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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Raids suffered from lots of things and the primary reason IMO is the reason I keep telling you. I get you have a problem with how I said only ... get over it. It doesn't make my point any less relevant.

As Scarlet would say "Hooray for progress!" Btw I'm not a psychic, I respond to what is written.As for your actual "point", you already admitted that it doesn't explain the first 2 years of Raids. We have delays and bad schedules (and other things as already explained in page 1) that can justify the reduction in Raid population/popularity over time, while explaining the first 2 years, and another point, "not being consistent content offering" that doesn't... I can't change opinions so I will leave it at that.

Actually, I did explain how my POV can coexist with all these these things in several posts with someone else. /shrug.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

Raids weren't
the
money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing. What the anti-raid crowd is forgetting in every new tirade against raids is the fact that the overwhelming majority of raiders are playing the open world content as well including achievement hunting, weapon & armor collections.

what the pro-raider crowd is forgetting that anet balanced everything around raids, almost killing pvp and wvw. And hasn't recovered even after the big balance patch a couple of weeks ago.

So raids actually HURT the game. Very, very hard.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Obtena.7952 said:We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

consistencyinofferings

Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

Raids weren't
the
money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing. What the anti-raid crowd is forgetting in every new tirade against raids is the fact that the overwhelming majority of raiders are playing the open world content as well including achievement hunting, weapon & armor collections.

what the pro-raider crowd is forgetting that anet balanced everything around raids, almost killing pvp and wvw. And hasn't recovered even after the big balance patch a couple of weeks ago.

So raids actually HURT the game. Very, very hard.

While I won't disagree that it took way to long to get skill splits, let's stay honest here: the competitive modes, especially spvp, were hurting long before raids and the biggest lack of resources here was content and variety, hardly balance. I mean over the years the devs have tried to encourage play of spvp and wvw, mostly to no avail.

Face the simple reality: many players do not enjoy them and never have or will enter them. This in part shares a similarity to raids, but unlike raids, which are still to some extent pve content, competitive modes are player versus player content, which a large part of any player base disagrees with in MMORPGs (see Eve Online statistics, or comparative MMORPGs and the ratio of pve to pvp players).

So while yes, the balance around pve and pve competitive content will not have helped, it was hardly the cause for these game modes decline and certainly not the reason for them being in the place they are now (which in case of spvp can be attributed to many other factors, a big one especially that it reigns supreme as most toxic game mode in this game bar none for casual players).

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@"Swagger.1459" said:1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

I totally agree, raids are the most toxic environment of the game, since there is no well-defined raid system, practically the players do what they want to the point of deciding who can and cannot play since they are 7 years old and ARENANET at no does nothing about it! It seems irresponsible to me that despite having bought the 2 expansions I do not have access to the raids!Ask for 500 li for a VG and as if that was not enough ask for the PIN.I think 7 years has been a lot of abuse and that the raids need a change !!

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@Shikaru.7618 said:You people need to stop joining groups that clearly dont want you. If you're joining 500 kp groups and you have 2 that's not the group being toxic. That's on you.

Why not join the many other people who also complain about toxicity on this forum and form your own welcoming group? The key to successful raiding is like minded individuals. If you want to play a minion reaper, form a group of other players that want to play longbow dh, shortbow thief, etc

don't you understand the problem?It is logical that if I join a group that asks for 500 kp they will not accept me !!But that is called private or custom groups, they can ask for what they want and it would not be a problem if there was a raids system, the problem is that the only way to play a raid is by joining a group of that?

Did you understand or I explain it with apples?

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@Odysseus.6317 said:Ask for 500 li for a VG and as if that was not enough ask for the PIN.In EU i see a decent amount of trainings (mostly during the WE) in the lfg. Theres also several discord servers dedicated to teaching people the mechanics of the bosses.While they might not do Dhuum or Qadim, you might find a static that is willing to take you and teach you the more demanding encounters.

I think 7 years has been a lot of abuse and that the raids need a change !!Uh Raids arent 7 years old though.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Stalvros.9217" said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

Do you think that more population will see more people playing raids?Or do you think that if 1 million people register now and start playing gw2, Adhasim will increase 6.094%?If for the regular player it is impossible to play raid due to the problem of the "raid system" which does not exist since it is the same players who decide who can and cannot play, 1 million new players have a chance?

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@"Odysseus.6317" said:

Do you think that more population will see more people playing raids?Or do you think that if 1 million people register now and start playing gw2, Adhasim will increase 6.094%?If for the regular player it is impossible to play raid due to the problem of the "raid system" which does not exist since it is the same players who decide who can and cannot play, 1 million new players have a chance?

The "raidplayers" only have a monopoly on raidgroups as long as the "regular players" do not take advantage of their ability to start their own groups, for which they get to set rules and requirements.

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@Odysseus.6317 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:You people need to stop joining groups that clearly dont want you. If you're joining 500 kp groups and you have 2 that's not the group being toxic. That's on you.

Why not join the many other people who also complain about toxicity on this forum and form your own welcoming group? The key to successful raiding is like minded individuals. If you want to play a minion reaper, form a group of other players that want to play longbow dh, shortbow thief, etc

don't you understand the problem?It is logical that if I join a group that asks for 500 kp they will not accept me !!But that is called private or custom groups, they can ask for what they want and it would not be a problem if there was a raids system, the problem is that the only way to play a raid is by joining a group of that?

Except: that is not the only way to play raids. Why? Because there is groups that do NOT demand 500 LI/KP (or even any amount).

Your entire argument falls apart the moment you realize that groups, player skill level and raid participation is not a binary system.

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Could we program a system where you get lower gold per time you spent on the raid ? (just like PvP matches - full reward after the 8:30 min )Or typically get less rewardsAnd you can counter that by creating a Group in the aerodrome (where your message can be seen across all other aerodrome + Lions Ark +WvWvW +PvP + Personal Story (but not open PvE))

Aerodrome is called a Hub ...because its a hub for same minded people ?

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I think the thread is long past the point of certain important concepts I deem more significant for discussion, but I'll just add this (TLDR at end):

  1. Raids were indeed successful at some stage. I do not challenge this idea, if for no other reason than the devs said this was the case at some point. What constitutes "success" is a potentially complicated discussion for any context, especially for in a gaming situation where clearly measurable indicators of "success" (increased revenue, player engagement - which in and of itself could spawn it's own discussion as to what that means - with the game mode, etc).

  2. Raids were almost guaranteed to fail in the long run. This is the point that I think @Obtena.7952 has been unfairly criticized for by a number of you. One of the best things about GW2, in my opinion, is how un-demanding the vast majority of its pve is. You can get so much and get so far in this game without ever realizing how downright awful you are at combat. If that's true, then it wouldn't be surprising to find (as almost any veteran player can anecdotally agree) that the vast majority of players you come across in this game are just not well-suited to pay (in terms of time and effort) to become a solid raider. In turn, it shouldn't surprise anyone that a portion of the pve defined by how much harder it is than everything else, and designed for people who enjoy challenge for the sake of challenge, just doesn't retain the attention of such a huge portion of people who love most everything else about GW2 pve. It would be like trying to sell super expensive, hard-to-drive, but also extremely high-performing cars to a market populated mostly by consumers who are primarily interested in commuting to work safely and shuttling their kids to after-school activities on time. It's not that it's a bad car, it's that the people you're trying to sell it to have so many other options that fit their desires much better, and at lower cost.

  3. Raids could have been managed better, perhaps to the extent that they could have avoided the near-certain failure I describe in point 2 above. Since I did not participate in raids until very recently, I can't offer any direct experience about how I saw the delayed release of wing 6 affect the raiding community. However, I did very recently land my first boss kill in Stronghold of the Faithful, thanks to a great leader (who portal carried us through cannon captures and explained everything clearly) and a fun training group. I can see that with proper leadership and just a few heavy hitters, some raid encounters can be cleared even if most people are new and there to learn. Perhaps if raiding (particularly the release schedule) was managed in such a way that more people stayed interested in it and got good enough (and invested enough) to stick around to carry others, more patient raiding groups would be more widespread.

I find this situation very, very weakly analogous to the state of some of the explorable dungeon paths (particularly niche ones like the Aetherpath). So many players who come into my groups are just... bad. Even after telling them what to do, many just don't hit very hard, struggle to survive, aren't providing useful team benefits their class is capable of putting out, and fail to do mechanics. However, I can still carry people through much of the hardest stuff on my own, because I managed to learn dungeons and enjoyed them enough to keep doing them. The learning threshold is of course much, much lower for soloing dungeons, so it's not hard to teach newer folks to get closer to where I am with dungeons. If dungeons were kept alive long enough to generate more players like me, they'd probably see a lot more traffic. But dungeons were not managed well, and now there's just so much else to do in the game that doesn't involve farming a million bags of Purloined Goods or the dungeon frequenter achievement; most people are just happy to get carried through a few then call it quits. If the opportunity cost is already so unfavorable for a fast and easy activity like dungeons, how much more so must that be true for raids?

TLDR: Raids were set to fight a steeply uphill battle from the very beginning. However, if raids had been managed better just long enough to generate and retain players capable of hard carrying learners, raids might have had a better chance. Instead, it seems ANet fumbled raids a bit, lost the chance to develop and retain greater numbers of raiders in the process, and now we have a relatively small slice of the raiding community valiantly trying to get new people hooked.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

  1. Content is too hard for the masses.

True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

  1. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:
  1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).
  2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.
  3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

  1. The rewards are not equal to the content.

Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

@Dante.1508 said:On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things.
Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference
.

TL;DR:For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

Its not my first mmorpg i've done many raids in other mmo's, raids are all the same content and those elitists flock to the content, in all mmos.. GW2 is no different, i gave up the tread mill of raids a long time back its a horrible experience.

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@Dante.1508 said:

  1. Content is too hard for the masses.

True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

  1. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:
  1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).
  2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.
  3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

  1. The rewards are not equal to the content.

Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

@Dante.1508 said:On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things.
Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference
.

TL;DR:For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

Its not my first mmorpg i've done many raids in other mmo's, raids are all the same content and those elitists flock to the content, in all mmos.. GW2 is no different, i gave up the tread mill of raids a long time back its a horrible experience.

Well thanks for at least being so open about this, here:

prejudice/ˈprɛdʒʊdɪs/Learn to pronouncenounnoun: prejudice; plural noun: prejudices

1.preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

or, if you want the one from the Cambrdige Dictionary:

prejudicenoun [ C or U ]uk/ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/ us/ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/B2an unfair and unreasonable opinion or feeling, especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge

I get it, you are opinionated and have strong feelings on this subject, but even you must realize how prejudicial your approach is on this matter. You are basically judging thousands of players and content whom you have neither interacted with, nor even played the content in a substantial way to make any judgments.

As far as other MMO's, I've raided in most that I've played, be it Dark Age of Camelot during Atlantis, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Eve Online, etc. and I would absolutely not call all of them equal or even similar in approach. I would even less dare make judgement calls about the player who play them, since the spectrum of characters and play styles I've seen could fill books.

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@"Odysseus.6317" said:Or do you think that if 1 million people register now and start playing gw2, Adhasim will increase 6.094%?

It depends on their attitude. If those 1 million people that register now are toxic and want to take advantage of others and join groups they don't belong to, it will only lead to more complaint posts on the forums instead of more players playing raids. Complaints by toxic people, blaming other toxic people. Instead if they lose the toxic/entitled attitude, join actual guilds and find like-minded individuals to play with, then the raid population will increase. Remember that KP and LI requirements exist because such toxic players exist, if all players were true and honest there would be no need for those.

Edit: and in the end it wouldn't increase the Key of Ahdashim rates, new raiders will always be directed to the initial Heart of Thorns Raids instead, Path of Fire Raids will always lack in popularity due to their rewards not worth the time and effort to learn them. Also, to earn the specific/unique reward of the Path of Fire Raids, you need to finish the hardest Raid in the game, Hall of Chains, before proceeding to the much easier Key of Ahdashim (or Mythright Gambit).

Meaning, if you want raid rewards like Ascended items, go play Heart of Thorns Raids, if you want exclusive rewards (Legendary) go play Heart of Thorns Raids. The Path of Fire raids have the hard lock of Hall of Chains for their unique reward (the Legendary Ring), barring further progress and making playing the later Raids of the expansion rather pointless. No matter how many new players join, and how much they love Raids, Path of Fire Raids were so badly managed and designed that only a major rework of their reward structure can "save" them.

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@Dante.1508 said:

  1. Content is too hard for the masses.

True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

  1. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:
  1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).
  2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.
  3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

  1. The rewards are not equal to the content.

Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

@Dante.1508 said:On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things.
Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference
.

TL;DR:For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

Its not my first mmorpg i've done many raids in other mmo's, raids are all the same content and those elitists flock to the content, in all mmos.. GW2 is no different, i gave up the tread mill of raids a long time back its a horrible experience.

What other mmo allows you to raid in optimal gear without having completed any raids to begin with? Your issue is not elitists. It is trying to join a group that clearly has different standards and expectations than your own instead of finding one that matches. Dont want a group that dps checks? Post that in your lfg listing, or start your own guild.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:and now we have a relatively small slice of the raiding community valiantly trying to get new people hooked.

NahhhFor 3 years they did and say the same things , like in these posts .The one thing they are doing , they believe they can brainwash ppl to see their point of view ...Rather to stay silent for 2 months .. let them express their pain and forget about anything .... but they keep reminding themIn the oppression game , there are bigger fish out there ..in summer..with less mods

1,5 year in the future ...3 raids afterwards and we will be in the same situation ...Thats my Oracle Balls sais :P

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:what the pro-raider crowd is forgetting that anet balanced everything around raids

That's one of the best jokes ever.

Nerfing engineers from a hard to play but solidly performing pve class again and again was a pve decision? Reworking and gutting scrapper multiple times so no pve player would ever touch the spec again was pve balancing? Reducing necromancer's damage to the point not even epidemic in a room full of add mobs can justify their usage wasn't done because they did not know how else to balance necros in pvp without removing their their core class ability's tankiness? Having to endure months and months of elementalists doing more damage by a wide margin than everyone else was not caused by pvp balancing where their squishiness actually mattered and could justify their abnormal high damage output?

I mean... seriously... can we base discussions on reality please?

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Ease of Partying, Difficulty and Rewards.

In FFXIV They have a daily random 8 man raid and a daily random 24 man raid. Outside of the fact that its fun you also get tombstones which allow you to get armor thats a few points under the current raid tier. I click a button and bam it finds me a group. If you havent unlocked the current raid tier then it cycles through previous raids but adjusts the ilvl of your gear so you actually out gear it. This way any filthy casual can enjoy the previous tier raid experience for good rewards and can blow through it in under 30 minutes unless you hit a few select bosses with hard mechanics.

All GW2 needs to do is put an actual legit dungeon/ raid finder that auto groups you by alacrity/ dps/ etc.. The fact people get to pick and choose who they want for dungeons and raids just breeds selective elitism. I dont even bother with GW2 group content because I cant be bothered to assemble a group or meet someone elses class bar. If they want that style of play they can make a custom group but have a daily auto party queue that scales the previous raid tier to be on par to yellow or orange gear so casuals can get through it and give me X amount of gold or reduced tokens for legendary gear or something like 1 token out of 1000 per armor piece or something one or two times daily and I bet you you'll get tons of casuals and hardcores doing it for fun and gold/ tokens. They say its a lot of work for only 6% of the population..... so make it more accessible so that your regular player base can do it....

TLDR: Give us a good daily gold reward, an actual dungeon/ raid auto party system, scale the encounters to yellow or orange gear for the daily previous raid tier queue and people will run them every day that's a guarantee

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In FFXIV the Duty Finder works, because:

  1. Each class is assigned one of the 3 basic roles (tank, healer, dps)
  2. different classes within the role are very balanced (there are differences, but are relatively small - compared to what can happen in gw2 they are basically negligible)
  3. effectiveness due to skill (within same class), while important, is also much, much smaller than what we're used to see here.As such, there's a reasonable assumption that a random group that fulfills basic role requirements, enforced by the Finder, should be fully capable of clearing the content, and the normal content (unlike Savage or Ultimate difficulties) can be balanced around such a random party.

None of those assumptions hold true for GW2 however, making creation of such a system an exercise in futility.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:In FFXIV the Duty Finder works, because:

  1. Each class is assigned one of the 3 basic roles (tank, healer, dps)
  2. different classes within the role are very balanced (there are differences, but are relatively small - compared to what can happen in gw2 they are basically negligible)
  3. effectiveness due to skill (within same class), while important, is also much, much smaller than what we're used to see here.As such, there's a reasonable assumption that a random group that fulfills basic role requirements, enforced by the Finder, should be fully capable of clearing the content, and the normal content (unlike Savage or Ultimate difficulties) can be balanced around such a random party.

None of those assumptions hold true for GW2 however, making creation of such a system an exercise in futility.

It really just depends on how they balance the encounters to be pugged by casuals. You are making an assumption that they cant play test and nerf the casual queue to the level of an ex dungeon or boost the player gear levels inside each these instances etc. Its a matter of tweaking the numbers, making it accessible and giving decent rewards.

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player a has bad raid experience at vale guardian 4 years ago (lots of time in spent in lfg, can't complete content, can't log in for training runs, toxic players, impatience, general lack of interest, doesn't like playing meta builds)

player a doesn't want to raid again

player a will actively tell people raids are a toxic hellhole, scaring off player b

raiders double down on this by putting obscene requirements on groups and generally putting down newer players because 5 minute clear speeds, dammit...

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