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The season where duo que's were forbidden didn't have these ridiculous win/loss rates. It's literally the most common sense thing in the world. Don't put premades against PuGs. It's a waste of time for both teams from a competitiveness standpoint and corrupts ANY system you have to measure individual skill.

If you are going to allow premade duo ques, then the leaderboard should show the record as a team. If you show how much these players ranked at the top play solo versus as a team, you will see their quasi manipulation of the leaderboard.

Oh...and save me the part about "wanting to play with your friend". First, there are tournaments where you can play premades. Second, isn't it funny how these guys ONLY play with certain "friends".

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@JTGuevara.9018 I personally would give higher consideration to long term win rates over most of the other stuff. If you have 54% win rate, in mostly random, that is pretty good. This is around P1. Personally, I think the system works on the higher end much better than on the lower end. So for people in P2 and above, the system works well, assuming no one is trying to game it. P1-G3 system still holds but not as effectively. Below that it is a shit show.

I can see if someone had an unlucky streak they could end in gold and get stuck their with horrible match making.

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@"JTGuevara.9018" said:So, I see people on the leaderboard with win/loss records close to mine(111-101) or worse. A few people even have more losses than wins! I'm sorry, but that is just NONSENSICAL. It's too funny!

I don't care what people tell me, they can deny it all they want. Matchmaking is a scam.

Teeeeechnically nobody cheated.A lot of the times they metagame to get their near-perfect winrates. Metagaming is practically match manipulation, but not as blatantly obvious as buying titles for example. It can be equally if not more frustrating though.

When the two best players queue together and pick a time to queue where there's the least competition possible, that's metagaming. When a DuoQ with the game loaded to an SSD constantly class swaps to avoid any counterplay, that's metagaming. When friends agree only to queue with eachother, and never queue against eachother, that's metagaming.

I think you get the point. It's going outside PvP/Gw2 to get an advantage within. It's terrible for any sense of competition, because the purpose of competition is supposed to be to compete, and serve as some measure of skill level, but that's really inaccurate when people have out of game advantages within. If you want to hear the secret on how to get rid of most of, if not all of it:

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Teams/Duos should stay, but they should be a separate ladder to SoloQs so both Team and Individual progression both get emphasized in their own way.It's also two ways to play the same thing, which never hurts.

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1v1 means the top 20 going to stay top 20. Anytime you let the top 20 group together to be 100% of a team (1v1 they 100%), they going to win and not play against each other.

What you need is 8v8 and cap 2 people playing together, so forced 6 randoms. That means they 25% of the team, and its possible to beat them if the 75% is worse than your team % of good players.

Thats why they do it in 5v5, but 40% is still pretty dang high. Hopefully they bring 8v8 15v15 or something higher than 5v5, if I remember gw1 factions it was large amount of players per team, around 24 or so. Just have to remember to cap amount of people that can form the team to small amount like 2 per party can que up.

If matchmaking works properly, those 2 legendarys vs 8 platinums will turn into 2 legendaries 2 golds (maybe 2 silvers instead of gold, has to look at rating as well), 4 platinums. If matchmaking is working as its suppose to.

GW1 tournament play is team of 8. GW2 started out in 8v8, hotjoins was first thing out in pvp, it was 8v8.

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@"SPESHAL.9106" said:The season where duo que's were forbidden didn't have these ridiculous win/loss rates. It's literally the most common sense thing in the world. Don't put premades against PuGs. It's a waste of time for both teams from a competitiveness standpoint and corrupts ANY system you have to measure individual skill.

If you are going to allow premade duo ques, then the leaderboard should show the record as a team. If you show how much these players ranked at the top play solo versus as a team, you will see their quasi manipulation of the leaderboard.

Oh...and save me the part about "wanting to play with your friend". First, there are tournaments where you can play premades. Second, isn't it funny how these guys ONLY play with certain "friends".

Are good players forced to carry relatively bad players?

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:The season where duo que's were forbidden didn't have these ridiculous win/loss rates. It's literally the most common sense thing in the world. Don't put premades against PuGs. It's a waste of time for both teams from a competitiveness standpoint and corrupts ANY system you have to measure individual skill.

If you are going to allow premade duo ques, then the leaderboard should show the record as a team. If you show how much these players ranked at the top play solo versus as a team, you will see their quasi manipulation of the leaderboard.

Oh...and save me the part about "wanting to play with your friend". First, there are tournaments where you can play premades. Second, isn't it funny how these guys ONLY play with certain "friends".

Are good players forced to carry relatively bad players?

I also don't think the duo vs solo is the big deal here, everyone is free to duo with a friend themself. The bigger issue is that the balance atm sucks, is too forgiving facetanky and some duo comps are just way superior and ofc you can abuse broken synergies way better with a premade. But again, everyone is free to do the same. Is it boring and unfun, in particular for really skilled ppl? Probably. I do the same so i cannot throw a stone at anyone. But where i start to laugh is when ppl think it has much to do with skill when you are a high ranked duo in an environment with a lot of ppl qing solo and with a lot of ppl not willing to get carried by the most braindead stuff existing and just play what they like. You literally can easy be in top25+ legend div when abusing all stuff that is possible atm when you are only semi decent. Any prove about being pro or the best and better than all others is clearly not included in the 2v2 or conquest lb.

Also arguing that buildcrafting the most braindead builds and comps and counter building before matchstart is some sort of skill is kind of funny too (i mean there would be some skill included, in other games it can include that but not rly in GW2), considering how very easy it is to see what is noobcarry and broken in GW2 and everyone still not able to see themself can just check a stream or metabattle and get there in 3 seconds. Also when you look at streams you see most ppl do not even need any flexible counterbuilding before matchstart, you will see them perma on their usual Fb(/ Ele) + Rev/ (Necro) comp.

Means in a situation all player without exception would choose to maximum abuse every kitten (duo premade with most braindead comp) there would be a little bit of skill prove included but that is not reality. Reality is, that the few tryhards doing the effort to abuse everything available and don't care for how easy and low skill requirement their builds and comps are, are just additionally carried by the ppl not willing or not able to play with a friend and / or not willing or able to abuse everything abusable and be bored to death. Aside from farming the average bot lvl player ofc, but for that you only need to be slighly above average anyway.

And even if we would have this situation of everyone being equally carried, the current meta is so mistake friendly, facetank noobcarry and aoe/ lock down cc spammy that the proven skill lvl would still be pretty low. Again i am not blaming anyone doing it, i am doing it myself (not for the meaningless title but because i hate to lose to worse players only because they are more carried by braindead stuff than i am, for me winning by build is more fun then losing on skillful and not boring builds, simple as it is) but when ppl develop some wannabe good/ pro ego over that (not to mention while playing a casual game like GW2 with barely any competition left), then it is cringe lvl 1000. I at least know when i am carried and when something doesn't rly say that much about how skilled i rly am. But self-reflection is not everyones cup of tea, in particular in GW2.

For a less boring, less frustration and higher skilled ingame experience we need a state of balance where bad player die fast (and that counts for conquest just as for 2v2) but where no good player dies fast because of some low effort, low risk, low cds without skill-waste punishment, low counter braindead spammable powercreep dmg exist. Before patch we had both: powercreeped sustain and powercreeped dmg. Double noobcarry so to say on one side but less forgiving for mistakes on the other side (and this less mistake friendly and faster paced gameplay at least reduced the noobcarry lvl a little bit). Problematic in particular it was, that the classes with powercreeped sustain where also the ones with the most braindead spammable powercreeped dmg (pre pre nerf Holo for example). And the big patch didn't solve the imbalances between these "higher reward on lower skill lvl-lower risk builds" compared to high risk builds. Now we even have the situation that the sustain is still way too high, and that means mostly the noobfriendly facetank sustain before the active sustain. The powercreep in dmg got lower but the power creep in sustain and boonspam is still a problem. Now we still have bad players surviving way to long even when playing bad, due to their builds. That is still a low skilled and boring meta, and that now on a relatively slow paced lvl even my grandma would enjoy. And i always said: what killed e sport in the first place was too high sustain/ bunker meta, that is the worse can happen. I hope the next balance patch in hopefully 1-2 weeks will address that sustain finally.

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@uberkingkong.8041 said:1v1 means the top 20 going to stay top 20. Anytime you let the top 20 group together to be 100% of a team (1v1 they 100%), they going to win and not play against each other.

What you need is 8v8 and cap 2 people playing together, so forced 6 randoms. That means they 25% of the team, and its possible to beat them if the 75% is worse than your team % of good players.

Thats why they do it in 5v5, but 40% is still pretty dang high. Hopefully they bring 8v8 15v15 or something higher than 5v5, if I remember gw1 factions it was large amount of players per team, around 24 or so. Just have to remember to cap amount of people that can form the team to small amount like 2 per party can que up.

If matchmaking works properly, those 2 legendarys vs 8 platinums will turn into 2 legendaries 2 golds (maybe 2 silvers instead of gold, has to look at rating as well), 4 platinums. If matchmaking is working as its suppose to.

GW1 tournament play is team of 8. GW2 started out in 8v8, hotjoins was first thing out in pvp, it was 8v8.

Hmm what about a 9v9 mode with one class per slot... (yeah you know even if a class is kinda meh, it will still be there.).

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@viquing.8254 said:

@uberkingkong.8041 said:1v1 means the top 20 going to stay top 20. Anytime you let the top 20 group together to be 100% of a team (1v1 they 100%), they going to win and not play against each other.

What you need is 8v8 and cap 2 people playing together, so forced 6 randoms. That means they 25% of the team, and its possible to beat them if the 75% is worse than your team % of good players.

Thats why they do it in 5v5, but 40% is still pretty dang high. Hopefully they bring 8v8 15v15 or something higher than 5v5, if I remember gw1 factions it was large amount of players per team, around 24 or so. Just have to remember to cap amount of people that can form the team to small amount like 2 per party can que up.

If matchmaking works properly, those 2 legendarys vs 8 platinums will turn into 2 legendaries 2 golds (maybe 2 silvers instead of gold, has to look at rating as well), 4 platinums. If matchmaking is working as its suppose to.

GW1 tournament play is team of 8. GW2 started out in 8v8, hotjoins was first thing out in pvp, it was 8v8.

Hmm what about a 9v9 mode with one class per slot... (yeah you know even if a class is kinda meh, it will still be there.).

Well, it should be balancing it if it can. Like if theres 2 thieves of same rating it should put them on seperate teams, but all professions are highly played so the que would be long if it waited for perfect matchup.Also, this is a game where a profession like a guardian can be very bunker, does a lot of heals, or very glass cannon. So professions not really main concern, its balancing with rating. But again like I said, limit the people who can party into the que by 2 like they already doing, because the top 20 are going to be losing matches as they should because of matchmaking.

Even the top players in the NBA lose games and aren't 60 and 0, top seed is 53-12, 2nd seed is 49-14. When you go 100 or 60 and 1 or 0 in gw2 pvp, it is because they avoiding each other. I'm not really up there with them to be concerned, to be honest, but if you want to fix leaderboard manipulation. Larger teams, and less amount of people that can que together into it is the way to go. 8v8, 2 people can que together into it. Matchmaking needs to look at ratings, maybe add something where if someone is top 20 they get extra rating because someone that is 1st place compared to 200, is as big of a difference as 200 and 1000.Example would be leaderboard rank 1 and 2 que together, (1, 2), (200, 300), 600, 650, 700, 750 vs (50, 55), (100, 130), (160, 220), 350, 500. with () = party of 2.

As with NBA if they let players choose teams, I'm sure there wouldnt be a team 60 and 0.GW2, if top 20 actually fought each other, they wouldn't be 60 and 0.That is why you have to make larger teams, and limit party size because they can't manipulate it by avoiding each other by only playing with each other and not playing when the other people are playing. With larger teams they have to carry. 5v5 2 people que is 40% and if its them with 3 platinums vs 5 platinums of course they will win, thats why you have to make up difference like I said, because 1st on leaderboard compared to 200 on leaderboard is as big as 200 vs 1000.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:The season where duo que's were forbidden didn't have these ridiculous win/loss rates. It's literally the most common sense thing in the world. Don't put premades against PuGs. It's a waste of time for both teams from a competitiveness standpoint and corrupts ANY system you have to measure individual skill.

If you are going to allow premade duo ques, then the leaderboard should show the record as a team. If you show how much these players ranked at the top play solo versus as a team, you will see their quasi manipulation of the leaderboard.

Oh...and save me the part about "wanting to play with your friend". First, there are tournaments where you can play premades. Second, isn't it funny how these guys ONLY play with certain "friends".

Are good players forced to carry relatively bad players?

How do you read what I wrote and conclude that good players are "forced to carry" bad players?

Since you seem challenged in understanding the logic, I'm saying we have PROOF that these win/loss records are NOT indicative of individual performance. We had a season of NO DUO que and NOBODY had such ridiculous win/loss rates. Thus, it's sheer folly to have an individual leaderboard when the reality is that these players are accomplishing their "individual" rankings by grouping. It's literally the most common sense and easiest thing to comprehend.

There is NO algorithm that can account for a duo que versus solo players. The leaderboard is PROOF. Nobody should have almost 100% win rates if the matchmaking algorithm worked for such a high delta in quality of duo ques. Some duo ques are terrible..some are great...the the algorithm doesn't consider things like whether the duo que has discord or not...are the professions/builds compatible or not...how much experience do they have playing together...etc. These factors create such a high delta in quality that no algorithm can account for it. Thus, duo ques should be excluded unless you want to just pretend otherwise and think they don't corrupt matchmaking.

As for good/bad players duo queing, I didn't say anything about high ranked players being FORCED to que with bad players. You totally ignored the coincidence that the excuse most used by duo que proponents is "I want to play with my friends". You're super naive if you think these duo que'rs at the top of the leaderboard aren't cherry picking who they team with for ranking purposes.

I can guarantee these guys are "friends" with many people...both in game, discord and irl...but they don't get invite all their friends to duo que with them. Stop being naive and recognize the obvious. The individual leaderboard is corrupt and if you can't see that by the win/loss records and knowledge of how duo que can exploit weaknesses in the matchmaking, I'm not sure ANY evidence or logic will help you.

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@"SPESHAL.9106" said:How do you read what I wrote and conclude that good players are "forced to carry" bad players?

You also mentioned it here:

We had a season of NO DUO que and NOBODY had such ridiculous win/loss rates.

Solo queue only season implies good players are also solo queueing which means they might potentially be forced to carry 1 (in 2v2) or 4 (in conquest) people.

Also, pretty rude of you.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:How do you read what I wrote and conclude that good players are "forced to carry" bad players?

You also mentioned it here:

We had a season of NO DUO que and NOBODY had such ridiculous win/loss rates.

Solo queue only season implies good players are also solo queueing which means they might potentially be forced to carry 1 (in 2v2) or 4 (in conquest) people.

Also, pretty rude of you.

You really are having a hard time with simple logic, and now you're changing your OWN argument. You first asked why good players are forced to carry bad players as if this had any relevance to my point. Yet, you can't even keep your own illogical comments consistent. Now you say "might potentially be forced to carry". How on earth does your mind work such that you put the words "might" and "potentially" back to back in a sentence...this is AFTER you saying in a previous post they are "forced" to carry with no caveats.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make and you don't seem to either. Cya.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@SPESHAL.9106 said:snip

I will use easy words, maybe it will help you:

If a good player doesn't duo with another good player, that means they will probably get 1 more bad player in their team.

Now I am asking you:Are good players forced to carry relatively bad players? Because that's what soloq brings.

I don’t understand why ppl think other players are bad or that they ever really carried if it’s a 5v5 game. When these “top tier” players claim this very same thing, which a lot of ppl do on forums nonstop as a reason to mock solo qers, is just an example of never ending toxicity and nothing else.That said this is just kind of proof that certain players are only Qing together to get higher ratings than they normally could. It’s not everyone or even just “top tier” players, I know plenty of ppl that wouldn’t do this, but the ppl who do are pretty exclusive even though when they go into ats against plat1 players they often struggle highly.It’s just not a productive arguement nor will it ever be correct despite what many of the players who claim and pretend to be “top tier” think

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@Dantheman.3589 said:snip

You are right in one thing: most of the accounts in the leaderboard are either fake plats or alts.

Thing is, a few of them aren't any of those.

In a way, pvp and pve are similar in this fashion. Really good players are way better than any gold or even plat players since (excluding build carry) the learning curve is so high.

Also,

That said this is just kind of proof that certain players are only Qing together to get higher ratings than they normally could.

Doesn't this apply for everyone? I also win more when I am queueing with a friend who is on par with me.

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You are right in one thing: most of the accounts in the leaderboard are either fake plats or alts.

Thing is, a few of them aren't any of those.

In a way, pvp and pve are similar in this fashion. Really good players are way better than any gold or even plat players since (excluding build carry) the learning curve is so high.

Also,

That said this is just kind of proof that certain players are only Qing together to get higher ratings than they normally could.

Doesn't this apply for everyone? I also win more when I am queueing with a friend who is on par with me.

I mean I’ve been solo que about 95% of each season and getting accounts in top 10-25 most of them, so it’s not everyone. Point being if you actually are at the point where the game seems unplayable unless you duo and are in high elo, than isn’t kind of self verified that these players could never be there without duo q? Example one person who was legend last season was solo the first half and could never het higher than 1600 themselves until they duo qd in offhours. Now this doesn’t make them toxic but it’s just an example that many of these guys cannot get to top tier without duo, where as some ppl who don’t even duo can, which is the point it’s not because other ppl are bad it’s just a specific player problem.

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@Dantheman.3589 said:Example one person who was legend last season was solo the first half and could never het higher than 1600 themselves until they duo qd in offhours. Now this doesn’t make them toxic but it’s just an example that many of these guys cannot get to top tier without duo, where as some ppl who don’t even duo can, which is the point it’s not because other ppl are bad it’s just a specific player problem.

Soloq is already hard since you can get matches like 1v5, with duoq it becomes 2v5.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Example one person who was legend last season was solo the first half and could never het higher than 1600 themselves until they duo qd in offhours. Now this doesn’t make them toxic but it’s just an example that many of these guys cannot get to top tier without duo, where as some ppl who don’t even duo can, which is the point it’s not because other ppl are bad it’s just a specific player problem.

Soloq is already hard since you can get matches like 1v5, with duoq it becomes 2v5.

That’s just a bad way of looking at it. I never look at it that way, always trying to help my team out with advice and strategy can turn what feels like 1v5 into a perfect match

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@Dantheman.3589 said:That’s just a bad way of looking at it. I never look at it that way, always trying to help my team out with advice and strategy can turn what feels like 1v5 into a perfect match

I was getting double capper people in plat1-gold3 matches :/

I agree that you can change stuff midgame with good planning but why go that far? Getting a friend is a better way of winning than trying to convince people in /team.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:That’s just a bad way of looking at it. I never look at it that way, always trying to help my team out with advice and strategy can turn what feels like 1v5 into a perfect match

I was getting double capper people in plat1-gold3 matches :/

I agree that you can change stuff midgame with good planning but why go that far? Getting a friend is a better way of winning than trying to convince people in /team.

Because having 5 ppl on your team is better than having to 1v5 or 2v5. If the other team is just 2 players in legend on NA I’m pretty sure I’ve beaten them 5v2 before

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Soloq is already hard since you can get matches like 1v5, with duoq it becomes 2v5.

Why do you make it sound like you duo q get 3 bad players and the other team gets 5 good players? Like your duo que is better then the pugs top 2 and unless their 3 others are way better then your 3 randos you should still have an advantagequoted wrong thing at 1st sorry

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Soloq is already hard since you can get matches like 1v5, with duoq it becomes 2v5.

Why do you make it sound like you duo q get 3 bad players and the other team gets 5 good players? Like your duo que is better then the pugs top 2 and unless their 3 others are way better then your 3 randos you should still have an advantagequoted wrong thing at 1st sorry

Pugs this pugs that. The fact that ppl have a pet name for other ppl than there duo is part of the never ending toxicity of players in this game, which btw ppl are very aware of at this point.The reality- if you are a duo that is the whole team than you are weak compared to average player in your elo.

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:snip

I will use easy words, maybe it will help you:

If a good player doesn't duo with another good player, that means they will probably get 1 more bad player in their team.

Now I am asking you:Are good players forced to carry relatively bad players? Because that's what soloq brings.

I will use LOGIC and FACTS to help you.

If everyone is solo que, you are matched against a similar team of solo quers. Yes, some on your team may have better ratings than others, but the overall mix of the teams is close to even. Are you seriously whining about that??? Are you saying that a better player SHOULDN'T play up to his skill and rating in a game?

Like all your points to-date...That makes no sense. You're basically saying it's ok to stack teams with high skill players and the "rationale" is that the high skill players shouldn't have to play up to their skill. They should be able to play average and just coast to a perfect win/loss record like we see now. How on earth can you justify that???

Maybe if you ask yourself these questions, you will finally get the point...How do you get accurate individual ratings if you allow people to always que with other players with synergistic build, professions, discord and experience playing together??? The leaderboard lists INDIVIDUALS not duos. How do you accurately rank a person who always solo que's versus someone who always stacks the deck???

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