Concept: Siren Elite Specialization

[Tayga.3192]

Before starting, I want to point out that there is already a "Siren" themed skill in Mesmer: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siren%27s_CallAlso, special thanks to @"rdigeri.7935" for helping me with my design choices.

ThemeSince I heard this idea in another thread in this subforum, I wanted to design a soft-cc + cheap boons theme with shouts as new utilities.Main concept is that you get shouts and grant lots of aoe regeneration, swiftness, fury to allies and chill, immobilize, cripple, weaken, blind your foes. It also has transformation, an unseen mechanic in mesmer.You might want to bring a Siren if your comp has one or more builds that are weak to getting pressured. Siren's biggest strength is that it has taunts and non-damaging conditions. With these utility conditions, it can relieve pressure from high burst classes like thief, revenant and ranger with forcing them to retarget. It can also help against attrition classes with ccing them, cleansing their conditions and declining their cooldowns/kiting with chill and cripple.

F5This is not a shatter skill, but a transformation like Shroud so you gain extra life bar. The mesmer gains the ability to transform using an energy called "Allure".

• The mesmer gains a small amount of allure (1%ish) when they are hit. Allure decays very quickly while the mesmer is transformed, faster than reaper shroud.
• Allure has lower baseline than necromancer's shroud. It scales with vitality.
• When you are transformed, your allure replaces your health just like shroud.
• Your utilities are locked.
• This transformation has 10s cooldown
• It doesn't give 50% damage reduction like shroud does.
• You can't be healed while transformed. You still gain allure though.

Weapon skills are replaced with the following:1: Damage and apply cripple to nearby foes. (3/4s cast time, 240 radius)2: Leap to your target, damage and apply chill to them. (600 range leap, 10s cooldown)3: Taunt your target for 2s and deal damage. (3/4s cast time, 600 range, 20s cooldown, in competitive modes this skill has 0.01 coefficient)4: Evade and leap away from your target. Apply 1s weakness on your previous location. (Instant cast, 3/4s evade, 25s cooldown)5: Cleanse conditions from your allies in an area. (ground targeted, 2s cast time, 4 pulses, 35s cooldown)

WeaponSiren will get offhand warhorn.Warhorn 4: Grant fury to nearby allies and remove movement-impairing conditions. Apply 2s weakness and 2s blind to 3 nearby foes. (360 range, Instant cast, 25s cooldown)Warhorn 5: Create an illusion that grants swiftness to nearby allies and cripples nearby foes. (25s cooldown)

ShattersF1: Shatter. Destroy all your clones, damaging and crippling nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location. (Less damage compared to Mind Wrack)F2: Shatter. Destroy all your clones, confusing and blinding nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location. (Shorter confusion duration than Cry of Frustration)F3: Shatter. Destroy all your clones, dazing and chilling their targets. The shatter effect also occurs at your location. (Shorter daze duration than Diversion)F4: Shatter. Gain distortion, apply taunt (scaling with amount of clones you shattered) to nearby foes (260) and destroy all your clones. The shatter effect occurs at your location. (Basically just 1 seconds of distort even with 3 clones)

They have the same cooldown (if not 2-3 seconds higher) as core shatters.

UtilitiesThey are obviously shouts. They aren't "meaningful" words like usual shouts are. They are mostly loud cries.Unless stated otherwise, they affect 5 allies and/or 5 foes.Healing skill: Heal yourself (5k baseline) and gain allure for every nearby foe. If your allure is full after using this skill, remove 2 conditions. 480 range, 30s cd, 1s cast time.Utility 1: Damage and apply 2s immobilize to nearby foes. Grant swiftness and regeneration to your allies. 360 range, 28s cooldown, 1/4s cast time.Utility 2: Taunt nearby foes for 2.5s and gain regeneration. Gain 15% allure for every affected foe. 360 range, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast time.Utility 3: Break stun, gain vigor and apply 3 vulnerability to nearby foes. Unblockable. Your illusions gain 2s quickness. 360 range, 35s cooldown, instant cast.Utility 4: Chill nearby foes for 3 seconds and your next 4 attacks apply 1 confusion for 3 seconds. 360 range, 28s cooldown, 1/4s cast time.Elite skill: For a duration (3s), pull nearby foes to yourself. This skill can affect the same foe every 1s. (channeled skill, 480 range, 90s cd)

TraitsTop traits enhance your conditions and your damage.Middle traits enhance your warhorn, shouts and allure gain.Bottom traits enhance your taunts.

Adept Minor: You can now use offhand warhorn.Adept Top: Cripple you apply lasts 33% longer. Chill you apply lasts 15% longer. Immobilize you apply lasts 10% longer.Adept Middle: Your warhorn skills have 20% reduced cooldown, cleanse 1 condition from yourself and apply regeneration to nearby allies. Regeneration you apply is 15% stronger.Adept Bottom: Taunts you apply now pulse blindness every second. Taunting a foe grants you 5s fury.

Master Minor: You gain 5% allure for every clone you shatter. This effect counts the mesmer as a clone.Master Top: You deal 5% more damage to foes for every movement-impairing condition they have. You take 7% less damage from foes with at least one movement-impairing condition.Master Middle: Your shouts now have 15% less cooldown. Gain 15% allure for every foe affected by your shouts.Master Bottom: Taunting a foe torments them (2 stacks for 3 seconds, 15s icd). Taunts you apply last 25% longer.

Grandmaster Minor: Your shatters grant swiftness to your clones. When you summon a phantasm, your target is immobilized for 1s.Grandmaster Top: When you apply immobilize, grant allies near you and your target might, fury and swiftness.Grandmaster Middle: Your maximum allure cap is increased by 25%. You gain 5% allure every time you apply a movement-impairing condition.Grandmaster Bottom: Taunting or pulling a foe deals damage (scales by power). Gain 5% allure every time you taunt a foe.

Example bunker buildSword/Warhorn + StaffHealing Shout + Blink (or Signet of Illusions) + Utility 2 + Utility 3 + Elite ShoutPaladin amulet, traveler rune (or aristocracy rune)Inspiration: Bottom, Middle, MiddleChaos: Bottom, Bottom, BottomSiren: Middle, Middle, Middle

Example condition buildScepter/Pistol + StaffHealing Shout + Blink + Utility 3 + Utility 4 + Elite ShoutCarrion amulet, aristocracy rune (or traveler rune)Illusions: Top, Bottom, MiddleDueling: Bottom, Top, MiddleSiren: Bottom, Middle (maybe Bottom), Middle

Example power buildSword/Torch + GreatswordHealing Shout + Blink + Utility 2 + Utility 1 + Elite ShoutMarauder amulet, traveler or scholar runeDomination: Top, Top, BottomDueling: Top, Bottom, BottomSiren: Top, Top, Bottom

[Curunen.8729]

Ah, damn - nice job! xD Funny I'm in process of writing up another take on control oriented spec with Hammer, but I love the ideas you have especially for taunts.

[Tayga.3192]

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah, kitten - nice job! xDThanks.

Funny I'm in process of writing up another take on control oriented spec with HammerSeems interesting. I will definitely check that out if you end up posting.

[Curunen.8729]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah, kitten - nice job! xDThanks.

Funny I'm in process of writing up another take on control oriented spec with HammerSeems interesting. I will definitely check that out if you end up posting.

Thanks, I'll take care to avoid taunt on it - though a lot of things are different so no worry of overlap. :) Am about 70% of the way there, just some traits and one or two hammer skills to think about.

In any case I agree that cc mesmer is needed for the next elite - more synergy with Domination and interrupt/lockdown play.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Regarding the Siren elite spec, the thing that bothers me is the F skills being the sameish.Also plox remove clones :/

@Curunen.8729 said:In any case I agree that cc mesmer is needed for the next elite - more synergy with Domination and interrupt/lockdown play.

Yes please!

[Tayga.3192]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Regarding the Siren elite spec, the thing that bothers me is the F skills being the sameish.I had to consider shatter traits. If you have better ideas, I would gladly change them.

Also plox remove clones :/Maybe they can remove f1-f4 and bake them into the transformation. So they can inherit the traits.Clone and phantasm generation could give allure in that case.

[Zoser.7245]

Nice job, seems a specs based on soft and medium CC. I'm now imagining a new specialization too. One of the things we are tied is the illusions. We have already had discussions in the past about how we could look for something alternative. I'm trying to visualize a plausible way from a programming point of view. It is something we have always wanted and I think I have some ideaa of how it could be without the previous code being useless but recognized, in a way that the effects on illusions act on the new entities and that everything works perfectly. They would even affect all illusion abilities, including weapons, utilities, traits... Without really representing an impossible compromise at the level of work, time and programming.

But honestly I do not know if I want to do it, add programming examples and then watch that it is useless or nobody reads it. In the past I remember when we interacted with Robert Gee and the players were officially consulted for ideas for new specializations. It was a very rewarding experience at the time. I wonder if they are reading the ideas now and if they want to repeat something similar now that they are still on time and working only with concepts.

Devs are you reading us?

[Zoser.7245]

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah, kitten - nice job! xD Funny I'm in process of writing up another take on control oriented spec with Hammer, but I love the ideas you have especially for taunts.

I can imagine the long newspaper you are going to write. Better prepare the popcorn. But be careful that the hammer is dangerous.... And note that in PvP / WvW the hard CC skills do almost no damage now. So your weapons and specialization may end up only being useful occasionally and unseful almost everywhere. It's time to squeeze your brain. :p XD

[Lily.1935]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10315/siren-elite-spec-concept#latest

Ho boy, its been 3 years since I made a post about the Siren. Of course my post has not aged well since the mesmer mechancs have changed enough to break the identity of my original spec. Interesting to see a different take on the Sound sense spec.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Lily.1935" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10315/siren-elite-spec-concept#latest

Ho boy, its been 3 years since I made a post about the Siren. Of course my post has not aged well since the mesmer mechancs have changed enough to break the identity of my original spec. Interesting to see a different take on the Sound sense spec.

Your take on being strictly offensive is very good lore-wise, but I am more of a pvp player so I was thinking about "wait, mesmer doesn't have any swiftness!".

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Regarding the Siren elite spec, the thing that bothers me is the F skills being the sameish.I had to consider shatter traits. If you have better ideas, I would gladly change them.

Also plox remove clones :/Maybe they can remove f1-f4 and bake them into the transformation. So they can inherit the traits.Clone and phantasm generation could give allure in that case.

Clones could automatically "shatter" themselves. And do different effect depending on some condition.If under 50% hp generate resource, if above deal dmg or give might.Or do different things depending on GM trait in the skill tree.

for example, dodge with DE, spawn a clone that will run and shatter itself on the first target. do some low dmg and apply effect depending on GM/other factors.if phantasm becomes clone it insta run to shatter itself in the same fashion

[Tayga.3192]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

Clones could automatically "shatter" themselves. And do different effect depending on some condition.If under 50% hp generate resource, if above deal dmg or give might.Or do different things depending on GM trait in the skill tree.

for example, dodge with DE, spawn a clone that will run and shatter itself on the first target. do some low dmg and apply effect depending on GM/other factors.if phantasm becomes clone it insta run to shatter itself in the same fashion

I definitely get where you are coming from.

This could be applied to Mirage actually. It's a way to make IH baseline, newly created clones apply ambush and die.

However, I feel like the shatter mechanic fits siren because that way you aren't forced to take shouts.

Still, it's pretty interesting. I might start designing stuff again :p

[Lily.1935]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10315/siren-elite-spec-concept#latest

Ho boy, its been 3 years since I made a post about the Siren. Of course my post has not aged well since the mesmer mechancs have changed enough to break the identity of my original spec. Interesting to see a different take on the Sound sense spec.

Your take on being strictly offensive is very good lore-wise, but I am more of a pvp player so I was thinking about "wait, mesmer doesn't have any swiftness!".

Yeah. Mine didn't age well. I wouldn't suggest this version today. Although I would keep much of the offensive design.

[Tayga.3192]

@Lily.1935 said:I would keep much of the offensive design.Would be nice to see you revamp and post your design :)

@"Zoser.7245" said:Nice job, seems a specs based on soft and medium CC.

For some reason I didn't see your post so I'm answering it a bit late, sorry :)Yes, it's based on soft cc, taunt and pulls.

I'm now imagining a new specialization too. One of the things we are tied is the illusions. We have already had discussions in the past about how we could look for something alternative.

I like illusions, but I understand that many people don't and I respect that. In a way, seeing a non-illusion mesmer would be interesting (and it will probably be less frustrating to play :P)

I'm trying to visualize a plausible way from a programming point of view. It is something we have always wanted and I think I have some idea of how it could be without the previous code being useless but recognized, in a way that the effects on illusions act on the new entities and that everything works perfectly. They would even affect all illusion abilities, including weapons, utilities, traits... Without really representing an impossible compromise at the level of work, time and programming. But honestly I do not know if I want to do it, add programming examples and then watch that it is useless or nobody reads it.

I also agree that giving programming examples would be too much.I tried to keep everything easy to implement but without knowing how the engine works it's a bit of a guessing game.

In the past I remember when we interacted with Robert Gee and the players were officially consulted for ideas for new specializations. It was a very rewarding experience at the time. I wonder if they are reading the ideas now and if they want to repeat something similar now that they are still on time and working only with concepts.I know that the concept of "Mesmer with illusions" is from a post in original Guild Wars forums.I know that Deadeye's main theme (sniper thief) is from GW2 forums.I know Soulbeast tradeoff was asked by the community in GW2 forums.So my guess is they still read these "concept"s and suggestions. If I knew for sure that they wouldn't read my post, I wouldn't post this.

Devs are you reading us?Hopefully yes xD

[Lily.1935]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Lily.1935 said:I would keep much of the offensive design.Would be nice to see you revamp and post your design :)

@"Zoser.7245" said:Nice job, seems a specs based on soft and medium CC.

For some reason I didn't see your post so I'm answering it a bit late, sorry :)Yes, it's based on soft cc, taunt and pulls.

I'm now imagining a new specialization too. One of the things we are tied is the illusions. We have already had discussions in the past about how we could look for something alternative.

I like illusions, but I understand that many people don't and I respect that. In a way, seeing a non-illusion mesmer would be interesting (and it will probably be less frustrating to play :P)

I'm trying to visualize a plausible way from a programming point of view. It is something we have always wanted and I think I have some idea of how it could be without the previous code being useless but recognized, in a way that the effects on illusions act on the new entities and that everything works perfectly. They would even affect all illusion abilities, including weapons, utilities, traits... Without really representing an impossible compromise at the level of work, time and programming. But honestly I do not know if I want to do it, add programming examples and then watch that it is useless or nobody reads it.

I also agree that giving programming examples would be too much.I tried to keep everything easy to implement but without knowing how the engine works it's a bit of a guessing game.

In the past I remember when we interacted with Robert Gee and the players were officially consulted for ideas for new specializations. It was a very rewarding experience at the time. I wonder if they are reading the ideas now and if they want to repeat something similar now that they are still on time and working only with concepts.I know that the concept of "Mesmer with illusions" is from a post in original Guild Wars forums.I know that Deadeye's main theme (sniper thief) is from GW2 forums.I know Soulbeast tradeoff was asked by the community in GW2 forums.So my guess is they still read these "concept"s and suggestions. If I knew for sure that they wouldn't read my post, I wouldn't post this.

Devs are you reading us?Hopefully yes xD

I can certainly try to. But I've been very far away from Mesmer for quite a while, so it might be a bit more difficult.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

if i remember right from an old leak post about 3. expansion the new mesmer spec will indeed be called siren but with shortbow not warhorn. dunno anything else about that. and was nothing proven ofc just a leak, even tho the leak about the other expansions always were kinda accurate. i will not judge anything before seeing it ingame but shortbow doesnt make me hyped that much right now (the only thing i like about it is, that it will be finally 5 new skills and not only an offhand or mainhand). i rly hoped for a dagger dagger (hammer would be funny too) power shatter based spec going well with gs. but what ever it will be pls no other condi or bunker focused garbage you need to bend out of shape to play it as up power shatter and will get ruined with every nerf to any op meta condi/ bunker build...

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Jazz.4639" said:if i remember right from an old leak post about 3. expansion the new mesmer spec will indeed be called siren but with shortbow not warhorn. dunno anything else about that. and was nothing proven ofc just a leak, even tho the leak about the other expansions always were kinda accurate. i will not judge anything before seeing it ingame but shortbow doesnt make me hyped that much right now (the only thing i like about it is, that it will be finally 5 new skills and not only an offhand or mainhand). i rly hoped for a dagger dagger (hammer would be funny too) power shatter based spec going well with gs. but what ever it will be pls no other condi or bunker focused garbage you need to bend out of shape to play it as up power shatter and will get ruined with every nerf to any op meta condi/ bunker build...

knowing how GS is this odd ranged/melee weapon I wouldnt be suprised if shortbow was made as mainly melee weapon somehow xd.

• leg shortbow shooting horses as legendary Pog.Hope its power spec, but i wont buy xpac untill they fix core/other elites

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Jazz.4639" said:if i remember right from an old leak post about 3. expansion the new mesmer spec will indeed be called siren but with shortbow not warhorn. dunno anything else about that. and was nothing proven ofc just a leak, even tho the leak about the other expansions always were kinda accurate. i will not judge anything before seeing it ingame but shortbow doesnt make me hyped that much right now (the only thing i like about it is, that it will be finally 5 new skills and not only an offhand or mainhand). i rly hoped for a dagger dagger (hammer would be funny too) power shatter based spec going well with gs. but what ever it will be pls no other condi or bunker focused garbage you need to bend out of shape to play it as up power shatter and will get ruined with every nerf to any op meta condi/ bunker build...

I've looked for that leak and found it on reddit. It seems fake, says the new expansion takes us to a land close to blazeridge mountains and it is inspired by India and tibet.Now, we know that it will be Cantha so it doesn't add up.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:if i remember right from an old leak post about 3. expansion the new mesmer spec will indeed be called siren but with shortbow not warhorn. dunno anything else about that. and was nothing proven ofc just a leak, even tho the leak about the other expansions always were kinda accurate. i will not judge anything before seeing it ingame but shortbow doesnt make me hyped that much right now (the only thing i like about it is, that it will be finally 5 new skills and not only an offhand or mainhand). i rly hoped for a dagger dagger (hammer would be funny too) power shatter based spec going well with gs. but what ever it will be pls no other condi or bunker focused garbage you need to bend out of shape to play it as up power shatter and will get ruined with every nerf to any op meta condi/ bunker build...

knowing how GS is this odd ranged/melee weapon I wouldnt be suprised if shortbow was made as mainly melee weapon somehow xd.

• leg shortbow shooting horses as legendary Pog.Hope its power spec, but i wont buy xpac untill they fix core/other elites

50 range to not be op!

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:if i remember right from an old leak post about 3. expansion the new mesmer spec will indeed be called siren but with shortbow not warhorn. dunno anything else about that. and was nothing proven ofc just a leak, even tho the leak about the other expansions always were kinda accurate. i will not judge anything before seeing it ingame but shortbow doesnt make me hyped that much right now (the only thing i like about it is, that it will be finally 5 new skills and not only an offhand or mainhand). i rly hoped for a dagger dagger (hammer would be funny too) power shatter based spec going well with gs. but what ever it will be pls no other condi or bunker focused garbage you need to bend out of shape to play it as up power shatter and will get ruined with every nerf to any op meta condi/ bunker build...

I've looked for that leak and found it on reddit. It seems fake, says the new expansion takes us to a land close to blazeridge mountains and it is inspired by India and tibet.Now, we know that it will be Cantha so it doesn't add up.

ok i didnt remember anything else from it, seems no siren shortbow then…then heavily voting for 5 new buttons (either a 2 hand weapon like hammer or the thing i would love most is dagger dagger like spellbreaker got in pof)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!only a new offhand weapon would be totally underwhelming.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Jazz.4639" said:ok i didnt remember anything else from it, seems no siren shortbow then…then heavily voting for 5 new buttons (either a 2 hand weapon like hammer or the thing i would love most is dagger dagger like spellbreaker got in pof)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!only a new offhand weapon would be totally underwhelming.

My concept actually adds 8 skills (F5, 5 skills when you are transformed, 2 weapon skills) instead of 2, considering you have F5.

And don't worry, you can make a pretty good power build if my concept passes through (I bet it would be more fun than playing clunky chrono or one dodge mirage). This would probably play as a more "immobilize into burst" type instead of burst from stealth, which is way more healthy for the game in general.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:ok i didnt remember anything else from it, seems no siren shortbow then…then heavily voting for 5 new buttons (either a 2 hand weapon like hammer or the thing i would love most is dagger dagger like spellbreaker got in pof)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!only a new offhand weapon would be totally underwhelming.

My concept actually adds 8 skills (F5, 5 skills when you are transformed, 2 weapon skills) instead of 2, considering you have F5.

And don't worry, you can make a pretty good power build if my concept passes through (I bet it would be more fun than playing clunky chrono or one dodge mirage).

ah sry i wrote too imprecise, all i said wasnt rly directed to your idea. it sounds interesting all together (can i get that with dagger dagger instead warhorn pls? grin). i just think it is time mesmer gets 5 new weaponskills, means a new 2 hand weapon or a double weaponset for main and offhand. i ofc would still also take a new f5 and transformation skills on top of that hehe

[viquing.8254]

As long as mesmer get a spec with NO ILLUSIONS, I will be happy. Mean if only we can be balanced with no "he confuse noob with illusions" in mind...

[Tayga.3192]

@"Jazz.4639" said:ah sry i wrote too imprecise, all i said wasnt rly directed to your idea. it sounds interesting all together (can i get that with dagger dagger instead warhorn pls? grin). i just think it is time mesmer gets 5 new weaponskills, means a new 2 hand weapon or a double weaponset for main and offhand. i ofc would still also take a new f5 and transformation skills on top of that hehe

Oh I totally get what you mean, especially now that mesmer is getting short end of the stick with its especs I also want a functional and more offensive elite spec now.

@"viquing.8254" said:As long as mesmer get a spec with NO ILLUSIONS, I will be happy. Mean if only we can be balanced with no "he confuse noob with illusions" in mind...

Illusions are too baked into the class, but this is a very interesting idea. If I had the guts, I would design my concept without clones but I am a coward :P

[Yasai.3549]

SLAANESHI BROTHERS UNITE

But in seriousness : I think the Shroud concept is cool, if only dual professions are introducedOn that note I would imagine that it could be a future for Elite Specs for two Professions to merge in discipline as one new Elite spec.

The balance would be yu can only pick one traitline from each profession and then pick the Elite spec itself.So taking Siren as an example :

Inspiration - Soul Reaping - Siren

[Tayga.3192]

Edit: I changed some stuff so it has more synergy with non-bunker builds now.