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ANET balance team should be required to play each class for a day for 2 weeks in pvp.


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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

viability=ability to work successfully. Since there are players who can make it work, it is viable --> the frame for success is there + 2v2 isnt the measure for balance + there are classes that are overperforming, that doesnt say anything about the power level of mirage, because other classes struggle with these classes the same way. Mirage might be not meta, not the optimal pick, not the easiest class to succeed with. That however doesnt mean it isnt viable. It certainly is still a strong pick for both unranked 5v5 and 2v2.

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 you wouldnt know what viable means even if it hit you over the head mateI only quoted the definition of the word but ok

That is a general definition, it is more or less just the minimum definition of viable what isn't rly complete and fitting for gaming. In gaming viable has a bit different meaning from what i know. Viable means it can compete in terms of impactfulness/ effectiveness with other meta builds and that with a comparable amount of skill and effort requirement. What simply is not the case atm.But sure if you define viable as simple "able to exist" and being semiplayable while it would make more sense to just switch the class to have the same or even more reward/ impact on matches with way less effort/ skill requirement, then you are right. Just that this not rly gaming orientated definition is not a good base to decide if a class is balanced well or not, if it is in a good state/ spot ingame or not. It is only good to use if you want to make a class look/sound stronger than it actually is.

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strong pick in ranked omegalul, I had to struggle through bronze players, that were so bad that their strategy was sitting in the corner and healing eachother.I had to go glass cannon to put any dent, and every round I almost died to retaliation alone.when I switched to necro, in the same ranking I legit did not drop under 90% HP a single time, I didnt have to dodge entire time I played.I dished out more CC and damage, while having 15 times more effective HP. I had More stronger CC, More damage, Aoe.Sustain was at least 10 times bigger and im not even blowing this out of proportion.For every hit I take on mesmer I can take 15 times more hits on necro.

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@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

What in the blazes?...Try a condi mirage! They're still pretty formidable, especially in Hall of the MIsts.

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

What in the blazes?...Try a condi mirage! They're still pretty formidable, especially in Hall of the MIsts.

Why don't I choose thieves? they better than mirage in every way.Even the core mesmer is better than mirage.The negative effect of choice mirage is even higher than that of choice blank

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:strong pick in ranked omegalul, I had to struggle through bronze players, that were so bad that their strategy was sitting in the corner and healing eachother.I had to go glass cannon to put any dent, and every round I almost died to retaliation alone.when I switched to necro, in the same ranking I legit did not drop under 90% HP a single time, I didnt have to dodge entire time I played.I dished out more CC and damage, while having 15 times more effective HP. I had More stronger CC, More damage, Aoe.Sustain was at least 10 times bigger and im not even blowing this out of proportion.For every hit I take on mesmer I can take 15 times more hits on necro.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/577610131...

Top teams running mesmers while no Top team running the legendary double bird uber killer ranger build which apparently can down anything by simply looking at them.....do you see what I see?...DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?....Top teams playing mesmers while fanboys cry over their loss of condi mirage...oh sorry..It's called normalization of the spec from OP status...I will be waiting of your videos of Top team running the legendary double bird build dealing 30-40k dmg like the open arena screenshots

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@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Logically you should be well versed in the subject matter you are trying to manipulate if you wish to be successful.

Wish I was getting paid to sit on my thumb and twist. ANET PVP balance team hire me! Seems like an ez fookin job, 'cause you do nothing.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/577610131

I was expecting top teams running 5 ranger with double bird.... accordingly to the forum and the "devs" listening to it, ranger is the uber OP class with pets one shotting anything with 1 hit, any outsider would read the forum and would think that a ranger or a lightning rod ele are the most OP specs ever created...then Top teams running with double rev during tournament...not a single ranger...not a single lightning rod...yeah the devs should play their own game instead than paying attention to the forum banter

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @"bravan.3876" exchange. ^^

Luzifer, please provide evidence of you or anyone playing any sort of Mirage successfully at a consistent competitive level, apart from one or two top players in the game who would undoubtedly do well playing almost any build. Feel free to list the many current top ranked Mirage players you mentioned.

Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:strong pick in ranked omegalul, I had to struggle through bronze players, that were so bad that their strategy was sitting in the corner and healing eachother.I had to go glass cannon to put any dent, and every round I almost died to retaliation alone.when I switched to necro, in the same ranking I legit did not drop under 90% HP a single time, I didnt have to dodge entire time I played.I dished out more CC and damage, while having 15 times more effective HP. I had More stronger CC, More damage, Aoe.Sustain was at least 10 times bigger and im not even blowing this out of proportion.For every hit I take on mesmer I can take 15 times more hits on necro.

...

Top teams running mesmers while no Top team running the legendary double bird uber killer ranger build which apparently can down anything by simply looking at them.....do you see what I see?...
DO YOU SEE WHAT I SEE?
....Top teams playing mesmers while fanboys cry over their loss of condi mirage...oh sorry..It's called normalization of the spec from OP status...I will be waiting of your videos of Top team running the legendary double bird build dealing 30-40k dmg like the
open arena
screenshots

Were they portal bots?

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Logically you should be well versed in the subject matter you are trying to manipulate if you wish to be successful.

Wish I was getting paid to sit on my thumb and twist. ANET PVP balance team hire me! Seems like an ez fookin job, 'cause you do nothing.

I was expecting top teams running 5 ranger with double bird.... accordingly to the forum and the "devs" listening to it, ranger is the uber OP class with pets one shotting anything with 1 hit, any outsider would read the forum and would think that a ranger or a lightning rod ele are the most OP specs ever created...
then Top teams running with double rev during tournament
...not a single ranger...not a single lightning rod...yeah the devs should play their own game instead than paying attention to the forum banter

You ppl somehow cannot distinguish between opness and brokenness on one side and usefulness for conquest roles on the other side. Best example might be Condirev. It is still kind of broken it is way to rewarding to play in terms of easy offensive play by braindead skillspam being rewarded and defensive play by being way too tanky for the dmg it can pull out easy. In 2v2 top dog. In conquest? Not that much because the lack of mobility and other stuff (like 4-5 ppl can focus him here not only 2 on small maps he can just cover with his condi spam). Doesn't Condirev need nerfs still, also when not rly that useful in conquest? Ofc in terms of getting a balance state where stuff has a good risk-reward relation and is not braindead playable it still needs nerfs. If you start to buff mechanics which are useless in conquest to make them useful in conquest by simple being utterly op and broken you will not get a good PvP balance ever. Some stuff simply will not be the best for any role in conquest by simpel mechanics. You either change the mechanic or you play other builds (like Powerrev instead Condirev in conquest) on that class have more mechanical usefulness for conquest or you play a different class. Compensating a lack of mechanical usefulness in conquest by buffing it into braindead playable and op brokenness to make it conquest meta is not the way.

Ranger is one example of being way to easy to play and having unhealthy and way too low skill ceiling stuff availabe while still not being the most useful for any role in conquest and counterable by coordinated teams. That we didn't see 5 Ranger teams with Birds (a good duel pet choice but too squishy in a 5v5 mode for example) doesn't say anything about how easy or broken something is. It just says how useful for any role in conquest something is. Ranger has good viability in ranked still but 5v5 vs coordinated teams Ranger is simply not the best choice for any role. And one Rev meme team in MATs showed pretty well, how even stacking the most braindead Rev specs doesn't make you win in the end. There is a difference between builds good in carrying low skill vs builds good in carrying a team in conquest mode.

Sadly is: Meta gets what can do both in the end.

Why? Because Gw2 still rewards low risk and low skill way too much. The balance patch philosophy is good but the implementation was not successful until now. In some cases it even killed skill ceiling (Soubeast pet swap deletion, Mirage one dodge) and made skillful builds even worse for the sake of nerfing some op stuff without even solving the balance issues by its roots (Obsidian Flash change killing FA even more, while bunkerish and low skill ceiling Ele builds still overperfrom, one dodge change on Mirage kills skillful power builds and even dumbs down the whole spec) and which could have been nerfed in a way not affecting other builds not op at all. Trade off agenda is still a mess too.

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Not sure what you mean here tbh. What exchange from me? Who backpedals from what towards what?
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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Luzifer, please provide evidence of you or anyone playing any sort of Mirage successfully at a consistent competitive level, apart from one or two top players in the game who would undoubtedly do well playing almost any build. Feel free to list the many current top ranked Mirage players you mentioned.

Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.

How so:> @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

viability=ability to work successfully. Since there are players who can make it work, it is viable --> the frame for success is there + 2v2 isnt the measure for balance + there are classes that are overperforming, that doesnt say anything about the power level of mirage, because other classes struggle with these classes the same way. Mirage might be not meta, not the optimal pick, not the easiest class to succeed with. That however doesnt mean it isnt viable. It certainly is still a strong pick for both unranked 5v5 and 2v2.

I had to explain the same thing over and over..

Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.I am sorry but I wont repeat myself again. Reasoning is perfectly fine, look it up or leave it be, I dont care at this point.

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Luzifer, please provide evidence of you or anyone playing any sort of Mirage successfully at a consistent competitive level, apart from one or two top players in the game who would undoubtedly do well playing almost any build. Feel free to list the many current top ranked Mirage players you mentioned.

Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.

How so:> @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

viability=ability to work successfully. Since there are players who can make it work, it is viable --> the frame for success is there + 2v2 isnt the measure for balance + there are classes that are overperforming, that doesnt say anything about the power level of mirage, because other classes struggle with these classes the same way. Mirage might be not meta, not the optimal pick, not the easiest class to succeed with. That however doesnt mean it isnt viable. It certainly is still a strong pick for both unranked 5v5 and 2v2.

I had to explain the same thing over and over..

Mostly your tone. Your earlier post was very absolutist, while the later one has a number of qualifiers.

@bravan.3876 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Not sure what you mean here tbh. What exchange from me? Who backpedals from what towards what?

See above. Exchange = the discussion you had with them here.

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