Official Ritualist thread — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Revenant

Official Ritualist thread

Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.
The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.
While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.
But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

<13

Comments

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Elric.4713 said:
    So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.
    The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.
    While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.
    But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

    as much as i would like to play with warhorn or dagger, i could see that greatsword will come. Esp cuz 7/10 revs would prefer that.

    Hopefully Arena Net doesn't design specializations based on what players supposedly want, but what will spice up the gameplay of a profession. Sadly I feel like greatsword would not.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020

    I just hope that if Anet goes with the Ritualist theme for the new especc, which I doubt and would feel boring to me, it won't be a human ritualist. Us going to Cantha also doesn't necessarily mean the Legend will be connected to the location, we've seen that with Kalla.
    Every Legend so far has been from a different race.

    Human / Assassin - Shiro
    Demon / Margonite - Mallyx
    Dwarf - Jalis
    Centaur - Ventari
    Dragon - Glint
    Charr / Renegade - Kalla

    That's why I also doubt Kanaxai will be a legend, even though he's a different type of demon.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Elric.4713 said:
    So as we all know the next expansion will finally take us back to Cantha, and with that it makes sense that Revenant's connection to the Canthan Ritualist will finally be explored.
    The talk of whether or not it should happen, or will it even be called Ritualist and what legend would accompany it has been going on in other threads, so I thought that it would be better if we focus that discussion in one thread.
    While the spirits were already given to Renegade, what I'd like to see explored with Master Togo as my legend of choice is the Channeling Magic aspect of the Ritualist, with scepter as our new e-spec weapon.
    But with that said, we know that a ranged main hand wouldn't work with our current two off-hands, so I'd like to see focus, warhorn or dagger added with the scepter or as a new weapon.

    as much as i would like to play with warhorn or dagger, i could see that greatsword will come. Esp cuz 7/10 revs would prefer that.

    Hopefully Arena Net doesn't design specializations based on what players supposedly want, but what will spice up the gameplay of a profession. Sadly I feel like greatsword would not.

    Sadly anet tries more and more to fulfill the communitys wishes.
    Thats why we have this balancing now. Cuz everyone complained about power being to strong... one shots.

    What now? Ppl complain about condi-tank meta ,which will probably lead to an condition nerf soon

  • If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own headcanon to try and justify it..

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Where is the official part of this thread?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gotta say, I'm sceptical about Togo's prospects as a legend both from a thematic perspective and a skills perspective.

    From a thematic perspective... what makes Togo so legendary. The existing legends are all tied to some major event during which they were a focal point in history - Jalis represents the end of the dwarfs and the Great Destroyer, Shiro represents the Jade Wind, Ventari represents the birth of the sylvari (it's not coincidence that all his skills revolve around the Tablet), Mallyx represents Nightfall, Kalla represents the overthrow of the shamans, and Glint represents well where do I even start?

    Togo's impact is... simply put, it's not on that level of significance. The Tengu Accords started to fall apart less than a decade after his death, and never applied to the Sensali to begin with. Apart from that, his main accomplishment is... being part of fighting Shiro. Shiro's the one whose impact was enough to generate a legend within the Mists - Togo simply played a part in one of the final chapters.

    From a skills perspective - what legend skills would Togo bring? We can assume his direct attack spells would go onto the weapon(s) he'd be associated with, but after that? There's a heal skill... which would be similar to Soothing Stone if translated into GW2. There's an energy management skill, which would probably be more likely to go into F2 than 7-10. Dragon Empire Rage could possibly be an elite, but after that, you're basically looking at spirits, and Kalla already does that. So I'm not convinced that Togo actually brings much to the table which which to establish his own playstyle. Certainly, I'm really not convinced we need a second bite at the spirits cherry right after Kalla.

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they can be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own headcanon to try and justify it..

    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    Yeah I do think we need to get a new off-hand as well, there are a few options beside focus that would fit the ritualistic theme but my personal favourite might actually be the warhorn, just so I can use Verdarach.

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    I know that you can't get over that fact that thematically we share so much with the Ritualist, and we even got spirits with Renegade. And as someone who supposedly wants so see Ritualist make a comeback you sure love to undermine and downplay the facts that it belongs on Rev, and you use your own head-canon to try and justify it..

    Actually not really. And I say this as someone who played a ritualist, they were WAY closer to the necromancer but they used less evil manners or dark magic to get where they wanted to go. They were like the respectful priest of their ancestors and despite some of those being legendary I highly doubt and I don't want the rev to get this, Id love for the necromancer to get it with the whole feel. (Spirits, Ashes, some channeling and some cool shroud mechanics to spice them up with not only a bit of a new color theme but a new theme in general.) Pair them with perhaps a hammer to break through the veil? Or something like Mace, shield and make them like a champion of their ancestors and it would be perfect.

    I want a norn legend, we don't have one. The argument could be made that the shaman who was a ritualist like character who helped jora could become a legend for us; Id much prefer a darker character as we have A LOT of heroes in our roster of legends. We need something evil which is why I always prop up svanir due to how much of a monster he was, plus id love to literally become the norn-bear and be this monster on the battlefield constantly fighting with their madness.

  • Albione.3894Albione.3894 Member ✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    Aside from necromancers having a closer feel, guardians are just as likely to get a ritualist themed spec, with the devs having commented on their connection before. Virtues would become spirits, utilities would be urns/ashes, and the weapons would be main hand and off-hand daggers.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

    Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

    Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

    Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

    Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

    There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

    The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

    Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Ritualist summons the dead. The revenant has no such limitations. This might be hard for you to hear this, but the only limitation the Revenant has is that the person they're channeling has to currently be in the mists. It doesn't mean they have to be dead. We saw this with Palawa Joko in the Living story and its likely that the revenant could channel someone like Arkk who never technically died but is lost in the mists. You want to hyper narrow the Revenant's scope to the Death magic that the Ritualist and Necromancer both share. When there is no such limitations. Revenant magic is chaotic and unstable. The stabilizing element is their Legend which grants them access to their abilities. They are more akin to a Blue mage. I will not ignore some of the similarities they have with both necromancer and Ritualist, they do have some. But I also can't ignore the Identity of the ritualist which is that of a Shaman dancer, using bones and ashes to commune with the dead.

    I think it's a bit deeper than that. Revenants have to channel someone which had a significant enough impact to leave a strong echo in the Mists. Joko, for instance, is an individual who has shaped Elonian history for centuries, and not just in the obvious way - the rise to power of the Ossa family and the founding of the Order of Whispers were both in response to him. He's definitely a revenant legend candidate, albeit probably one the PC will never use thanks to that "ugh, never again" response. There are actually pretty strong signs that, contrary to what the PC thought, Joko had already left the mists at that point, but there was still enough there to use.

    Characters whose main claim to fame is opposing a particular villain, however, do not seem to qualify - in these cases, it's the villain that created a big enough impact for the legend to form around. For instance, Shiro represents the events of Factions and the Jade Wind - Vizu, Archemorous, and the others are part of Shiro's legend. The exception seems to be when the primary actor is of the power level of a god or Elder Dragon, or is a dependent champion of an Elder Dragon, such as the Great Destroyer. Now, I don't think ArenaNet has explicitly stated that these are the requirements, but it does seem to fit what we've seen thus far - a legend must have had a significant impact on at least one culture, and they have to do so at least partially on their own initiative rather than simply trying to stop someone else.

    Ironically, if we were to have another legend focused around summoning spirits, I could see it being King Adelbern.

    There is a problem with this hypothesis of yours. And that's Mallyx. Mallyx is not a significant demon in the lore of Tyria and had little individual impact on the story. Varesh Ossa on the other hand was quite prominent. There is no suggestion that the Revenant can channels legends that are currently in Tyria, although considering that Time is irrelevant to the mists, they could channel a version of King Adelbern. Although if you wanted to play like the king he'd function more like a Minion Master as opposed to a Spirit spammer since he's acting as a commander of forces not a conjurer of the mists.

    The Legends must be significant enough in some way. Either powerful or legendary. Much of what the Revenant does would technically allow them to act as any profession in the game, They could channel a necromancer or warrior just fine and gain there abilities. Arkk is a legend that could be channeled. If personal legend is a factor, he's known among Mist being. Otherwise his mother who spearheaded the fractals project in the first place would be a legend enough to be called on.

    Usoku Is such a legend that would satisfy your criteria though. His actions are influenced by Shiro, but Shiro's actions were influenced by a minor demon in the story.

    Never said the individual had to have had a big impact on Tyria. Mallyx's impact within the Mists themselves were quite significant, and it's possible that he also had a significant impact on the original war of the gods that allowed him to reach such a high position in the first place. Consider that he's positioned on at least the same level as Shiro and Khilbron, and seems to be if anything higher on the totem pole than the likes of Lord Jadoth and the Fury - it's entirely likely that he's had a significant history even before Abaddon was imprisoned that we don't know.

    At the very least, though, Mallyx represents Nightfall, the Margonites, and the Realm of Torment. Yes, he was technically subservient to Abaddon, but I'd already noted that one situation in which a legend could be a subordinate is if the superior is something too high in scale to be a legend, such as a god.

    When it comes to Adelbern - one thing I'd note here is that the legends do somewhat draw on what the figure's impact was rather than how that figure actually fought. Jalis, for instance, fights nothing like the historical Jalis, instead seeming to be more of an embodiment of the Great Dwarf with Jalis as its face. Shiro doesn't release a small-scale Jade Wind any time he has a big enough energy reserve and feels like it, he devastates a continent with his death scream. Ventari's powers all resolve around a tablet that he only inscribed when he was close to death. Adelbern as a legend, therefore, would likely revolve around the Foefire, and what is the best-known consequences of the Foefire? Spirits all over the place!

    Usoku certainly would fulfill the criteria, unless there's some reason he wouldn't that we don't know about (such as someone else being the proverbial power behind the throne). Since I don't think we know much about him, though, he's pretty much a blank slate as to what he'd have.

    (Incidentally, the Joko case is an example of channeling someone who is almost certainly not in the Mists - as we're breaking out of the Great Hall prison, Joko was in the process of kidnapping Taimi.)

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they can be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

    The difference between Guardian offhands and Axe/offSword on Rev is that there are inherent defenses baked into all 3 of guard's offhand choices. Currently, Rev has 0 defensive options for offhands outside of Shield in Herald (and shield wouldn't mix with a hypothetical scepter for obvious reasons). You're right, Axe wouldn't be an awful choice to pair with a longer range scepter, but it's entirely offensive so it would only fill that niche. The gap closers on both could be useful, but would depend on what skills the mainhand scepter received, what utility skills the new legend provides, and what profession skills are added. One of the issues with Shortbow (and Mace/Axe for a long time) is the complete lack of defensive skills. I wouldn't want the same fate to befall any future mainhand weapon for Rev. I should rephrase my initial statement to say that adding a Focus (or any offhand for that matter) with long range abilities/some defensive utility alongside a mainhand scepter would provide additional (probably better) synergy and add a lot more build options for a class that's already hyper limited. It would allow a hypothetical scepter rev to have the choice of two hyper offensive offhands (axe/sword) or a 3rd offhand with some damage/utility/defense (focus).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    I think they might explore the relationship between Revenant and Ritualist, which would be great.
    But ACTUAL Ritualist spec? I think the chances are very low.

    Revenant pretty much is the evolution of Ritualist, where Ritualist channels spirits and summons, Revenant meditates and channels the Legendary figures themselves.

    I also fear if Anet starts adding in Legendary GW profession heroes as Legends, people are gonna be expecting more of that sort of Especs down the line.
    "Oh we want Dervish, let's get a Dervish hero to channel"
    "We want a Sunspear, let's get a Sunspear hero to channel"
    "We want to be like a Mesmer too, let's get a Mesmer hero to channel"

    I think Revenants should stick closely to Legendary beings that mundane creatures cannot hope to match in prowess.
    So far among the lineup, only Kalla and Jalis are more mundane than the others, but every bit legendary in their own right.

    Shiro has past transcended being a mortal if yu follow his story.
    Glint is a DRAGON.
    Mallyx is a Demon.
    Ventari is a Centaur.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    Honestly, I'm inclined to agree.

    Revenant is related to Ritualist in much the same way as Guardian is related to Monk - they're drawing from the same or a similar overall power source, but how they use it is very, very different. If anything, more so with the Revenant than with the Guardian.

    And yeah, I don't think there's much point to legends which are simply a translation of an existing profession into a legend. Mallyx and Glint had entirely unique skills. So did Shiro - yes, he was technically an assassin, but by the time we fought him in GW1 he'd collected so much power that he'd essentially transcended mortal assassins. Jalis was technically a warrior, but the legend relates to him focuses on his legacy, and while Ventari's precise profession is unknown (he would have had one, centaurs have professions just like humans, and this has largely followed through into GW2 although GW2 doesn't make it explicit) his legend also focuses on his legacy.

    Kalla is probably the most 'normal' of the legends, but in her case the focus is more on her as a leader than her as a ranger or warrior.

    Personally, I'm definitely more eager to see a future revenant legend being something exotic that doesn't fit into the other professions rather than a revenant facsimile of a profession that already exists... or even one that existed in a previous game.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think they might explore the relationship between Revenant and Ritualist, which would be great.
    But ACTUAL Ritualist spec? I think the chances are very low.

    Revenant pretty much is the evolution of Ritualist, where Ritualist channels spirits and summons, Revenant meditates and channels the Legendary figures themselves.

    I'd be fine with just the connection exploration, kinda like how in POF there are NPCs for every new elite specialization, ours could be a Ritualist that share's some of its knowledge with Revenants without actually teaching us to become one, as we might be the first one's they meet after their long isolation (there's also the possibility of them knowing about us through our shared connection with the Mists).
    And there's also a strong possibility that they will deal with Assassin and Ritualist the same way they did with Paragon and Dervish and just make them as an NPC profession.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

    I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

    To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

    Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

    When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

    You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ashes are... an interesting thing to try to fit, to say the least. I am sceptical that ritualists actually carry around ashes of various historical figures, especially since some of the pots are then used as bombs. It's probably more likely that what's happening is that the ritualist is calling the spirit into a receptacle, and it just happens to be in that form. Maybe it even has ashes in it, but are they necessarily ashes of cremation, or is it simply a ritual reagent and any ashes would do?

    I think, if you were to boil the ritualist down to its essentials, there are five things that really stand out:

    *Direct offensive spells involving channeling the power of the Mists
    *Spirits
    *Weapons spells
    *Urns
    *Healing, in part through the above.

    Translating these into GW2 terms:

    Channeling could simply be covered through the ritualist's weapon(s) giving them appropriately-themed attacks.

    Spirits are... well, we have multiple things that are or act like spirits. One could argue that Shadow Fiend and Flesh Wurm already count.

    Weapon spells and urns, I think, would likely both fit into the category of bundle objects in GW2. Urns were used by the ritualist directly, weapon spells were applied to allies. A system similar to Elementalist conjured weapons would work, where the ritualist has one appear in their hands and another appears on the ground somewhere for an ally to pick up.

    Healing... well, direct heals on a single ally have been pretty much removed. I don't think this necessarily needs to be directly included, it can be something that comes naturally out of the other elements. Core necromancer already has a few healing and protective effects, so I'm not sure that they'd need to have a separate "Restoration" line of skills.

    Saying that ritualist really needs to have its own profession to really do it justice... I can definitely see where you're coming from, but at this stage I'd be almost as surprised by ArenaNet introducing a new profession (will it be introduced with three elite specialisations out of the gate? How will they explain the Commander showing up with a new profession this late in the story?) as a new race.

    So, hypothetically, if I was to make a ritualist-themed necromancer elite specialisation, I'd probably take the following approach:

    The one thing pretty much every ritualist build was expected to have is at least one spirit, so that would replace the shroud mechanic. F1 would summon a spirit whose attacks take up the traits normally on shroud skill 1. F2 summons a disenchantment spirit that removes boons when it hits, corrupting them if you have the appropriate trait. F4 would probably summon some sort of healing or protective spirit so it fits with Transfusion. F5 I'd also see as being a protective spirit (being the equivalent of shroud for the purpose of traits), including all damage dealt to the necromancer going to the spirit instead.

    Channeling themes, as previously noted, would be used in designing the weapon attacks.

    Utility skills would be, essentially, conjures. So the healing skill might be a conjure that effectively turns the user into a Restoration healer while using it. Others would likely be more aggressive in nature, although some can be more defensive (similar to Conjure Earth Shield). To really carry the flavour, each could also have a particular effect that happens if the bundle is deliberately dropped by the user.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

    I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

    To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

    Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

    When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

    You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

    Id love to see ritualist return as its own class... have it be something different and new. Just as Id like for assassin to come as its own and dervish and paragon to come as their own as well. They ALL were different to anything we have now and while they share similarities they do not share exact moments or connections with said classes, the only one who would is the monk. The lore as far as I know stated that monks are literally the precursor to guardians, and that the years of conflict forced the monks to become more martial and thus the guardian was born.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

    I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

    To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

    Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

    When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

    You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

    Id love to see ritualist return as its own class... have it be something different and new. Just as Id like for assassin to come as its own and dervish and paragon to come as their own as well. They ALL were different to anything we have now and while they share similarities they do not share exact moments or connections with said classes, the only one who would is the monk. The lore as far as I know stated that monks are literally the precursor to guardians, and that the years of conflict forced the monks to become more martial and thus the guardian was born.

    Guardian is a bit of a mutt - we know there's a bit of Ritualist in there, and there was Paragon in there according to a prerelease interview which is no longer available online. Assassin is, honestly, close enough to thief that it would be doable as a thief elite specialisation - there are some things assassin had that thief is missing, but the majority of it is in there, and thief is about as close to assassin as mesmer, elementalist, necromancer, ranger and warrior are to their predecessors.

  • Ron Longhorn.5167Ron Longhorn.5167 Member
    edited March 16, 2020

    I would love to play Ritualist again, loved it in gw1 :D

  • Eric.7813Eric.7813 Member ✭✭

    Ritualist as a profession

    Having spent thousands of hours on my ritualist from GW1, I would hate to see it broken up into various elite specs. It would be rather lack-luster and mediocre at best.

    The ritualist brought so many new mechanisms to the game that could be expanded upon as a stand-alone profession in GW2. Distribution of the ritualist attributes and mechanics to various elite specs would be an unfortunate loss of opportunity to add life into GW2. The ritualist as a profession in GW2 expansion 3 would be the a wonderful addition to see.

    A note to the devs: Expanding on what was great in GW Factions is vital to the success of this upcoming expansion. Go back to the roots, Factions is beloved by a large percentage of your player-base.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    Well, after figuring out the Revenant is closer to Dervish than the Ritualist I started to lose my interest in the Ritualist based E-Spec.

    Also, the Ritualist skillset was reinterpreted into GW2's Necromancer.

    What I would like to see is the Tengu E-Spec with Dual Daggers. I really enjoy exploring new races like Jotun, Mursaat, Tengu, Kodan or Krait.
    It could be much more interesting to see how other races use out classes, Krait being very necrotic for example.

    People don't realize that just because Rev wears a headwrap and summons legends doesn't make it a Ritualist. Though I could see this being our E-Spec.

    As for the weapons, hell no for the Greatsword.
    I'd rather get a new main-hand / Off-hand or dual new weapons, so I can finally make my choice between something other than Sword or Axe. Rev's weapons have a very interesting synergy, accessing to Chill and gap closers.

    • Dual Daggers
    • Warhorn
    • Focus
    • Torch
  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eric.7813 said:
    Ritualist as a profession

    Having spent thousands of hours on my ritualist from GW1, I would hate to see it broken up into various elite specs. It would be rather lack-luster and mediocre at best.

    I feel like the ship has sailed when it comes to that, these are the parallels I see, and I'll even throw in the Necromancer for good measure:

    Ritualist

    • Third eye icon
    • Blindfold as iconic headpiece
    • Mist magic
    • Connection with Canthan heroes and spirits
    • Light armor

    Revenant

    • Third eye icon
    • Blindfold as iconic headpiece
    • Mist magic
    • Connection with Tyrian legends and spirits
    • Heavy armor
    • Champion Ritualist PvP title

    Necromancer

    • Skull icon
    • Corpsepaint
    • Death magic
    • Flesh, bone and shadow minions
    • Light armor
    • Champion Phantom PvP title

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Eric.7813Eric.7813 Member ✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Eric.7813 said:
    Ritualist as a profession

    Having spent thousands of hours on my ritualist from GW1, I would hate to see it broken up into various elite specs. It would be rather lack-luster and mediocre at best.

    I feel like the ship has sailed when it comes to that, these are the parallels I see, and I'll even throw in the Necromancer for good measure:

    I have high expectations for anet.
    The necromancer as you describe is identical as seen in GW1, which obviously was very independent from the ritualist. The Main mechanics seen in the ritualist aren’t Paralleled in any current profession, although minor references can be seen

    Based on the original wiki, the ritualist description seems to fit more between a rev and ranger.

    “Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master.“

    Im sure we’ll both be wrong in the end. Exciting to think about though

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Eric.7813 said:
    Ritualist as a profession

    Having spent thousands of hours on my ritualist from GW1, I would hate to see it broken up into various elite specs. It would be rather lack-luster and mediocre at best.

    I feel like the ship has sailed when it comes to that, these are the parallels I see, and I'll even throw in the Necromancer for good measure:

    Ritualist

    • Third eye icon
    • Blindfold as iconic headpiece
    • Mist magic
    • Connection with Canthan heroes and spirits
    • Light armor

    Revenant

    • Third eye icon
    • Blindfold as iconic headpiece
    • Mist magic
    • Connection with Tyrian legends and spirits
    • Heavy armor
    • Champion Ritualist PvP title

    Necromancer

    • Skull icon
    • Corpsepaint
    • Death magic
    • Flesh, bone and shadow minions
    • Light armor
    • Champion Phantom PvP title

    These are just themes, functionally and gameplay-wise Revenant is closer to Dervish.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

    I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

    To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

    Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

    When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

    You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

    Your argumentation that ritualist should intrinsically get tied to the necromancer doesn't make sense from a lore point of view.
    And you delivered the arguments against necromancer getting that elite spec yourself.

    Necromancy is stigmatised because of the plague that ravaged Cantha. While necromancy has no direct ties to that disease, necromancy specialising in spreading diseases and forging flesh in new forms still should make people really sceptical about their methods.
    And then there is the ritualist, which as you mentioned is the religious centerpiece of Cantha. Their teachings are holy.

    And you expect a ritualist to teach his holy techniques to a necromancer.... the profession that is so highly despised in Cantha? Consider that a necromancer gaining an elite spec does not forget all of their previous skills and teachings. Spreading plague and disease, forging the flesh of the dead and others are still part of your skillset. A ritualist would hand over their ancient traditions to a member of a caste that is hated and considered unholy in their land? Very unlikely to happen.

    Also xenophobia as an argument against revenant is not really solid. Because that xenophobia would forbid a ritualist to teach anyone not coming from Cantha, which would also include the necromancer.
    The revenant can also be seen as the class a ritualist would be the least sceptical against, because revenants traverse the mist, the domain the ritualist is in contact with, therefore they might actually already be familiar with the fact that revenants exist.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    You know, people keep claiming that Ritualist and Revenant has a lot in common. I see a little bit with summoning of some spirits, but beyond that I have seen Nothing else. Blindfolds don't count since Necromancers use them too on occasion. And they're not even a requirement on Revenant since Rytlock got rid of his. Its always just "There's a lot there" and never any proof of that.

    I have shown proof that the Revenant is not limited to Dead spirits. I've shown that their magic is Mist Magic not magic specifically involving the dead. I've Shown how Ritualist uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown how Necromancer also uses bones and ashes in their rituals. I've shown that Both Ritualists and Necromancer's Call the dead from The underworld and the realm of torment. I've shown that the mechanics side of Revenant doesn't work well with Ritualist, but the necromancer's mechanics absolutely do with far less of the ritualist's Identity falling off in translation. Worse still, You NEED Togo to justify ritualist on the Revenant. And even then you would be as much of a ritualist as you are a Monk by using Centaur stance or an assassin using assassin stance.

    To be perfectly honest. I don't want Ritualist as an elite spec for Either Revenant or Necromancer. I want the real thing. Not some half baked copycat. Ritualist and its legacy would be served better as its own profession and not shoehorned into the extremely narrow Revenant profession. You'll lose aspects of the ritualist no matter what, with Revenant you'd lose weapon spells, Urns, restoration magic, protection spirits, channeling magic and only really get Spirit Spammer, or at least a hollow shell of what it was. With Necromancer you could keep the restoration magic, the protection spirits, the urns and spirit spammer but still lose the Weapon spells and Channeling magic... You lose a lot less with the necromancer translation but there's still a big loss of what made the ritualist the ritualist.

    Even if we ignore the mechanical nightmare that the ritualist would bring for the Revenant, there just is no room for it in the lore. The Revenant doesn't exist in Cantha. The Ritualist is one of the oldest professions in the lore, older than Even Necromancers among humans. Revenant is only a few years old. its an extremely new form of magic that doesn't use Rituals at all, doesn't preform death rites and has no way for it to be connected with the ritualist to really spread as a unified teaching. The Renegade master in PoF even was following Rytlock's teachings, she wasn't someone following an old teaching.

    When you compare the history of the Ritualist with the Necromancer there is serious history between the two. Ritualists and necromancers are both Priests of grenth. They're both working within death magic. No that's not a misconception, both have in the past required dead parts to preform their magics. Such as bones, ashes and corpses. Much of the identity of the ritualist is in death. A part of their culture's lamentation for the dead. Ritualists found necromancers to be problematic a lot of times which we see in Shin Jea as they seak out the aid of ritualists to deal with a problem caused by a necromancer because ritualists understand the dead. What we can expect with this Xpac is a strong connection between the two. Possibly either necromancers required to conform to the Ritualist's practices due to pressure from the Ministry of Purity, or the necromancer becoming an underground practice.

    You have to consider what the lore is with Cantha right now. They're isolationist, there is no way for Revenant to get their teachings there without some serious sloppy writing and hand waving. There's a lot of Lore with the Ministry of Purity which are currently the primary acting force on behalf of the Emperor themselves, Which with the trauma of Shiro's Plague and that the necromancer's specialize in spreading plague and dead bodies would be highly stigmatized, the high level of Xenophobia of the nation and the High ranking Priesthood of the Ritualists in Canthan Lore, there shouldn't be a question in anyone's mind that if the Ritualist is involved with the story it is intrinsically going to be tied up with the necromancer. As it always has been.

    Well said. I myself used to think that Revenant = Ritualist but when I played GW1 and made both Ritualist and Dervish, the only thing connecting Revenant and Ritualist is a blindfold and summoning (still not really).

    Dervish I say.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Necromancy is stigmatised because of the plague that ravaged Cantha. While necromancy has no direct ties to that disease, necromancy specialising in spreading diseases and forging flesh in new forms still should make people really sceptical about their methods.

    Do you have a source for that? There's nothing in Winds of Change to indicate such a stigma that I've been able to find, and the only evidence of dislike for necromancers in Cantha that I can find in general is the early Ritualist skill quests, and even there, that's only Ritualists, and could just be an expression of frustration of having to clean up after minions get loose. There's evidence of stigma against necromancers in Ascalon, in Kourna, and even somewhat in Kryta (although it's subtle) in GW1, but I don't recall an indication that there's any stigma against it in Cantha, let alone that it's despised. Based on the human forces that the PC fights such as the Ministry of Purity, Kurzicks, and Luxons, necromancers seem no less common than ritualists.

    Revenant already has a ritualist-esque elite spec in Kalla - I don't want to see the potential of a third elite spec being wasted on another spirit summoner. Otherwise, the most logical places, lore-wise, for a ritualist-themed elite spec would be necromancer or guardian.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Your argumentation that ritualist should intrinsically get tied to the necromancer doesn't make sense from a lore point of view.
    And you delivered the arguments against necromancer getting that elite spec yourself.

    Its already happened in the lore. It was occurring in Guild Wars 1. And its not going to change as time progresses since their magics pull from the same sources. I also argue against it because I want it as a profession, not some half backed Elite spec which is what we'd get no matter what. It would be demonstrably worse on revenant, which is more my argument. Which isn't against my argument.

    Necromancy is stigmatised because of the plague that ravaged Cantha. While necromancy has no direct ties to that disease, necromancy specialising in spreading diseases and forging flesh in new forms still should make people really sceptical about their methods.
    And then there is the ritualist, which as you mentioned is the religious centerpiece of Cantha. Their teachings are holy.

    Conformity is preferred to Exile or execution. If you study history this is a common occurrence. Less practiced religions when in hostile regions with a shift in political and religious norms have used all three methods of suppression. The most effective is conformity, especially when the nation rewards or makes their people's lives better for conformity. This isn't a controversial statement at all.

    Also, you seem to forget resentment that can occur with the Empire as well. So resistance forces who would know the culture would teach the players. However, this isn't a point in favor of Revenant as the practice has to be established before the arrival of the Tyrians. There is also the possibility that the Dragon Emperor themselves will open their borders after a long time isolated. But this still doesn't aid the revenant as they have no prior practice of the profession.

    You're counterpoint is an extremely poorly thought out argument and it takes longer to explain whats wrong with it than to spout it out.

    And you expect a ritualist to teach his holy techniques to a necromancer.... the profession that is so highly despised in Cantha? Consider that a necromancer gaining an elite spec does not forget all of their previous skills and teachings. Spreading plague and disease, forging the flesh of the dead and others are still part of your skillset. A ritualist would hand over their ancient traditions to a member of a caste that is hated and considered unholy in their land? Very unlikely to happen.

    See the above statement.

    Also xenophobia as an argument against revenant is not really solid. Because that xenophobia would forbid a ritualist to teach anyone not coming from Cantha, which would also include the necromancer.

    See the above statment.

    The revenant can also be seen as the class a ritualist would be the least sceptical against, because revenants traverse the mist, the domain the ritualist is in contact with, therefore they might actually already be familiar with the fact that revenants exist.

    Very doubtful. Revenants are in low numbers in the lore and there interactions with them would be brief at best and they'ed likely need to be dead first. In which case there is no reason that necromancer wouldn't also have interactions with them. You seem to forget that the necromancer also connects through the mists. All be it they're as limited as the Ritualist is to the spirit realm. Aka, Underworld and realm of Torment.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I already play a Ritualist. It's just called the Renegade because the spirits wear cat suits, and no-one wants to admit it's a Ritualist because it doesn't have Signet of Spirits.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    I already play a Ritualist. It's just called the Renegade because the spirits wear cat suits, and no-one wants to admit it's a Ritualist because it doesn't have Signet of Spirits.

    While Renegade did get them, Ritualist was more than spirits tho. What I'm proposing is embracing the more magical feel with spell casting playstyle.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ritualist was largely out of favour as a primary profession before Signet of Spirits was reworked into its best-known iteration, after which that was basically all it was used for in PvE.

    The only secondary element that isn't expressed in the Revenant yet (aside from all the generic monk/necro crossover spells that blend into the background) is weapon spells, which acted rather like preparations do on the Thief or Ranger. Probably wouldn't be a bad use for a Talon Silverwing themed elite spec actually.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I stated in another thread, which is in this sub-thread. I really don't feel Ritualist would be a good fit for revenant as they use two different kinds of magic which are not completely interconnected. Soul magic, death magic and other-wise tapping into the dead is not what the revenant does. The mists are not a place where dead souls nessacarily go but the memories and the impact they made, embodies them within the mists. The bigger the ripple the more likely they are to become a figure within the mists, the shiro in the mists is NOT the same shiro we see at the end of nightfall but a memory of him.

    If it was the shiro we encountered in nightfall he would be purified, and would not be considered and antagonizing force anymore. Like wise mallyx probably has reformed in the mists and I highly doubt Ventari went to the underworld when he passed due to it being a human based place where grenth holds dominion. Its much like the norn wish to become a legend, because in doing so they become immortalized within the mists but the version of them in the mists is not the version we encounter. Granted realms of the dead do exist within the mists and Eir appearing alongside snaff suggests they traversed from such a realm but honestly I believe that those were merely echos of who they were/are.

    The ritualist is linked to death magic, no two ways about it and is not utilizing mist energy. Plus the mechanical side of revenant would limit how much of the ritualist you would actually obtain; Where as with necromancer you could get the whole package. The ashes could function like glints skills on Revenant with you using essence (Shroud) to channel them; Your shroud abilities could be differing buffs such as splintered weapons that you also spend shroud to utilize for group benefits and big damage/cc. Your passive could have you summon spirits when you attack who will follow you while in combat, and base on your trait choices you could gain unique utility from them. And finally your weapon skills could be your channeling abilities maybe mixed with a bit of restoration as well? With revenant you'd have to give up a lot due to the legend swap mechanic,and as a Rev main I REALLY don't want to see this happen because rit was so much more in GW1.

    Plus Razah and Togo are the only real legendary figures we could pull from, but Razah was a mist being much like the six. As such he was able to become any class and use any skill-set so he really isn't a ritualist fully. Togo would be a boring as hell option for the revenant and we already got some regular type being with Kalla WHO mind you fills the role of spirit spammer, and was stated to be the At the time homage to ritualist. I highly doubt they would give Revenant another ranged Elite spec, and the first elite spec was a support spec. In fact honestly both are support specs so we are probably looking at either a bruiser, or a full on dps spec with more of a selfish build to it rather than a group based spec.

    Personally I want a norn spec, Svanir, Asgeir, Jora, Olaf Olafson hell Ill take any of them or even one thats lesser known but no less legendary. We have human linked legends and even have a human legend in shiro; I am completely disinterested in more same old, same old. Ritualist wouldn't feel unique compared to renegade and core revenant, but on necromancer it would. Especially if it offered necromancer movement as a big change it brought; Imagine it being a mobile sustained-burst class with tons of sustain and tons of tools to deal with enemies.

    Looking at the mechanical side of it, the fact that Rit is a light armored class and the fact that necromancer with guardian coming a close second I feel necromancer will obtain the spec. Especially because of firebrand and Renegade existing on the other two classes linked to Rit. Firebrand functions much like the ashes variant of Ritualist, and even has some of the restoration side of it; And Renegade has the spirit spammer. The version of ritualist I propose in my eyes is the ONLY WAY you will see this thing become playable, a homage to the class overall.

    I also doubt the majority of Revenant players want another sub-par legend, we want something cool and powerful in theme and ability. And im sorry Ritualist does NOT have that in spades, maybe for some of you sure but not for me and others I've spoken too. I really don't want to have to swap mains this expansion because they decided its a good Idea to just make Revenant the ritualist instead of the revenant.. (Which was brought into existence by a charr, something canthans will be racist against and hate. I doubt they will be inclined to learn revenant legends.)

    Also look at the themes of the last two E-specs.

    Herald: As the name suggests we are heralding something, bringing forth something and in the game we did just that. We heralded aurene and brought a new age to the world of tyria. We became the harbingers of the prophecy glint foretold and used her power to ensure it reached its conclusion, we became the embodiment of change and a new era.

    Renegade: With balthazar on the loose tyranny and war was on the horizon, as a renegade we DIRECTLY oppose that and the legend was chosen to be Kalla due to her links to those themes and her being a charr. In a human centric story with the god that spurred them on to conquer and kill the charr, who was no enslaving his own people and doing much of what the flame legion did. In terms of story and in terms of what she stands for, it makes perfect sense to have her be the one to fight alongside us against balthazar because he goes against EVERYTHING she stands for.

    3rd E-spec: will probably have to do with facing the odds, overcoming and accomplishing the impossible. Or being a monster and aiming to destroy ones way of life and doing so perhaps for the greater good, but perhaps merely because we don't agree. The expansions story will either be Bangar leading us to cantha as he attacks it and us having to stand against him and seeking vengeance. OR we will have to fight the emperor and his entire legion because they are a threat and seek to purge the non-humans from tyria. Either way this is not a expansion that fits the theme of a ritualist legend due to them being like priests, or oracles where they use their arts for purposes outside of simple conflicts. Togo only got involved due to shiro, and the fact that his island was one of the first places infected and that he wanted to end the threat... With this being either a human leader or a charr leader or BOTH we have no real clue what legend it will be.

    But given the circumstances, the mentions of tons of legendary norn this season (Including the renegade from the PoF trailer talking to a norn about asgeir and how she admires him via his legend) It all points to a norn legend with a norn theme around it. I could be wrong but I feel that is a theme the revenant has yet to tap into and if done correctly would be VASTLY more interesting than some ritualist legend that will be just more of the same.

  • Or it can be a ritualist spec, not tied to a profession, but taught to revs by razah in the mists or something. Revs sorta access the same energy as ritualists and can incorporate it either through channeling or restoration magic. I figure if it is any sort of rit spec itll probably still be fighting based and not really on the spellcaster side in regards to what weapon they recieve. Weapon skills from gw1 and spirits strength are examples of how that type of magic can enhance physical ability. There were many channeling skills that had a lot of pbaoe or just aoe that could also be used. And even some sorta of healing spec revolving around restoration magic could happen to compliment ventari, and it could also give us the ability to use scepter/focus.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 That is a really long post, that honestly feels a bit ranty, but I'll touch on a few things.
    You keep claiming that Ritualist uses the same Death magic as the Necromancer and that is completely untrue! Ritualist and Revenant both tap into the Mists for their power, one with the Canthan heroes and spirits of old, and the other with the more broad Tyrian (as Revenant is Rit reimagined for the second game with other races than Humans in mind) legends and spirits.

    This is one of the quotes of Professor Gai, one of the ritualist trainers:
    "I have often found that Ritualists will progressively become more incisive, mordant, and paradoxical as they maintain confluence with the Mists."

    And while Kalla already has access to spirits, I would like next spec to focus more on magic channeling side of Ritualist.
    You can also check one of my posts above to see how Rev has inherited Ritualists theme, and how Necro has little to do with it.
    I am also of the opinion that not every race has to have their own Legend, Jora or Svanir are no more worthy of becoming legends than Togo is. Especially if they bring us more of the same, melee focused gameplay we're already shoehorned in.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:
    @Thornwolf.9721 That is a really long post, that honestly feels a bit ranty, but I'll touch on a few things.
    You keep claiming that Ritualist uses the same Death magic as the Necromancer and that is completely untrue! Ritualist and Revenant both tap into the Mists for their power, one with the Canthan heroes and spirits of old, and the other with the more broad Tyrian (as Revenant is Rit reimagined for the second game with other races than Humans in mind) legends and spirits.

    This is one of the quotes of Professor Gai, one of the ritualist trainers:
    "I have often found that Ritualists will progressively become more incisive, mordant, and paradoxical as they maintain confluence with the Mists."

    And while Kalla already has access to spirits, I would like next spec to focus more on magic channeling side of Ritualist.
    You can also check one of my posts above to see how Rev has inherited Ritualists theme, and how Necro has little to do with it.
    I am also of the opinion that not every race has to have their own Legend, Jora or Svanir are no more worthy of becoming legends than Togo is. Especially if they bring us more of the same, melee focused gameplay we're already shoehorned in.

    And Ill become a bit aggressive here and say a Race that is ALL about legends deserves to have one of theirs in the roster. We don't need more human trash pushed any further than its going to be, Im tired of waiting for norn to get something. You keep sitting here pushing your narrative and yes there are pieces of the ritualist in the revenant but it is not a 1 to 1 ratio here. I firmly believe a revenant would dominate a rit in a fight, mainly because rev is far more versitile and I honestly don't want to be regulated to "Caster" on a class that is supposed to stand apart from the rest of the cast.

    Guardian also has parts of the rit, along with monk and paragon. Why discount them? And necromancer has pieces of the ritualist within its theme within this game as well; I won't touch this E-spec if it comes out and is another botched attempt at making a ritualist out of a class that clearly can't adapt to that style of gameplay. You want a rit? Renegade is there for you, and that is as close as Id be ok with them going. A human themed legend will be boring and will feel forced mainly because all of cantha will be human-centric AGAIN; Something thats a tad different like kalla was for PoF would be good.

    Plus back then the mists were different to what they are now, guild wars 2 has retconned so many things so many times that guild wars 1 is not applicable for argument when discussing current events. In fact they blatantly laugh in the face of the established lore every chance they get, and yes it might be ranty but at least im not sitting here assuming a spec that will 100% be just a blue version of renegade will be our next E-spec. You expect them to make Revenant work with all this extra stuff ontop of it when they CANT EVEN GET IT TO WORK NOW. They are constantly changing the class time and again, if we were going to have a ritualist legend it should of come with core and been tied to invocation but sadly its not.

    Im sorry I will not, can not and refuse to support this idea that it has to be a canthan themed Elite spec for the revenant who always seems to do its own thing. Jora and Svanir are far more legendary than togo? Why ? Well for one they are norn and had more under their belt than just "He did some stuff with tengu, and he died to shiro." Like kormir Togo was just exposition for us. Svanir TERRORIZED the norn people who in all retro-spect are the most physically powerful and spiritual of the races of tyria we are allowed to play as, he decimated so many people. He has is own cult and Jora is worshiped as a prime example of everything a norn should strive to be, if thats not enough Asgeir exists and is even more legendary.

    the actions of these three effected more than the norn, it effected the humans, charr, asuran as well so its not as if the ripples of their deeds could be forgotten. You expect me to believe a charr, norn, asuran or even sylvari would care about togo? who only ever really helped the humans who as of now really don't have the best diplomatic relations with those races, hell Im sure that the charr will have some strains after bangar but still.

    But its fine, wouldn't be the first time I swapped mains. So if it happens fine, good for you... just one more thing for me to persecute with prejudice in any competitive mode out of frustration. Can't believe how freaking high on the human circle jerk the community is.... let alone the fact that rit has to be tied to rev; Despite the fact that revenant literally could get ANYTHING as an e-spec from the lore. Hell we could even get the lich from guild wars prophecies as a legend, which would make it more necromancer esq for all I know.. I just find this to be so far fetched.... Especially based on previous Specs.

    Besides togo is a filthy human... we have plenty of those to choose from....

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Ritualist was largely out of favour as a primary profession before Signet of Spirits was reworked into its best-known iteration, after which that was basically all it was used for in PvE.

    The only secondary element that isn't expressed in the Revenant yet (aside from all the generic monk/necro crossover spells that blend into the background) is weapon spells, which acted rather like preparations do on the Thief or Ranger. Probably wouldn't be a bad use for a Talon Silverwing themed elite spec actually.

    This is false. Ritualist was not favored before the SoS changed because their spirits took 3-5 seconds to cast. All of them did. After the change all spirits were updated and although SoS was the most common it wasn't nearly the most powerful build. Urn Builds were extremely common in Domain of Anguish and Protective spirit builds were a cornerstone of Underworld. The Urn build was extremely dominant for quite a while and the Soul Twisting build still very much exists. Weapon spells have always been used, and although Ritualist healers specifically as opposed to N/Rt healers are uncommon it is still a vital part of their identity we can't just drop from the ritualist's theme.

    You act like SoS was all there is, but the Ritualist was a very build rich Profession and to downplay that hurts my Veteran heart.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    Looks like Wooden Potatoes thinks it's an obvious choice as well. :)
    Revenant is at 06:30, since apparently embedding timestamped videos doesn't work.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:
    Looks like Wooden Potatoes thinks it's an obvious choice as well. :)
    Revenant is at 06:30, since apparently embedding timestamped videos doesn't work.

    Wooden Potatoes is extremely wrong. We know, I've mentioned how he's wrong before. He gets things wrong too.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wooden Potatoes is spitballing just like everyone else is at the moment. Trying to use him to back up your position when we have no reason to think he's got more information than anyone else who's well versed in the lore is an appeal to authority fallacy.

    On that question: ritualist and revenant absolutely are both using Mists magic. This is part of how ritualist is the oldest magical profession that was available to humans - it didn't rely on the weak magic of Tyria that was available before the gods tampered with the original Bloodstone. Once bloodstone magic was available, ritualists started using that too - but its ambiguous which form. (Personally, I'm inclined to think that they tapped into the same bloodstone that monks did - which would explain why they were good healers if they chose to be.) This is why there are a number of thematic similarities between the two - the tendency to cover their eyes, the third eye symbol, and so on.

    However, the significant differences between how they used this energy need to be acknowledged. Ritualist is based around calling spirits that are individually relatively weak but which can be summoned in numbers, which the ritualist keeps at arm's length. Revenants, on the other hand, grab the biggest echoes they can find and channel them directly into their own bodies (which one could say is acting as a substitute for an urn), augmenting their physical and magical capabilities, but each revenant can only channel one such legend at a time (although traits imply that they can passively draw something from one or two other legends at the same time).

    Is it possible for a revenant to develop ritualist-like abilities? Definitely... in fact, we've already seen that, in Kalla. On the other hand... we've already seen that. I'd rather see revenant get something new than two out of three elite specialisations being about pretending to be a Ritualist. And the point that it would be nice to see legends of the norn - a race whose entire culture is based around the concept of legend - is a valid one.

    Who would that be? Jora, I consider to be no better than Togo - AFAIK, everything we know about her deeds are things she did along with the GW1 PC. If you can take a potential legend and ask "why isn't the GW1 PC the legend instead", then I'm inclined to think you're not being ambitious enough with your choice. Svanir is, honestly, borderline - from the perspective of the norn, he was one scary monster among many in their history, the only reason I'd even consider him is because he inspired the Sons of Svanir. Asgeir is, I think, probably the strongest candidate that we know about.

    When it comes to necromancer picking up ritualist stuff, whether they're called a ritualist directly (and it's worth noting that there are necromancer enemies in GW1 and, I think, GW2 as well that are called "ritualist") or some other name... I think it makes sense. Yes, they're completely separate magics: necromancy is based on the death branch of the Tyrian magical spectrum, while ritualist magic is born of the Mists. However, these magics are not incompatible - even in the days of the Bloodstones, you could theoretically combine ritualist magic with anything because there was no 'Mists magic' bloodstone. So there's nothing stopping necromancers from picking up Mists magic, and I think there is evidence (such as Shadow Fiend and various spectral skills, maybe even the shroud itself) that they already have. Certainly, I can't see any reason why members of a profession who focuses on death-related magics wouldn't at least be curious about magic that allows them to call upon the spirits of the dead from the Mists. Heck, we see exactly this from a priestess of Grenth in the human personal story!

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If they give us Scepter they need to give us another offhand as well, preferably Focus, since neither Axe or Offhand Sword would synergize well with a Scepter mainhand. Plus it would be fitting and thematic to get both Scepter + Focus for a Rit spec at the same time. The precedent is set as well, with Spellbreaker getting both main and offhand dagger simultaneously, which are effectively different weapons in terms of code and usage.

    I'm not entirely convinced. Axe and sword both feel similar to guardian offhands, in that they can be used at range but you still get the most out of them if you get up close and personal. Axe in particular has fairly long-range skills, but one of them is a gap-closer. I could see it working, especially if scepter is balanced as more of a 'skirmishing' weapon that rewards getting close occasionally rather than being a completely stand-off weapon like hammer.

    The difference between Guardian offhands and Axe/offSword on Rev is that there are inherent defenses baked into all 3 of guard's offhand choices. Currently, Rev has 0 defensive options for offhands outside of Shield in Herald (and shield wouldn't mix with a hypothetical scepter for obvious reasons). You're right, Axe wouldn't be an awful choice to pair with a longer range scepter, but it's entirely offensive so it would only fill that niche. The gap closers on both could be useful, but would depend on what skills the mainhand scepter received, what utility skills the new legend provides, and what profession skills are added. One of the issues with Shortbow (and Mace/Axe for a long time) is the complete lack of defensive skills. I wouldn't want the same fate to befall any future mainhand weapon for Rev. I should rephrase my initial statement to say that adding a Focus (or any offhand for that matter) with long range abilities/some defensive utility alongside a mainhand scepter would provide additional (probably better) synergy and add a lot more build options for a class that's already hyper limited. It would allow a hypothetical scepter rev to have the choice of two hyper offensive offhands (axe/sword) or a 3rd offhand with some damage/utility/defense (focus).

    Somehow missed this before, and wanted to respond to it, so here goes:

    I would note that you have to squint pretty hard to find inherent defenses baked into guardian torch. It's very much a 'best defense is a good offense' weapon, with Cleansing Flames not even cleansing the user. Off the top of my head, I don't think there are even any traits that can allow torch to become defensive.

    That said, you do make a valid point in that more defensive options in general would probably be valuable for the revenant.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Wooden Potatoes is spitballing just like everyone else is at the moment. Trying to use him to back up your position when we have no reason to think he's got more information than anyone else who's well versed in the lore is an appeal to authority fallacy.

    On that question: ritualist and revenant absolutely are both using Mists magic. This is part of how ritualist is the oldest magical profession that was available to humans - it didn't rely on the weak magic of Tyria that was available before the gods tampered with the original Bloodstone. Once bloodstone magic was available, ritualists started using that too - but its ambiguous which form. (Personally, I'm inclined to think that they tapped into the same bloodstone that monks did - which would explain why they were good healers if they chose to be.) This is why there are a number of thematic similarities between the two - the tendency to cover their eyes, the third eye symbol, and so on.

    Not quite. To say this is the case you could also make the Argument that the Thief/Assassin and necromancer are also using Mist magic from that form of logic. You could say that all magic originates from the mists and that argument could be valid, however it doesn't quite work here as we're looking at specific functions. Necromancer is a summoner, they are calling otherworldly entities and spirits as the ritualist does, as the necromancer does. The primary Difference between the Necromancer/Ritualist and Revenant is that Revenant is not limited to the dead. The Necromancer/Ritualist absolutely is. its the type of Magic they use. Both of them breach into the Mists, and that is technically true. But its not Mist magic. They're using the threads that are already there. In the Ritualists own description in the Manuscript you can actually read "The Ritualist can also use the remains of the dead to defend the living-not by reanimating corpses as a Necromancer would, but through the ritual use of urns and ashes." This was there way of distinguishing it from necromancer, but the differences between the two was fairly minor. They're using ashes as a conduit, partially because magic was weaker then.

    Back to revenant, the revenant can actually break through time and Space. Which we see with the Renegade spec. They can rip reality apart to a minor extend which suggests that their magic is far more divergent than people initially would have thought. There magic is unique compared to the other classes. There is also suggestion the Ranger is also connected with the spirit world from the Ritualist's manuscript in GW1 which hurts the case that the Ritualist is using Mist magic specifically.

    Is it possible for a revenant to develop ritualist-like abilities? Definitely... in fact, we've already seen that, in Kalla. On the other hand... we've already seen that. I'd rather see revenant get something new than two out of three elite specialisations being about pretending to be a Ritualist. And the point that it would be nice to see legends of the norn - a race whose entire culture is based around the concept of legend - is a valid one.

    I agree. They could. But Revenant could develop abilities of all existing and extinct professions in the game. Because they're not limited by time or space they can take ancient teachings or future teachings from anywhere as long as they know how to search the Mists for it. Revenant could Summon a necromancer. There are plenty powerful enough from Vizier Khilbron, Trahearne, Oola(She wasn't actually a necromancer in GW1 but she did use necromancy to enhance her golems) or they could channel a powerful Warrior like Turai Ossa or yes, Jora.

    Mist magic is all encompassing. Since we could make the argument that in the lore of the game all magic comes from the mists so the revenant would be tapping into that primeval power for sure. But that's speculative.

    When it comes to necromancer picking up ritualist stuff, whether they're called a ritualist directly (and it's worth noting that there are necromancer enemies in GW1 and, I think, GW2 as well that are called "ritualist") or some other name... I think it makes sense. Yes, they're completely separate magics: necromancy is based on the death branch of the Tyrian magical spectrum, while ritualist magic is born of the Mists. However, these magics are not incompatible - even in the days of the Bloodstones, you could theoretically combine ritualist magic with anything because there was no 'Mists magic' bloodstone. So there's nothing stopping necromancers from picking up Mists magic, and I think there is evidence (such as Shadow Fiend and various spectral skills, maybe even the shroud itself) that they already have. Certainly, I can't see any reason why members of a profession who focuses on death-related magics wouldn't at least be curious about magic that allows them to call upon the spirits of the dead from the Mists. Heck, we see exactly this from a priestess of Grenth in the human personal story!

    Ritualist magic is Death magic. They require connecting to lingering spirits and the use of a sort of focus like Ashes or bones to achieve their magics. Not only is that in the lore of the game with the ashes which are a physical thing but its also in their design which takes heavy inspiration from Shamanistic and necromancy practices in Real life. If You're unaware, Necromancy is the practice that evolved from old Shamanistic beliefs. In the practice of Necromancy the necromancer would use bones, ashes objects worn by the person they're trying to channel in order for them to achieve the summoning. The Ritualist does this too and beyond just that the Ritualist covers themselves in Bones. More so than the Necromancer did in GW1. They both did wear bones and animal leather but the Ritualist actually did it more, suggesting their connection with death was more pure and more accurate to real world necromancy. You can see the bones in their Armor too. They wear them Decoratively and this design is likely to entice the dead to come to their call. The ritualist also Dances, which hearkens back to the Shamanistic inspiration.

    Another correction I want to make. The Bloodstone Didn't give the humans or any other race magic. That just isn't true. Magic Existed before the Bloodstone did and Abaddon supposedly brought the Magic to Tyria, according to the Human Myth. The bloodstone was put in place as a regulator that broke up the power of all magics so that no one could pull from the whole spectrum and send the world into chaos. Magic has become far less stable and far more powerful since GW1 which we see in Game and is referenced multiple times. Even the Djinn mention it, one actually says they feel the flow of magic and talk about how they can access all the elemental magics, something that was impossible 250 years ago. Something to keep note.

    Necromancer and Ritualist Both have the Same Roots in the real world and Much of the Ritualist's Lore and visual identity has been adopted into the necromancer in GW2 as armors that are designed for necromancers are often covered in animal or human bones and their weapons are the same. They take up the task of fairing lost souls and communing with the dead. I was obsessed with necromancy when I was in highschool and a bit into my 20s and learned a LOT about it, so when I see ritualist's design It is very very clear to me that it is necromancy in its purest form.

    What the Ritualist is doing, by definition is necromancy. Ritualist was controversial back in GW1 too because the community felt that the ritualist was stepping on necromancer's design space. And its still a controversy in GW2 because Arena Net did not have very good Foresight on this.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the first general theme: You're focusing on the actual summons the Ritualist had and ignoring the rest of the profession. The teal lightning that many of the attack spells have? That's essentially the energy of the Mists being pulled into the physical world to serve as a weapon. Spirit Rift, for instance, name aside (a lot of skill names derive from in-universe misconceptions about what is actually going on, like monk magic being associated with Dwayna) is the same general concept behind Rift Slash: you open a rift into the Mists which results in an explosion when the rift reaches a certain size.

    Then there's the Restoration heals. That's just not something that necromancy did back in GW1. Heck, the concept that healing through necromancy requires taking life energy from something else is still in GW2, it's just "under the hood" a bit, so to speak.

    Regardless, there is an important distinction between death magic and ritualist magic. Death magic is, ultimately, Tyrian magic. Ritualist magic has some Tyrian magic in there, but the original form of it was purely through drawing power from the Mists in one fashion or another. Ultimately, both ritualist and revenant operate by opening a conduit to the Mists to access some source of power within. The exact nature of the power varies: ritualist focuses on calling upon the spirits of the dead (but have some things they can do otherwise), while revenant is more oriented towards drawing from legends, which seem to be more echoes in the Mists rather than necessarily being linked to the original spirits of the entities in question. One could say that these represent different branches of Mists magic, similar to how there are different branches of Tyrian magic, but there is one important distinction between the magic used by ritualists and revenants and the magic used by everyone else:

    Other professions draw magical energy from their surroundings. Revenants and ritualist, on the other hand, primarily operate by opening a conduit to somewhere else within the Mists, and draw power from there. They just have different targets for their conduits - ritualists target the realms of the dead in order to draw through individual spirits, while revenants target the echoes in the Mists formed by particularly impressive entities. This fundamental distinction overrides any superficial thematic similarities that there might be. A ritualist's magic isn't related to necromancer magic, even if it often relates to dead spirits, any more than a revenant's ability to throw heals, buffs, and protection around (Jalis, Ventari, Glint...) is related to guardian magic. They're not even different branches of magic, but entirely different forms of magic - other professions draw on local magical sources, revenants and ritualists reach deep into the Mists for power.

    Your comments about real-world mediums is, honestly, pretty much irrelevant. Yes, that's called "necromancy", but in the fantasy genre, the term "necromancer" rarely refers to a medium, but usually to... well, something similar to the GW necromancer.

    So... ritualist magic and necromancer magic may have some common themes, but in terms of what they actually are, necromancer magic is closer to guardian magic than it is to ritualist magic. Necromancers call on magic in the death part of the spectrum from Tyria's own magical field, or the magical field of wherever they happen to be. Ritualists draw on the part of the Mists that is associated with the souls of the dead. (Which raises a question of how well ritualist magic would even work in the present day with the disruption to those realms that has occurred during and after PoF.)

    None of which says that necromancers can't add ritualist magic to their toolbox as an elite specialisation, since at least some elite specialisations are based around the concept of adding a form of magic to a profession that the profession does not normally have (examples: spellbreaker, druid). In fact, they have plenty of incentive to do so: truly gaining an understanding of death would benefit from a proficiency with both local death magic, and of the realms of the dead in the Mists. Heck, it's entirely likely that Scourge shades are an example of exactly this principle. However, they are still very different ways of performing magic. Ritualist and revenant magic are, when you get down to it, more similar to each other than to any other magic type we know about.

    Regarding your comments about the bloodstones: Magical history is complex, but it pretty much goes as follows:

    Towards the end of the last Dragonrise: The Seers collected all the ambient magic they could that the dragons had not already consumed and sealed it into the original bloodstone. This reduced the ambient magical energy in Tyria sufficiently to put the Elder Dragons into hibernation.

    Immediately after last Dragonrise: Ambient magic is extremely scarce - barely enough to sustain life on Tyria. Most of Tyria's magic is contained within the original bloodstone and the Elder Dragons.

    Arrival of the Gods: The gods restore life to much of Tyria (this is part of the reason why they're seen as creators by more than just humans). Ambient magic that isn't tied up in living beings or the bloodstones and is thus available to use as magic, however, remains weak. This is probably why the ritualist developed during this period - drawing power from the Mists removes the limitations of the weak magic available at the time. Magic was present, but not very strong unless you were an entity that had some power hoarded up already, or the power was given by such an entity.

    Initial unlocking of the bloodstone: Magical power spikes, wars start all over the place, Doric comes to Arah to ask the gods to put the genie back into the bottle.

    Splitting of the bloodstone: The gods break the bloodstone into pieces with the goal of weakening magic, specifically in a manner that encourages cooperation. The energy from four of the five largest pieces formed the basis of the four primary schools of Tyrian magic.

    Around the period of Guild Wars 1: Ambient magic raises to the point where the Elder Dragons start awakening. The effect of the bloodstones as a magical regulator, as opposed to simply being giant magic batteries, erodes. While the magical schools continue to exist because that's how people are used to magic working, they steadily broaden in scope and become more powerful.

    I think your attempt to "correct" me is rooted in GW1 lore, which was shown to only be myth in GW2 lore. As shown in the Seer path of Arah, the magic that came in the "Gift of Magic" by Abaddon did not come from the gods, but came from magical energy sealed in the bloodstone during the last Dragonrise by the Seers. The gods may have empowered some select followers beforehand, and Abaddon claimed credit for the "gift of magic" and probably did play a role in teaching those races he could get to how to use it, but the original source of most of it was that original bloodstone that the Seers made. It's still true that the actions of the gods resulted in returning magic to the world, but they did so through unlocking an artifact created to suck up as much of Tyria's magic as possible before the Elder Dragons did.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't mind new professions over new Elite specs tbh.
    If Anet can successfully translate a GW1 spec and evolve it to fit into GW2's combat system, I'll be down for it.

    Last thing I want is something being Ritualist only in name, but plays extremely differently. (Maybe this is the reason why Revenant is called Revenant)
    It'll also be nice if "Ritualist" didn't clash mechanics with other Professions, but looking at Revenant, I think Revenant and Ritualist are gonna clash for sure.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Revenant wont get ritualist. Its not going to happen for them. You're going to have to get over that.

    No one is more fiting for ritualist than revenant, in fact revenant's PvP title say it all:
    Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Conqueror#achievement2399

    Win 150 rated arena games as a revenant.Sending my enemies to meet the legends.
    Title: Title icon.png Champion Ritualist

    Now, at the same time, since ANet don't create e-specs with the same name as the PvP title, it mean that there will not be any "ritualist" e-spec for any profession.

    I wait with baited breath for Guardian to get Paragon, then.

    It's likely that "Ritualist", per se, will never get used as an elite spec name. We'll get some other name applied to any such elite spec, so they can leave the opportunity open to use similar themes and mechanics for another elite specialisation on another profession some time in the future. "Renegade" has a nice ring to it, maybe it could be based on summoning the warband members of one of the leaders of the revolution against the Flame Legion or something?