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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@Astralporing.1957 said:In the many years of GW2 history, i've heard some developer comments about how they're satisfied with a feature and how one is a success about many things that clearly weren't. Including build templates lately. So, i wouldn't be putting too much faith in that one single statement. They obviously weren't succesful enough for Anet to justify putting more resources into them, or even to keep the original level of investment - and that (unlike a very indefinite and ambigious statement) is a hard fact.

It wasn't one comment regarding their release cadence though, they repeated it over and over for many months.

Actions, not words, remember?

Exactly. They were discussing internally to have a faster release schedule, they -promised- a faster release schedule, but in the end all we got was... delays. Which is why Raids died.

Edit: if someone is making comments about releasing more of something, then that means that something wasn't a failure that didn't justify putting more resources on it. Words and actions in that case were conflicting.

Edit 2: do note that the delays on Raids had very little to do with Raids themselves, their popularity/difficulty or their investment. It's clear that Mythright Gambit was ready for release months earlier and it was held back by external reasons, namely the ridiculous scheduling. Same thing happened with Fractals

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Edit: if someone is making comments about releasing more of something, then that means that something wasn't a failure that didn't justify putting more resources on it. Words and actions in that case were conflicting.Sure. Of course, the question is whether it was the actions, or the words that didn't reflect the reality behind the whole situation. Honstly, it wouldn't have been the first (or last) case where Anet was, let's say, overenthusiastic about their work.

Edit 2: do note that the delays on Raids had very little to do with Raids themselves, their popularity/difficulty or their investment. It's clear that Mythright Gambit was ready for release months earlier and it was held back by external reasons, namely the ridiculous scheduling. Same thing happened with FractalsThat's a fair point - they probably shouldn't have limited themselves to the LS scheduling. Unless there were some other considerations we don't know anything about that played an important factor here, of course.

I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

In the end, i'm not so sure that having Mythright Gambit released 2 months earlier would have made a lot of difference.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons). What effect a different schedule would have on Raids is anyone's guess, for some it would make no difference, for others it would mean everything.

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:''selling guilds''Yes there are people that benefit from that , collecting 1000 gold per runHm , maybe i start such a service :P

I wish i would get 1k Gold per run.Yeah, you make good gold with selling, but 1k gold per run is blowing it out of the water. Thats not even close to what you get after one fullrun.

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If Raids are the purpose of such silly arguments , then a Dev in his spare time can mask his indentity and create a fake LI generator program to be used from a third party site , or any kind future problem they are trying to avoid/limit in the design progress .Then whiners , will keep whining for others silly things .

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Now the key question : is Training Guilds (where most silly casuals resideds) , are they going to do 6+7 ?There are static groups formed, but don't expect many (lot of reasons for this, it will derail :smile: ). Most casuals initial goal is the Legendary Armor, which doesn't requires the later Raid Wings. Some stayed, some didn't after obtaining or before obtaining(myriad of reasons here, again :smile:).KP is another topic and derailing

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons).It's a bit more complicated than that. Remember, when they finished W6, they didn't just stop working for those next 2-3 months, doing nothing. They were doing
something
- whether that something was W7, or something else entirely i can't tell, but it's not a case of producing content faster than releasing it. It's a case of release schedule and development schedule not aligning.

By the way, you don't know how long it really took them to develop W6. It's quite probable, after all, that the same situation happened then, and they have started working on it even before W5 got released.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons).It's a bit more complicated than that. Remember, when they finished W6, they didn't just stop working for those next 2-3 months, doing nothing. They were doing
something
- whether that something was W7, or something else entirely i can't tell, but it's not a case of producing content faster than releasing it. It's a case of release schedule and development schedule not aligning.

By the way, you don't know how long it really took them to develop W6. It's quite probable, after all, that the same situation happened then, and they have started working on it even before W5 got released.

I think the comment was clear, Mythright Gambit was ready by June 2016 and the Key of Ahdashim was already under development at that point. The something they were doing is Fractals, because they combined the two teams into one, effectively killing both by giving them alternating release windows, while also releasing together with episodes.

My comment about producing content faster than their release date was about Mythright Gambit being confirmed -nearly- done 3 months earlier than its actual release. When they started development isn't really important, they had it ready, that's all that matters. Maybe not for future releases, but at the very least Mythright could've been released in early July 2016. The difference it would've made is debatable and not really important, but it would've made some difference no matter how small, releasing 3 months earlier was bound to be a positive thing. How positive? No clue. The truth of the matter is that scheduling was a major factor in what killed Raids (and Fractals) and it's clear that it could've been avoided by a better schedule, not by allocating more resources.

But that's in the past, hopefully they won't repeat the same mistake when (if?) they re-start Fractals and let them release when they are ready instead.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways. I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good. That's fantastic, but it's not relevant. The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around. The level of development is going to be a good indicator the level of revenue. As someone already mentioned, raids are like a 'brand' and when brands don't perform, they go away.

Frankly, if you look at it, what you are really saying is that Raids aren't revenue-sustaining content. Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves (which sounds completely stupid to begin with) ... or maybe Anet throttling back on raids was a much more sensible and reasonable business decision. Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind. That's awesome. Hopefully Anet does the right thing and looks at who's paying their rent ... and acts accordingly. #consistencyinofferings

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

I have to admit, the last paragraph made me chuckle. :)

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

Raids weren't the money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing. What the anti-raid crowd is forgetting in every new tirade against raids is the fact that the overwhelming majority of raiders are playing the open world content as well including achievement hunting, weapon & armor collections. They are also playing PvP & WvW and don't have raids as their main focus but a consistent thing in their game schedule. Scrapping raids still took a solid part of their gaming experience away and it's more than clear that overall this route in abandoning almost everything but open world had to fail as we all are unquestionably able to see in revenue numbers. A 25% decrease is not due to a few people aren't buying some armor sets or skins. It was a massive efflux of money what happened. And it remains to be proven if they can stop that kind of downfall with future quality releases in every aspect of the game. Open world PvE only isn't the way to go here even if you or some others here think that it should be. You were shown to be miserably wrong.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways.

Actually I think you aren't reading what is being typed here. I never argued the results of what happened to Raids, I dispute how we got here, more specifically your idea about the ONLY reason Raids failed:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1177909/#Comment_1177909

There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.If after all the evidence provided you still think that was the only reason Raids failed then it's like discussing with a wall. Delays hurt, bad schedules hurt, I'm not sure how can that be under dispute.

Even after you yourself realized that your argumentation doesn't explain their continuing growth for 2 years.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1186352/#Comment_1186352

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.No it doesn't

If Raids as content were so bad then why did they release the Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission which is equal to many Raid bosses in challenge? We'll see the future Strike Missions and what kind of path they will follow. Even without adding more Raids, we will see how they will affect future content.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Stalvros.9217 said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

But how many people were carried through the earliest raids in order to unlock the mastery track and then never touched it again because they didn't like the environment there?How many people are still selling raid wing runs for that purpose?

You can't say that just because people killed Vale Guardian, it means that the Raiding Community was strong when people are just trying to get their masteries and move on.

I got carried through my first raid only so I could get the masteries because I couldn't find an available group that wasn't filled with a bunch of jargon that I couldn't compete with.

I haven't consistently raided EVER since.You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed. It does not tell you whether or not the raiding community was ever strong.

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@hellsqueen.3045 said:You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed.

That's true for all types of content, I'm not sure how (or why) it only applies to Raids. For example, is Drakkar a successful boss? Or it gets players running it because they need achievements there? Is Grothmar Valley populated because players love playing there, or because they are still missing their achievements there? Is Insert any zone or content popular because it requires repetition for achievements/rewards or because players love it?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed.

That's true for all types of content, I'm not sure how (or why) it only applies to Raids. For example, is Drakkar a successful boss? Or it gets players running it because they need achievements there? Is Grothmar Valley populated because players love playing there, or because they are still missing their achievements there? Is
Insert any zone or content
popular because it requires repetition for achievements/rewards or because players love it?

Yeah, I am not arguing that.

However, enough people will still be going to those maps due to various other dailies and repetitive things (like ascended trinkets) they need there that people will keep doing it and that is just how it goes because the story keeps happening. There are pretty significant turn outs for story. I would say the development team does not judge the success on the maps but more on how many people are turning out for the next story and how many people are going through alts and completing said stories, etc.

How many people are doing that for raids?How many people after getting their masteries decided any of that experience was worth their time to:

  • enjoy the content it produced?
  • farm things they needed? (ascended armor, weapons, trinkets, etc)
  • farm the achievements?

I know I have very few achievements through raids because other than the ones I happened to get on the few things I have participated in, I haven't bothered to even care for getting those ones, even though I hunt AP like moths fly to light. For me the struggle of getting to do raids, with people that won't make the experience fun for me isn't worth it.

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@hellsqueen.3045 said:However, enough people will still be going to those maps due to various other dailies and repetitive things (like ascended trinkets) they need there that people will keep doing it and that is just how it goes because the story keeps happening.

Raids can be repeated only once per week and they do provide access to Ascended gear. The question was to compare content with content, using the gw2efficiency data in a vacuum is indeed a bad idea but it can be used to make comparisons.

There are pretty significant turn outs for story. I would say the development team does not judge the success on the maps but more on how many people are turning out for the next story and how many people are going through alts and completing said stories, etc.

It would be nice to have data for that in order to compare. Also it's important to note that stories got much shorter recently, and also have tie ins with events on the map to prolong their duration. That's probably intentional to keep players busy on the map, regardless if they want to leave and go do something else instead.

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@hellsqueen.3045 said:

But how many people were carried through the earliest raids in order to unlock the mastery track and then never touched it again because they didn't like the environment there?How many people are still selling raid wing runs for that purpose?

At the time - when it was obligatory to unlock the mastery track for getting spirit shards again - the overwhelming majority did that by doing escort. One of the easiest encounters of all bosses if not the easiest.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

Raids weren't
the
money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing.

I don't know that and neither do you. But you know who does? Anet ... and if that were true ... we will still have raids. I'm not lying here: if the ROI was there, we would still have raids.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways.

Actually I think you aren't reading what is being typed here. I never argued the results of what happened to Raids, I dispute how we got here, more specifically your idea about the ONLY reason Raids failed:

There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.If after all the evidence provided you still think that was the only reason Raids failed then it's like discussing with a wall. Delays hurt, bad schedules hurt, I'm not sure how can that be under dispute.

Even after you yourself realized that your argumentation doesn't explain their continuing growth for 2 years.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.No it doesn't

If Raids as content were so bad then why did they release the Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission which is equal to many Raid bosses in challenge? We'll see the future Strike Missions and what kind of path they will follow. Even without adding more Raids, we will see how they will affect future content.

Yup, you're right. You got it all figured out. Raids were super successful, the best thing that ever happened to this game ... and Anet screwed them over .. for some reason that defies good business sense.

... the convoluted conspiracy theory approach where the corporation tries hard to destroy their own existence, for whatever reason ... instead of the more logical explanation where raids declined because of being an unpopular brand with it's customers. Gotcha. #makessense. :+1: Whatever works for you.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

Raids weren't
the
money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing.

I don't know that and neither do you. But you know who does? Anet ... and if that were true ... we will still have raids. I'm not lying here: if the ROI was there, we would still have raids.

Sure, and if the return had been with Living World episodes, we would not see a delayed expansion announced years later.

Here is an interesting thought nugget: the devs make mistakes. Some of them one can recuperate from, others not so much. There is a good chance that raids fell pray to a mix of different issues not even directly related to the content. As have other past design and content aspects of the game.

To pretend one knows why something failed when there was clear indicators that is used to be very successful versus a time where it is not as much without actual data, is hubris.

So yes, raids might not make sense to see any further development now, but that doesn't mean in an alternate timeline with a different amount of support, they would have ended where they are now. As such to argue that raids never made sense is personal subjective make belief.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:So yes, raids might not make sense to see any further development now, but that doesn't mean in an alternate timeline with a different amount of support, they would have ended where they are now.

That's true ... maybe in parrallel universe #43443678, the outcome would be different. But we aren't in that universe, we are in this one. And in THIS one, I believe raids as they were offered in this game was inconsistent with the way customers expect content.

There isn't any 'hubris' here ... Unless raids were a loss leader, why is it so unreasonable to believe their decline was due to financial reasons? There isn't anything uncommon or unreasonable about businesses making decisions about products and services because of the revenue and profit they generate ... but somehow in THIS instance, I'm being told it's a ridiculous notion. SURE.

I mean, what mistake do we think Anet is making here? That stopping raid development is a bad idea? Based on what? Someone's idea that they were really 'successful' some time in the past? People drawing poor conclusions based on cherrypicked examples? None of that makes sense.

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