need a water source to continue existing? could they survive long outside of water? we don't know.. but without minions that could survive on land for long periods of time then there is no real point for DSD to come near land or attack it anyway.Not unless it planned to tsunami entire areas first which some artwork has suggested it maybe capable of, it's still a lot of what if's though and we just don't know enough about this thing or it's minions at this point.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:So you're arguing that the path only existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko and Tyrian patrols.Konig, Elona is a a very specific region of the world. Elona itself doesn't technically begin until the Joko Wall. Everything north of that is part of the Crystal Desert, which is part of Tyria.

We have NPCs in Amnoon talking about the branded cutting off their northern trade routes, and, lo and behold, in the northern part of the Desert Highlands, there is a passage to Ebonhawke thats been collapsed by the Branded, with an NPC standing around talking about it. This is likewise confirmed by the Desert Gate guards in Ebonhawke, who mention that the gate into the desert was sealed off because of the branded moving in. Joko only controls Elona, Elona ends at the Joko Wall, and Joko has no real control over anything north of the wall besides that one small village. Joko never had any ability to block off trade from Amnoon to Ebonhawke. and we know from NPC dialog that said trade did happen, if infrequently. At least until Kralk moved into the region a few years ago.

Its also possible that the land bridge between Orr and the scavanger's causeway isn't totally solid, and is more like the area around the Vizier's tower, where small boats could sail past it, bypassing needing to skirt around Orr, or go near Pact HQ.

If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.Or, you know, because the DSD was to the south of them, and its forces were pushing north, so everyone naturally flee north to get as far away from it as possible, instead of going side to side where less distance is gained. You wouldn't want to go the closest shallow lands, because that traps you between the DSD and land. Going far away puts more distance between the two of you, instead of having to flee a little, get encroached on again ,and flee again. Your argument only makes sense if we assume all of the Krait, Largos, and Quaggan are just totally stupid.

Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.The Norn didn't go in a cone though, they went straight south, led by Asgeir and the Spirits, who founded Hoelbrek, then the spread out from there. Likewise, the Kodan were forced to follow the ice sea, and all ended up trapped in Frostgorge sound(the map), and the watery areas north of it. Neither of them scattered, or coned out. If the Kodan had scattered, we would expect to have heard of Kodan sanctuary cities along the coast of the woodland cascades, between there and the Isles of Janthir. Instead they all seemed to have been forced down one path.

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