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Jormag's Story with New Expac Reveal


Poormany.4507

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You misunderstood Randulf, who is confused about Jormag's location, not whether or not its still asleep. In Season 3 Episode 3, it's said that Jormag has made its home in a tundra just beyond Bitterfrost Frontier (which is why the zone was given such a name, and why The Bitter Cold area is so darn cold - it's so darn close to Jormag who's freezing the area so thoroughly).@Randulf.7614 said:That is not what I was saying. Jormag should be asleep much further south as per S3 alluding to where it fell into the ice. Unless it moved after ep3 of S3, so why would Bangar be going to North to it?

Aah yeah sorry my bad. Oop :lol:

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My guess is that Jormag's story will be revealed at the end of Icebrood Saga, and Bangar is going to pay the price. Bangar will realize that he screwed up big time in getting tricked into awakening Jormag under the pretense of "harnessing" his power. He gets killed off.

Jormag's plan may involve, I would think the DSD, going into the Cantha.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Interestingly enough, Bangar does mention about extending his charr empire 'all the way to Cantha'. Maybe all the players in this mess aren't getting killed at the end of the day, and the story doesn't quite the spin the way we expect it to.

I noticed that too. I rarely read too much into throwaway lines like this, but it caught my attention

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@Randulf.7614 said:I am curious. After the vision, Rytlock tells us Bangar is close to Jormag but has gone North. I thought Jormag fell to sleep near Bitterfrost as per the S3 dialogue?

Yeah I know what piece of dialogue your speaking of.

Rytlock Brimstone: Bangar's forces have trekked pretty far north. He's almost made it to Jormag, and when that happens—well, no one knows.

Could just be the wording, advising that he army had gone north in a past tense and possibly in comparison to their current location at the EOTN.

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I think Jormag dies before we get to Cantha. The question is who kills them and why. In Still Waters, Wolf Spirit tells Braham that; "You cracked the Fang of the Serpent. Fate now decrees you will either slay Jormag or fall to Jormag." I think it is likely that Braham deals the final blow with Eir's bow. We will just pretend that everyone is acting sufficiently worried about the bow's potency, we can't have people learn from past encounters with potent anti-dragon weapons. If Eir's bow isn't used, then we will need to discover some other potent weapon. As to why we kill Jormag; his plan may be to end the Elder dragon cycle by freezing all Tyria. In their mind Tyria would be "saved" from the cycle of death by preserving everything in ice.

I'm even more confident that we are going to learn more about the Elder dragon cycle and the All and then use that knowledge to change how the All functions. We won't be plugging Aurene's children or other entities into the cosmic mechanism because it is too easy for the mechanism to drive its conscious parts insane. We will have to figure out how to fundamentally reconfigure the cosmic machine. My wild guess for Cantha....

The Tengu have been protecting a clan of dragons that could become Elder dragons. This clan has developed techniques that hide them from the Elder dragons and allow them to cycle magic without succumbing to pathological hunger or All corruption. They share this knowledge with other races and each race develops techniques for cycling magic. Cities could become part of the cosmic mechanism. I would love to see Aurene shed her Elder Dragon status, channeling her magic into a newly configured All, and then joining a dragon people. I like this approach because it isn't the typical frustrated or vicarious resolution of the the power fantasy the studio usually delivers. We can't pursue the power fantasy to the point where the PC becomes an Elder dragon or god so someone else gets the power. My approach would distribute the power among many.

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The issue with Jormag's death this season is where the replacement comes in. Unless Kuunavang swoops in and magic-steals when Braham or someone kills Jormag, how will the world avoid going "blargh" as Taimi so eloquently put it in S3/PoF?

I'm doubtful of any sort of non-living replacement setup. Cities, being just basic brick and mortar, makes no sense as becoming replacement to Elder Dragons - and even if the idea is "spreading to those living in cities", then that just creates the issue of elitism among equals (those who live in cities become much greater than those not). Also not really sure how such would happen - or why Tengu harboring "high dragons" would mean they could make objects and/or other people fulfill the roles that high dragons could.

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If an Elder dragon's death is important, why isn't anyone talking about the full risk Bangar poses? Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Bangar is as dangerous as Balthazar and we only talk about Ryland's fate and the effect of who gets credit for killing Drakkar. Obviously, we should also be frantic about replacements. I think the absence of obvious questions and dialog is telling. A studio that only pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points.

Since Aurene's ascension, Taimi's claimed that everything she knew about Elder dragons may be wrong. Aurene has new abilities the make her more resilient to the demands of the All. Aurene tells us that she is discovering deeper knowledge of the All. She knows more about the All than Tiami. Them working together would reveal even more about the All. The six sphere All configuration plot isn't as strong as it used to be. I just don't see us going on to plug more Elder beings into the All magitech. Being an Elder being looks dangerous. The likeliness of going mad and doing Elder damage is high. Suppose Elder beings are tasked with keeping magic flowing and growing. How easy to loose sight of mortals, of civilizations and make decisions about what is best for themselves or an abstract philosophy for All efficiency. Aurene alone in the machine may be the greatest threat.

The term high dragons works. I think there is a song about their leader. High dragons would practice magic that demonstrated their knowledge of the All. Taimi would tell us that high dragons are natural masters of the Eternal Alchemy. "It would look like all these columns of symbols moving and flowing everywhere. They see it! They see the Eternal Alchemy!" Plugging cities into the All-chemy is the very limit of what I would believe possible. High dragons would be studying ways to run All-chemy without needing and eliminating the potential, for Elder beings. They could have madly effective temple magic. Cities and other places that receive magi-prayer could be given life enough.

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Srsly, is no one tired of repeating the cycle of "i saw i came i conquered"? One Dragon rises, commander comes and takes a look, bomb! Dragon gets killed.

Can we have something different for this time?Maybe Jormag is really trying to be helpful? Maybe the terrible thing Jormag mentioned who lurk beyond the horizon is DSD? Maybe DSD has become super charged after all these years hiding in the background absorbing all the magic, and this terrifies Jormag.

Before We had 2 options to deal with a Dragon Rise.

1) Kill it. find a replacement.2) Somehow drain its magic and put it back to sleep. ( what Bathazar did, with the help of Omadd's Machine )

But with Jormag's help, this is the first time ever that we have a 3rd option.

3) To contain an Elder Drgaon without killing it. If we can weaken DSD enough to the point allowing Jormag to freeze the whole ocean, confining the dragon within?

This can solves a lot of problem.

1) Explains who is the "terrible thing" Jormag mentioned and why Jormag needs us, he can not confront an overpowered DSD alone,

2) If Anet is still actively developing GW2. At some point we have to face DSD, we know Anet has been trying to minimize underwater contents for years, but If we are to face the Sea Dragon, they have to deal with underwater contents, If that's the case. why don't we just ask Jormag for help? to freeze the ocean minimizing the underwater contents.

3) People always want to know the whereabout of DSD, and if we are to go to Cantha. she will be a good reason.

4) Teaming up with an Elder Dragon a villain temporarily also gives room for lot of drama, tension and uncertainty, All of these if handled properly, can achieve a very interesting story, a different kind of story.

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@"Micky.3648" said:Srsly, is no one tired of repeating the cycle of "i saw i came i conquered"? One Dragon rises, commander comes and takes a look, bomb! Dragon gets killed.

Can we have something different for this time?Maybe Jormag is really trying to be helpful? Maybe the terrible thing Jormag mentioned who lurk beyond the horizon is DSD? Maybe DSD has become super charged after all these years hiding in the background absorbing all the magic, and this terrifies Jormag.

Before We had 2 options to deal with a Dragon Rise.

1) Kill it. find a replacement.2) Somehow drain its magic and put it back to sleep. ( what Bathazar did, with the help of Omadd's Machine )

But with Jormag's help, this is the first time ever that we have a 3rd option.

3) To contain an Elder Drgaon without killing it. If we can weaken DSD enough to the point allowing Jormag to freeze the whole ocean, confining the dragon within?

This can solves a lot of problem.

1) Explains who is the "terrible thing" Jormag mentioned and why Jormag needs us, he can not confront an overpowered DSD alone,

2) If Anet is still actively developing GW2. At some point we have to face DSD, we know Anet has been trying to minimize underwater contents for years, but If we are to face the Sea Dragon, they have to deal with underwater contents, If that's the case. why don't we just ask Jormag for help? to freeze the ocean minimizing the underwater contents.

3) People always want to know the whereabout of DSD, and if we are to go to Cantha. she will be a good reason.

4) Teaming up with an Elder Dragon a villain temporarily also gives room for lot of drama, tension and uncertainty, All of these if handled properly, can achieve a very interesting story, a different kind of story.

I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

I mean we don't need a replacement, We just trap the weakened DSD within the ice from Jormag.

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@Micky.3648 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:I want us to go in a different direction as well. Your reason #2 is funny but also true. The way to avoid underwater combat is to freeze the water. However, even if we team up with Jormag and defeat the DSD we still would need Elder dragon replacements. We would still be on a similar narrative treadmill of killing Elder dragons and finding replacement Elder dragons. If we change the requirement for replacements we could still partner with Jormag which could be interesting. I am just convinced that being an Elder part of the All drives Elders mad. Jormag, Primordius, and the DSD may be beyond saving. Jormag is actively "consuming" mortals.

I mean we don't need a replacement, We just trap the weakened DSD within the ice from Jormag.

I think the importance of a replacement is not really to necessarily have another good dragon but to have something else that can regulate the magic flow in Tyria. To backpedal a little, the whole premise we stopped Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik is that even though he was active, killing him would bring catastrophic outcome because he is so integral in a way that he prevent Tyria from blowing up from magical overload by absorbing these magic/energy (through destruction), and release them slowly once back dormant.

Now I'm wondering if you stuff an Elder Dragon with magic til it goes to sleep, then somehow 'seal' it, what's going to happen? Will the magic keep seeping out? what happen if all the magic released? Is it even possible to keep an Elder Dragon sealed/prisoned/frozen when it is hungry? Or alternatively what will happen to Tyria if no magic that it is consumed being released? Will Tyria go boom in any magical imbalance, either excess or deficit, situation? Probably yes(?)

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The speculation on replacement, and the lack of any for Jormag, has me thinking about a few things fro Path of Fire that we really don't seem to have a conclusion. Vlast, seems to be much more knowledgeable of Glint's legacy, and he, on his demise, has left some interesting words that have yet to seem to have passed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice

Vlast: It was created so mortals could do the work of dragons, of our line.Vlast: To combat cataclysmic power and prevent the destruction of all life.

Glint's legacy has certainly not been fully realized, if the intent is for mortals to wield the power of dragons themselves. Even Aurene's own ascension does not fulfill this notion of mortals balancing magic. Aurene isn't on of the mortals, even if she is sympathetic with them, she doesn't currently have mortals doing her work. Instead she is taking the burden of dealing with whatever havoc is going, and restoring the mists, on herself. She asks the commander to keep watch on Bangar, and the charr situation, but that isn't related to draconic powers/responsibilities.

Vlast: I feel trapped in this role...in this "legacy." I yearn for freedom, but I cannot turn away from these responsibilities.

Vlast seems to have had trouble working with Glint's legacy. And very specifically calls out how it works against his own freedom. Vlast's and now Aurene's role in shaping Glint's legacy with respect to having mortals do the work of dragons is unclear. But I have to wonder if Vlast's mention of freedom is simply referring to being beholden to responsibility, or is it a more literal sense of being enslaved as a result of allowing Glint's legacy to come to be. If the dragons acquiesce in relinquishing their power to mortals, so that the mortals can do this work, it would certainly be some form of servitude if not slavery.

Details about these parts of Gling't Legacy seem to not exist, but I have to wonder if Aurene, or Caithe, has learned about them. Are they holding back information from the commander (or Anet holding things far from the players, of course)? Perhaps the dragons can be controlled. And controlling them preempts the need to kill them.

One thing is clear with the first line quoted here from Vlast. Mortals can, and if the plan comes to pass, will wield the power of the dragons. To do the work of the dragons, mortals would clearly need some sort of power equal to the dragons. That leaves Bangar, and Glint's Legacy in an interesting situation. Glint's legacy instructs that mortals will have control over the powers of dragons, and Bangar wants to find a way to take control over Jormag's power. If Bangar succeeds, he will fulfill that step of Glint's legacy. Of course, the next step is for mortals to use that power to prevent cataclysm and protect life. Bangar, wants to use the dragons power to wage war, clearly antithetical to Glint's wishes.

Aurene seems cautious about Bangar and what he can achieve. She knows full well that the commander will kill him, but is cautious about when and how that will happen. Perhaps she is following a possible future of taking Jormags power and considering how it works in Glint's legacy. Looking at exactly when his chain of events should be cut to bring everything in line with her vision. Vision's of the past also shows us a few things about Ryland too. He seems to be scheming something potentially to usurp Bangar, and is more sympathetic to the Vigial/Pact than is letting anyone else know. I have to wonder, if Ryland gains control of Jormag, would he use the power to support Glint's legacy? Is that why he is following Bangar?

I think Jormag may very well become enslaved, and power used on behalf of someone or another. And, if Jormag can be enslaved, and the methods to do it become know, then the remaining two dragons, and the balance of magic, have suddenly become extremely vulnerable.

And what of Aurene, will she eventually loan her power to the commander, or the pact to fulfill Glint's legacy?

Vlast: Some advice: if you grow weary of your caretakers, offer a hiss or a swat of your tail and watch them scatter.Vlast: Do not let them—or yourself—forget what you are.

Glint's vision give far too much faith in the hands of mortals. If mortals are given the ability to do the work, of dragons. They would immediately fail, and use it to destroy the world instead...

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Kralk had visions of mortals and dragons peacefully living and working together. I beleive Glint also makes mention of seeing something similar. I don't think we have to approach the idea of mortals "doing the work of dragons" as meaning that mortals can wield Elder dragons as weapons, enslave them, or be as powerful. It could be similar to the difference between market monopolies and distributed small businesses. Both can do similar economic work but only one is can wield totalitarian control. The Elder dragon problem is analogous to the real world's problem of too-big-to-fail banks.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:If an Elder dragon's death is important, why isn't anyone talking about the full risk Bangar poses? Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Braham's bow doesn't work to rally Charr to his cause unless it is a potent anti-Jormag weapon. Bangar is as dangerous as Balthazar and we only talk about Ryland's fate and the effect of who gets credit for killing Drakkar. Obviously, we should also be frantic about replacements. I think the absence of obvious questions and dialog is telling. A studio that only pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points.

Because Bangar's goal isn't to kill an Elder Dragon, it's to control it. This is why everyone's talking about the issues of Bangar trying to control Jormag, and not the issues of killing Jormag. Even if Braham's bow can potentially kill Jormag (which some folks doubt), because it isn't being used with the intent to kill people aren't worried about it.

Like you said - a studio that pays for the minimum of words isn't spending money on irrelevant plot points. And no one in Tyria have expressed interest in killing Jormag right now. Once someone does, then it'll become a relevant plot point.

I just don't see us going on to plug more Elder beings into the All magitech. Being an Elder being looks dangerous. The likeliness of going mad and doing Elder damage is high. Suppose Elder beings are tasked with keeping magic flowing and growing. How easy to loose sight of mortals, of civilizations and make decisions about what is best for themselves or an abstract philosophy for All efficiency. Aurene alone in the machine may be the greatest threat.

The Elder Dragons are already "plugged" into the All, and the entire point of their replacement, and the balance of The All, is that the position of the Elder Dragons must be held by someone. If a "something" could do the job, then we hit the major issue of "why couldn't we do this before? Why didn't the bloodstones do this? Why couldn't Balthazar do this? Why could only scions of Elder Dragons do this until now?"

The term high dragons works. I think there is a song about their leader. High dragons would practice magic that demonstrated their knowledge of the All. Taimi would tell us that high dragons are natural masters of the Eternal Alchemy. "It would look like all these columns of symbols moving and flowing everywhere. They see it! They see the Eternal Alchemy!" Plugging cities into the All-chemy is the very limit of what I would believe possible. High dragons would be studying ways to run All-chemy without needing and eliminating the potential, for Elder beings. They could have madly effective temple magic. Cities and other places that receive magi-prayer could be given life enough.

I use the term "high dragon" because ArenaNet labels hydras, wyverns, skyscales, and drakes as "lesser dragons" - and lesser dragons cannot ascend to become Elder Dragons or connect to The All. Sadly, all "high dragons" we know of are now currently Elder Dragons - and to be one, the only known quality of them is that they're scions. Meaning, that unless someone had hidden away children of Zhaitan, Jormag, Mordremoth, Primordus, or the DSD, there are no more high dragons out there. (Side note: One theory I had was that Drakkar was Jormag's scion, but unfortunately ANet decided to slaughter the potential of Drakkar, herald of Jormag, who held the same position of power as Glint and the Great Destroyer, for a subplot of adulthood for Braham and made him get one-shotted by an NPC, not even a proper story battle).

Which is our number one issue of how to replace the remaining Elder Dragons.

Even if multiple "high dragons" could spread the burden of the All amongst themselves and not rely on six individuals but many, there's the massive issue of "there are none left" to solve. And if we can get some, then why deviate from the proven plan of six for an unproven plan that is, ultimately, a severely high gamble (as if it doesn't work and we kill an Elder Dragon without a replacement, then the world goes boom).

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Konig

Rational people wouldn't look at Bangar and rule out his actions leading to Jormag's death. He is leading an army to confront Jormag. Braham's bow need only be potent and everyone must assume some level of potency. Bangar's threat to the All would be foremost on the Commander's mind. We are always looking out for Tyria. You're approach demands we assume a top down homogeneity of thought among actors. Everyone would only ever talk about what is right under their noses. Experienced Elder dragon fighting armies aren't saying a word about what is right under their noses. The studio is very sparse with words and what I am seeing may be caused by their fugal nature. I doubt it though. They have spent money on words eroding the Six sphere configuration.

Other attempts to provide replacements failed because people didn't understand the All well enough. It doesn't have to be any more complex than that. Going from 'someone' to 'something' is a stretch, but it doesn't break anything or force retcons, just an increase in knowledge. It would be analogous to going from Newtonian gravity to General Relativity.

To provide 'high dragons', the studio would have to explain how the dragons first gained control of the All. Elder Dragons couldn't be eternal beings. The studio would have to provide a history for Tyria that includes a deeper understanding of All-chemy or All cosmology. Which isn't the worst thing that could happen.

How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs, but you can't deny that there evidence that it is innately risky for Elder dragons because of how it focuses magic through a small number of magi-minds. Elder dragon pain becomes everyone's pain.

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Truth be told, I'm not sure how much of the main cast can be categorized as "rational people".

I also would disagree myself, and I like to believe I'm a rational person, that Bangar's actions will likely lead to Jormag's death. I feel that if they would, it would be because the Commander and co. were the cause of said actions. So it would be more accurate to say "Dragon's Watch's reaction to Bangar's action will likely lead to Jormag's death". Of course, since they're highly aware of what will happen should they kill Jormag, it's also clear to say that "Dragon's Watch will ensure their actions don't lead to Jormag's death without reliable reasoning that it won't end in world destruction".

After all, the key part in all of this, is that Bangar has zero intention of killing Jormag. And is so far gone, as that worst case scenario is a legion of charr becoming Icebrood and Jormag rising again, not Jormag's death.

Plus, as shown with Season 3 and Braham, it would appear that everyone and their mother's is in complete and utter convinced belief that an Elder Dragon in protective hibernation is invulnerable. This refers to both Kralkatorrik's cacoon state in Dragonfall, but also Jormag's beneath-the-ice state as well. Which means the Commander and co. are under the adement impression that Jormag cannot be killed at the moment, and must first be made to rise before they can be killed. So the possibility of Jormag's death, on top of the leading cause of it potentially happening being our team, is viewed as something that can only happen if and only if Jormag rises again.

How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs

You just answered yourself there.

Also, the Elder Dragons do not configure The All. This needs to be stressed - the Elder Dragons are pieces of the All, not controllers of the All. The All will always have six spheres, as that is the nature of The All.

Just as there can never be more or fewer than Six of the Six Gods, there can never be more or fewer of the six spheres of The All. If an Elder Dragon dies, the sphere doesn't disappear, doesn't dissipate, or anything else - it just goes inert as shown to us in Flashpoint's Elder Druid Protection story cinematic.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Truth be told, I'm not sure how much of the main cast can be categorized as "rational people".

I also would disagree myself, and I like to believe I'm a rational person, that Bangar's actions will likely lead to Jormag's death. I feel that if they would, it would be because the Commander and co. were the cause of said actions. So it would be more accurate to say "Dragon's Watch's reaction to Bangar's action will likely lead to Jormag's death". Of course, since they're highly aware of what will happen should they kill Jormag, it's also clear to say that "Dragon's Watch will ensure their actions don't lead to Jormag's death without reliable reasoning that it won't end in world destruction".

After all, the key part in all of this, is that Bangar has zero intention of killing Jormag. And is so far gone, as that worst case scenario is a legion of charr becoming Icebrood and Jormag rising again, not Jormag's death.

Plus, as shown with Season 3 and Braham, it would appear that everyone and their mother's is in complete and utter convinced belief that an Elder Dragon in protective hibernation is invulnerable. This refers to both Kralkatorrik's cacoon state in Dragonfall, but also Jormag's beneath-the-ice state as well. Which means the Commander and co. are under the adement impression that Jormag cannot be killed at the moment, and must first be made to rise before they can be killed. So the possibility of Jormag's death, on top of the leading cause of it potentially happening being our team, is viewed as something that can only happen if and only if Jormag rises again.

How is the six sphere configuration a proven plan? Yes, it runs

You just answered yourself there.

Also, the Elder Dragons do not configure The All. This needs to be stressed - the Elder Dragons are pieces of the All, not controllers of the All. The All will always have six spheres, as that is the nature of The All.

Just as there can never be more or fewer than Six of the Six Gods, there can never be more or fewer of the six spheres of The All. If an Elder Dragon dies, the sphere doesn't disappear, doesn't dissipate, or anything else - it just goes inert as shown to us in Flashpoint's Elder Druid Protection story cinematic.

I think we have reached a point where we are repeating ourselves, each unable to agree on the importance of the others evidence. I think you are exaggerating how much we understand the All and that most signs are pointing to a revelation and a change of thinking about the All.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:I think we have reached a point where we are repeating ourselves, each unable to agree on the importance of the others evidence. I think you are exaggerating how much we understand the All and that most signs are pointing to a revelation and a change of thinking about the All.

There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's definitely a lot we don't know, but there's still plenty we do know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's definitely a
lot
we don't know, but there's still plenty we
do
know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

This is a strong possibility. We learn that the right dragon can run the All alone, the other Elder dragons are coming for Aurene, Jormag's offer to help is sincere or a ploy or both. We could get a more complex version of Nightfall's plot. Which is ok. Just ok. It is reliable, inexpensive, and vicariously satisfying. I admit to being a snob but I want a more complex plot. I think we are going to get one. The only new thing we would need to learn about the All is that non-dragons can be plugged into one of the six spheres. The range of compatible beings could be broad. The broader the range, the easier it is to democratize the payout of the Tyrian power fantasy.

Cantha presents some real potential. There is a stark difference between Western and Eastern dragon traditions. We have been following the Western dragon power fantasy of Saint George; the hero gains power to slay the dragon and gets power from killing the dragon. The studio will have to appropriate Eastern culture and hopefully decide to pay respects to the Eastern dragon tradition.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's definitely a
lot
we don't know, but there's still plenty we
do
know. I do agree that we're bound to get a revelation about The All and the nature of the Elder Dragons, it just feels like if they go in the route of "we do not need at least four with one per sphere" then our establishment of lore has diminished since what we do know points to exactly that.

And I, for one, am a fan of maintaining lore, not constantly rewriting it with "revelations" and "plot twists".I heavily suspect Aurene being the "prismatic" dragon, who can hold the various energies within her, without them conflicting, or causing "torment" like Kralkatorik had, is the escape route to needing 4-6 separate beings each holding one of the six aspects.

Unless Kralk's mention of her being "the first of her kind" means she has her own children at some point with similar powers.

Well, from Scion & Champion:

Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

Glint, in All or Nothing, pretty much outright tells us that too much magic will be too much for even Aurene to handle. The reason she can handle the magic she has without issue is because of her bond with mortals.

One could theorize that she would just need to spread her bonding to handle replacing more Elder Dragons (by the end of Season 4, she only really has a bond with Caithe and the Commander, and doesn't really show signs of bonds with other members of Dragon's Watch or the Crystal Bloom just yet). However, if we go back to the origin of the whole "can't kill another Elder Dragon bits:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection#Dialogue

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward#In_Kesho

Pact Commander: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

Taimi explicitly calls it "the Elder Dragon imbalance", and denotes that even an Elder Dragon becoming so much more powerful than the others can worsen said imbalance, while Sadizi suggests (just as Taimi's simulation does), that multiple entities are needed.

This shows that we are dealing with two types of balances/imbalances: balance of magic, and balance of The All/Elder Dragons.

Taimi also says during War Eternal:

Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_End#At_the_Auditorium_2

Which indicates that even if Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik while Kralkatorrik was in the Mists, thus solving the Elder Dragon balance, the magical balance would get proverbially screwed.

This would imply that even if Aurene can handle all the magic in the world - thus solving magical balance - through bonds with mortals... that doesn't solve the Elder Dragon balance with The All.

Whether intentional or not, ArenaNet does seem to have established that there are two types of balances needed to watch out for, and the more critical one (when Elder Dragons aren't in the Mists) is the All/Elder Dragon imbalance of "there must be 4 or more".

But knowing ANet, that will all get tossed aside, and we'll go with the super boring and overly predictable (literally a player theory since S3 began if not older) of having One True Elder Prismatic Dragon.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:snipThe problem with all of this is that everyone speaking at those times did so under the assumption that Aurene would be like the other Elder Dragons, except nice. But, as Kralkatorik pointed out, she isn't. She is fundamentally different due to her ability to have multiple magics in her, and not having them conflict. Glint's warning in "Scion and Champion" is likely a reference to Kralkatorik's torment, which we already know Aurene is unlikely to suffer from due to the above mentioned non-conflict of magic in her.

As for Taimi's dialog in "Druid Protection" and "A Small Victory", and Sadizi's dialog in "The Way Forward", they are all talking about the same ting, the Elder Dragon's ability to cycle magic/maintain the All. The "Elder Dragon imbalance" is the magic cycle imbalance, since its the Elder Dragons who cycle the magic/All. Its the same thing, not two separate problems. But, again, all of their comments are based on the idea of Elder Dragons as they know them, which is the limited, magic conflicting, dragons we have. And Aurene isn't that.

For some more specific points,.

  • Taimi's comments about Kralkatorik becoming more powerful, and upsetting the balance, can be compared to a large drilling machine that uses multiple drills to dig through rock. All the drills need to be at the same speed for the machine to run smoothly. Having one drill move much faster then the others creates an imbalance in the machines speed. That however doesn't mean you NEED four drills in the first place. Theoretically, you could make one giant super drill and achieve the same effect. Or, in this case, have one super dragon that does it all. All her comments here indicate is that, in the situation where there are multiple dragons running everything, having one become too powerful is bad. Not that you necessarily need several of them.
  • Her comment about Kralkatorik dying in the Mists only indicates that, for whatever reason, Aurene seemingly wouldn't be able to absorb his magic in the Mists if he is killed there, and thus he has to die in the mortal realm for Aurene to be able to take that magic. If Aurene was able to replace Kralkatorik in the Mists, his magic wouldn't be "gone" as Taimi mentions, it would be in Aurene. So her comment only makes sense in the context of "Aurene can't replace him if he is killed in the Mists"

Having Aurene become the "one dragon to rule them all" wouldn't be tossing aside any past lore. All of that past lore would still be 100% valid for the context and situation it was originally made in. We are just no longer in that situation.

And, unless the Sylvari start pulling out some big magic cords to start funneling power into the Pale Tree, or something, Anet has made zero effort to even suggest any other sort of entity that could help Aurene maintain the cycle. Let alone like 3 others. And I don't see them pulling that out with Jormag, or Bubbles, or Primordus. The only other enttiy besides the Pale Tree I could see them shoveling this onto is Kuunavang, but that still leaves us with, at most, 3 entities.

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