Dragon Gender & Torment

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I can't stop pondering this because there's consternation over both what Jormag's gender is and whether Jormag's intent is for good or ill. It's interesting that whilst the Forsaken couldn't break Kralkatorrik from his torment with their ritual, they were able to break Glint from hers, and Aurene is able to resist the torment completely. I feel that the torment itself plays a big role in all of this, I think that what the dragons have done thus far is either due to the affliction of the torment or out of an effort to resist it. What's fascinating is is that Jormag might be going a bit crazy with being overprotective because she doesn't want anyone to fall to one of the dragons who is afflicted with torment, and due to being fairly out-of-touch (which I'd say would be easy for an Elder Dragon) she doesn't realise why bringing everyone under her protection with mind control-like persuasion is bad.

"I'm protecting you. You'd want this if you understood what it was I was offering you, if you understood the dangers, if you understood what will happen to the world if we don't stand against the torment. I don't know how to explain this to you, so it's just far easier to opt for mental persuasion because you wouldn't be able to understand in time and I'm not going to limit your will in any way other than what I'd need to to protect you. Admittedly, some of my influence is making the mortal children xenophobic but once I have everyone under my sway there's going to be no 'them' to worry about other than the torment so that'll pass. It's just an unfortunate side effect of what I'm trying to do. I'm just tryign to protect you and you're too folish to realise that."

In other words Jormag is the hero of her own story. She sees the torment of Primordius and the deep sea-dwelling Elder Dragon and she's preparing for what it'll drive them to do. In other words, Jormag may not be fully resisting the torment but she might be more akin to Glint and Aurene than we realise. That the torment is nagging at her mind may be why she's so ardent about this approach because she knows how dangerous it is. Whatever the torment was originally created for, it now seems to want to enforce the cycle of destruction and creation. It afflicted Kralkatorrik with great pain and promised him that if he ended everything the pain too would cease.

It's looking more and more like the Elder Dragons are just patsies to the torment, something that Jormag wants no part of. Jormag wants the cycle of destruction and creation to end because that's standing in opposition to the torment. Kralkatorrik told us that Aurene is able to resist the torment for some reason and we know that after the Forgotten ritual Glint was able to as well. What if that's true of Jormag? What if Jormag broke herself free? Gender may play a role in this. The male approach to aggressive domination seems to serve the desires of torment better, so maybe that's why it's able to exert its will there more thoroughly. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like the more masculine dragons are all in with the torment whilst the more feminine ones aren't.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

One clarification: The Forgotten's ritual wasn't related to the torment at all. It was used to give Glint free will, breaking her from Kralkatorrik's thrall. It was used on Kralkatorrik in hopes of purifying him, but his hunger and greed for magic was too strong that he resisted the ritual.

Gender can't play a role in it because the Elder Dragons and their scions don't actually have biological male-female genders. This was established back in 2009 and is why Jormag is now called "non-binary". Technically, so was Mordremoth, Zhaitan, Primordus, and even Kralkatorrik. Glint, Aurene, and Vlast assumed genders because of their relations to mortals - but there's no reason for the Elder Dragons to do so, since they don't care about relating to them. Glint and Aurene do call Kralkatorrik male, pronouns but he never calls himself such. From a narrative perspective, this was likely done for the sake of drama and writing - after all, having lines like "Grandfather, look at me!" or "I am not him." sounds better than "Grandparent, look at me!" and "I am not them." (well, okay, the latter still works).

You keep referring to Jormag as female, likely because Jormag's voice actor is female - same happens with Mordremoth even - but they're both genderless. Jormag doesn't care whether they're called he, she, or they (and undoubtedly doesn't mind being called it) so long as how they're called can further their goals.

The "high dragons", as I dub them, have only shown signs of being asexual. This is why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Aurene's and Vlast's father. By all indication, there doesn't seem to be one.

[Zola.6197]

I think the parallels you point to between the dragons that are presented more feminine vs masculine simply falls into old stereotypes about gender, and what traits and methods are viewed as more "female" or "male." Women are often pegged as being more manipulative, social, compromising, nurturing, etc, where as men are often associated with the opposite spectrum. So we see these stereotypes reflected in a lot of popular literature/media, and GW2 is no exception. Coincidentally, I think Jormag has a female VA because we've had three EDs who have all been attributed he/him pronouns and/or had male voice actors.

Konig is correct though, Elder Dragons are technically genderless beings and in so far we know, it seems they reproduce asexually/magically. One of the devs has confirmed in Jormag's case that they are "non-binary" and don't fall into the traditional male-female binary. By and large, I think Jormag's VA being female is mostly to switch things up, and even then they warp the actress' voice to sound a bit more androgynous. Especially in the original Icebrood Saga trailer, it wasn't immediately easy to tell the gender of the VA. The last episode though, the vocal quality definitely sounded more feminine than before to me.

I do enjoy the notion that Jormag thinks they're saving the world/mortal races though, but that their experience of time/reality/the world is so alien to us that they seem incomprehensible, sinister, and dangerous. Of course, I fully believe Jormag is an evil being, but I see them as lawful evil so far. They would be willing to accept compromise and want to be part of the new world order, and thus they're forging alliances. Jormag won't balk at doing "evil" things (if the EDs really have a concept of morality to begin with), but I think they can play by the rules -- and they have a clear interest in helping to establish those new, hypothetical rules.

[Dawdler.8521]

Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

Mordremoth was commented on breathing several times throughout HoT.

Kralkatorrik bleeds, as that's how the Dragonsblood spear was made (and the yoke that Snaff created to mind-link him to Kralkatorrik). He also has a heartbeat, as experienced in Descent.

And Glint is Kralkatorrik's child, so he breeded too.

The Elder Dragons are often compared to being forces of nature for the perspective of Tyrians who don't know any better and view the Elder Dragons as nothing more than an unstoppable distant threat, but the Elder Dragons are thinking, living creatures. That do indeed breath, bleed, and breed.

Unlike mountains.

They no longer have a natural biology like typical reptiles, but that doesn't stop them from being living creatures. And if a creature is living, then a question of biological sex can be asked; similarly, if a creature is intelligent and has social bearings, then the question of gender roles can similarly be asked.

Whether such is important to a fictional setting is another matter, but with the crystal dragon family taking various positions of male or female to relate to mortals, and Jormag taking a stance of "view me however you like" while it helps their plans, ANet has indeed made both of these questions relevant and worth asking. To a degree, at least.

[Teratus.2859]

I think the gender question is only relevant to players who really give a damn about what is ultimately a pointless attribute.Whether Elder Dragons are male or female or whatever really doesn't change anything important or relevant about them.

Their personalities are going to be the same as are their capability to reproduce so whatever gender the mortals of Tyria want to attribute to genderless beings doesn't mean anything.Elder Dragons are ridiculously powerful creatures which are almost godlike in power so they likely could care less about what pronouns insigfnificant mortals use for them.

So far the only instance of such a thing even being in the game has come from the commander who "corrects" a Charr (Bangar I think) about Aurine when she was referred to as an it.Frankly Aurine herself probably would not have cared about this as with all the important things going on in the world that she is paying attention to, this kind of thing would be so far into the realms of irrelevance that it would be complete pettyness for her to even dignify it with a response.

As for the Torment side of things, this is a far more interesting area for conversation.I'm curious as to if we'll see more dragon torments in future and how different they will be, if they are at all.

Kralkatorriks torment we know give him relentless hunger and great conflict within himself.Jormag as far as we know doesn't appear to be suffering from the same thing and seems at least to be far more in control of it's mind than the majorly unstable Kralkatorrik was.What we do know about Jormag though is that it lies and manipulates, betrays those it makes deals with etc which tends to suggest that Jormag's torment could be more related to mistrust and paranoia which would be far more in line with it's manipulative and controlling personality.. perhaps it's preference for it's subjects to choose corruption gives it piece of mind or something, after all those who would choose servitude/slavery willingly would be far more compliant than those forced into it.

Then again Im not sure if it's confirmed yet that all dragons suffer from Torment, Kralkatorrik could very well be the only one although it's unlikely.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One clarification: The Forgotten's ritual wasn't related to the torment at all. It was used to give Glint free will, breaking her from Kralkatorrik's thrall. It was used on Kralkatorrik in hopes of purifying him, but his hunger and greed for magic was too strong that he resisted the ritual.

Gender can't play a role in it because the Elder Dragons and their scions don't actually have biological male-female genders. This was established back in 2009 and is why Jormag is now called "non-binary". Technically, so was Mordremoth, Zhaitan, Primordus, and even Kralkatorrik. Glint, Aurene, and Vlast assumed genders because of their relations to mortals - but there's no reason for the Elder Dragons to do so, since they don't care about relating to them. Glint and Aurene do call Kralkatorrik male, pronouns but he never calls himself such. From a narrative perspective, this was likely done for the sake of drama and writing - after all, having lines like "Grandfather, look at me!" or "I am not him." sounds better than "Grandparent, look at me!" and "I am not them." (well, okay, the latter still works).

You keep referring to Jormag as female, likely because Jormag's voice actor is female - same happens with Mordremoth even - but they're both genderless. Jormag doesn't care whether they're called he, she, or they (and undoubtedly doesn't mind being called it) so long as how they're called can further their goals.

The "high dragons", as I dub them, have only shown signs of being asexual. This is why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Aurene's and Vlast's father. By all indication, there doesn't seem to be one.

I always thought Mordremoth as the Father of Aurene.

Thats why she had some similar features.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

Mordremoth was commented on breathing several times throughout HoT.

Kralkatorrik bleeds, as that's how the Dragonsblood spear was made (and the yoke that Snaff created to mind-link him to Kralkatorrik). He also has a heartbeat, as experienced in Descent.

And Glint is Kralkatorrik's child, so he breeded too.Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also

breeding

, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

[anninke.7469]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).

[Stephen.6312]

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I can't stop pondering this because there's consternation over both what Jormag's gender is and whether Jormag's intent is for good or ill. It's interesting that whilst the Forsaken couldn't break Kralkatorrik from his torment with their ritual, they were able to break Glint from hers, and Aurene is able to resist the torment completely. I feel that the torment itself plays a big role in all of this, I think that what the dragons have done thus far is either due to the affliction of the torment or out of an effort to resist it. What's fascinating is is that Jormag might be going a bit crazy with being overprotective because she doesn't want anyone to fall to one of the dragons who is afflicted with torment, and due to being fairly out-of-touch (which I'd say would be easy for an Elder Dragon) she doesn't realise why bringing everyone under her protection with mind control-like persuasion is bad.

"I'm protecting you. You'd want this if you understood what it was I was offering you, if you understood the dangers, if you understood what will happen to the world if we don't stand against the torment. I don't know how to explain this to you, so it's just far easier to opt for mental persuasion because you wouldn't be able to understand in time and I'm not going to limit your will in any way other than what I'd need to to protect you. Admittedly, some of my influence is making the mortal children xenophobic but once I have everyone under my sway there's going to be no 'them' to worry about other than the torment so that'll pass. It's just an unfortunate side effect of what I'm trying to do. I'm just tryign to protect you and you're too folish to realise that."

In other words Jormag is the hero of her own story. She sees the torment of Primordius and the deep sea-dwelling Elder Dragon and she's preparing for what it'll drive them to do. In other words, Jormag may not be fully resisting the torment but she might be more akin to Glint and Aurene than we realise. That the torment is nagging at her mind may be why she's so ardent about this approach because she knows how dangerous it is. Whatever the torment was originally created for, it now seems to want to enforce the cycle of destruction and creation. It afflicted Kralkatorrik with great pain and promised him that if he ended everything the pain too would cease.

It's looking more and more like the Elder Dragons are just patsies to the torment, something that Jormag wants no part of. Jormag wants the cycle of destruction and creation to end because that's standing in opposition to the torment. Kralkatorrik told us that Aurene is able to resist the torment for some reason and we know that after the Forgotten ritual Glint was able to as well. What if that's true of Jormag? What if Jormag broke herself free? Gender may play a role in this. The male approach to aggressive domination seems to serve the desires of torment better, so maybe that's why it's able to exert its will there more thoroughly. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like the more masculine dragons are all in with the torment whilst the more feminine ones aren't.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but here goes...

My gut feeling about this "torment" thing is that it's due, in part, to the overlap of the various magics. Right now we have been presented with the idea that magic is like light. So, it consists of red magic, blue magic, and green magic. The extent to which torment affects a dragon might be linked to the number of colors that it can combine. So, Primordus and Bubbles experience the most torment; Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth experience quite a bit of torment; Zaithan and Jormag experience the least torment, perhaps none at all.

Then there's Aurene. We tend to think that she doesn't experience torment, or that she won't ever experience torment. It's quite possible. As a hybrid dragon, inheriting traits from Mordy (green-yellow) and Kralk (purple), she has the genetics to help her metabolize torment in a similar manner to Jormag.

In fact, Jormag's true form may be similar to Aurene's; they may both be breathtakingly beautiful. Hence, Gorrik's statement that Aurene is some kind of new "prismatic" dragon is probably wrong. Jormag, like Aurene, is "prismatic" in that it can combine the various magics to generate an incredibly pure form of white light.

I guess the long and short of this is that Aurene isn't as unique as the Free Peoples of Tyria think, and that an Elder Dragon's ability to metabolize torment isn't just about the gender with which they identify. For Zaithan, the first dragon to fall, was definitely incredibly capable, perhaps the most capable, of the Elder Dragons. It fielded a large army and strategically worked toward specific military goals, doubtless to benefit both itself and it's fellows.

I believe that, when we finally see Jormag's true form, it will be one of the most amazing things that we have ever witnessed. It gets me thinking: Has Bangar seen Jormag's form? Or has he heard legends from others? Does he know something about Jormag that we don't? Perhaps seeing Jormag's higher form really would drive someone like Bangar mad for Jormag.

[Dawdler.8521]

@anninke.7469 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also

breeding

, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

[Yasai.3549]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Mountains are usually given female pronouns for some reason (read that it's probably due to ancient people thinking mountains are giant goddess or deities)

I think arguing about a Dragon's gender is the same as arguing about the gender of a roll of toilet paper.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Not quite. After all, mountains don't breath, bleed, or breed.A mountain can shake with an earthquake, erupt as a violent volcano and be just one of many in a mountain range created by the movement of the earth. Dragons are a force of nature. I would also argue they dont do anything of what you say either. At least not by human definition.

Mordremoth was commented on breathing several times throughout HoT.

Kralkatorrik bleeds, as that's how the Dragonsblood spear was made (and the yoke that Snaff created to mind-link him to Kralkatorrik). He also has a heartbeat, as experienced in Descent.

And Glint is Kralkatorrik's child, so he breeded too.Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also

breeding

, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

I mean, we literally see Kralkatorrik bleeding and hear its heartbeat indicating it still lived. And we know they reproduce because they have children.

Can't get much more verification than literally witnessing it first hand.

And no, reproduction does not require more than one sexes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction

I imagine with Elder Dragons, it's some magical variation of Parthenogenesis. Granted I'm no biologist, so my understanding may be off and I may be drastically incorrect.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anninke.7469 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also

breeding

, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

That seems a bit of a strawman argument in relation to the Elder Dragon topic. Being asexual / genderless / non-binary (whatever terminology would be most accurate), is not the same as "genders and sexes are false".

And anninke was talking about more than just gender, but the bleeding and breathing parts too. Mountains are inanimate objects, made of rocks and other inorganic materials. Elder Dragons - and sylvari - are made out of organic material. They breath, they bleed, and, in the case of dragons, they also reproduce.

They're not inorganic entities, they're fully organic. Even if they're non-standard organics.

Unlike mountains and toilet papers.

[Valmir.4590]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Arguing what gender a dragon have is about the same as arguing what gender a mountain have.

Mountains are usually given female pronouns for some reason (read that it's probably due to ancient people thinking mountains are giant goddess or deities)

I think arguing about a Dragon's gender is the same as arguing about the gender of a roll of toilet paper.

It really depends on the language. Most of the name of mountains in France (and thus in french) are male, for instance.

[Teratus.2859]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anninke.7469 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also

breeding

, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

So, where does this put the sylvari (and possibly the other plant creatures, although I have no idea how they reproduce) in your opinion? Since they have no heart and their "blood" is, in fact, sap. And they don't sexually reproduce (which apparently doesn't prevent them from having sexes and genders).You just proved the point. The "gender" of a Sylvari is selected by the Pale Tree based on its interpretation of the shape and functionality of human biology.

Ie its completely fake. They dont have real genders. Its like putting a banana in your pants and declaring "I am now male!". I mean you can still use it for certain purposes...

In regards to Sylvari their phsyical gender IE S word (would probably get censored here) is completely irrlevant for multiple reasons.

Firstly they cannot reproduce so the difference between male and female sylvari is purely cosmetic and not in any way biologically functional or neccessary.

Secondly Sylvari gender doesn't factor into any relevant roles or even attraction and relationships.All Sylvari as far as we know have no gender preference when it comes to relationships, intimacy or anything like that which would be relevant for most other species.Sylvari romance is rather based on a connection between two Sylvari and pretty much nothing else, it doesn't matter to them what their mate looks like or what physical gender they represent or even morality, it's entirely about who that person is instead and the connection between them.

Caithe and Faolain are a good example, no matter how many times they opposed each other and choose different paths they still loved each other and were drawn to one another, and that only changed after Faolain was corrupted by Mordremoth and Caithe finally regarded her as dead, which is why she had little trouble with killing her in the end but could never bring herself to do it before no matter how evil she was.

In many ways you could also say that Sylvari are also technically genderless beings because of this, although they do physically mimic bigendered humans, gender is still a concept that serves no actual relevance to them.

As for dragons well they reproduce solo and need no companions or mates.. Glint layed eggs and 2 of them we know hatched and we also know that Glint came from Kralkatorrik and Kralkatorrik too was also born and had a mother so it's a pretty safe bet that this entire bloodline of Dragons both came from and are capable of laying eggs.The real questions there is whether or not they retain that ability after becoming Elder Dragons and whether Glint was born before or after Kralkatorrik become a Elder Dragon.. we don't know how old Glint is but we do know she was around during the last Elder Dragon rising, possibly more before that but that's not been confirmed.

Considering though that Elder Dragons have been around for a very, very long and there is little to no evidence of them actually reproducing outside of Glint then there's a chance that becoming an Elder Dragon does stop the ability to produce eggs, reproducing being pointless to immortals not to mention the physical changes the dragon's body would go though as we've seen first hand with Aurine.Dragon Champions can come in as a coutner to this however we know for a fact that Zhaitans and Kralkatorriks Dragon Champions were created not born and it's also expected that it's the same for Shadow of the Dragon and Claw of Jormag as well, not real corrupted dragons but mearly powerful constructs.The only Dragons that come to mind as real born ones that still exist are the Canthan Saltspreys which don't have much of an origin story right now and most fo them were corrupted in the Jade Wind too so there probably aren't many of them around these days either unless they've managed to repopulate over the years.

[Drgnfly.5812]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Is any of that correct though? We can easily describe a tree as bleeding when you stab it. It doesnt mean it has blood. And how do you know its actual breath and heartbeats and not just the dragon mimicking it in their physical form? Have you verified an elder dragon has lungs and veins? That it has any need for air to live and something to pump blood? The statement was also breeding, yes. As in a sexual action that requires gender. Did the elder dragons do the nasty? Or did Kralkatorrik just Thanos snap Glint into existance? Do we know?

These are very interesting concepts being discussed here. Are the Elder Dragons "alive"? I suppose the first step would be to give a biological definition to the word Life from a Tyrian perspective. I would submit that our current biological definition would be most useful here. A thing could be considered alive if it is composed of cells that metabolizes magics, that grows and responds to the environment, and that regulates an internal state with the capability of replication and adaptation. Using this definition I believe we can consider both Elder Dragons and Sylvari to be alive. The Risen, the Awakened, ghosts, and other necromantic minions do not seem to completely fulfill this definition and are therefore are classified as undead.

The next question would be "Do all living things (organisms) in Tyria have a sex?". Sex is a label often used to describe the biological reproductive characteristics of an organism. Based of the information presented within the game, we can see that multiple types of reproductive characteristics should exist within Tyria. Humans appear to have the typical types of sexual characteristics found IRL. But Sylvari are born forth from the Pale Tree and sexual characteristics are more ambiguous. Sylvari seem to be produced through a magically induced system of asexual reproduction. Sylvari may therefore be considered magically motile fruit capable of interaction with other creatures. I theorize Sylvari are not so much individuals but divergent physical expressions of the Pale Tree itself.

Elder Dragons are different problem unto themselves when it comes sex determination. Because they are portrayed to be such ancient entities shrouded in both mystery and power many of the following statements are admittedly conjecture. We have evidence of a singular dragon, Glint, producing eggs. It is generally accepted that egg production is a female characteristic. If we found evidence that Jormag, Mordremoth, or any other dragon created eggs then we should consider that dragon to be female. Since we do not know how dragon's reproduce such a distinction is probably meaningless. However, my theory is that the dragons of Tyria are haplodiploids. Their unfertilized eggs become male and thereby give rise to creations such as Vlast. Fertilized dragon eggs create female dragons and give rise rise to creatures such as Aurene. And here we might unexpectedly have caught a glimpse of Glint's overall plan. Glint wanted Mordremoth to fertilize her egg! To create a new dragon that could take Glint's place an Elder Dragon had to die. So Glint manipulated the Commander into fulfilling her desire! Clever Glint predicting the future then plotting to make it so. ;)

What does this tell us about Jormag? Admittedly not much of anything. The story still needs to unfold. But what if Jormag is female? What if Glint inadvertently taught Jormag how to create her own female Scion? What if this story goes deeper than we think? What secrets might rise to the surface? I have really high hopes that I am on the right track. Because imagine if Jormag wants to create a dragon to balance the existence of Aurene, who would she use? Primordus or the DSD?

[Jimbru.6014]

Zhaitan, Mordy and Kralk all had male voices, and NPCs in game referred to them with male or neutral pronouns.

Jormag deliberately does not choose a gender and whispers in many voices; I have heard both male and female whispers at different times in game. Jormag will use whatever gender and voice gets you to listen. The Sons of Svanir see Jormag as male, but to everyone else, Jormag is simply "IT", and rightly so.

There seems to be a broad assumption that Primordus is male, probably because the "-us" ending makes the name sound masculine (it's a masculine form in Latin). But we have never heard Primordus speak and information about Primordus is relatively scarce compared to the other dragons.

DSD is a complete mystery.

Vlast spoke and was referred to as male. Glint's voice and references were female, as are Aurene's.

Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.

I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.

Many mysteries...

[Zola.6197]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.

Agree with pretty much all you're saying, but an important note is that Vlast was Glint's first scion, with Aurene being her second (and Vlast being her elder sibling, essentially).

A shame he had barely any screentime.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:Zhaitan, Mordy and Kralk all had male voices, and NPCs in game referred to them with male or neutral pronouns.

Zhaitan doesn't have a voice, but it's screeches were high pitched compared to Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, or Primordus, so I imagine if Zhaitan did have a voice, it'd have a female voice actor.

There seems to be a broad assumption that Primordus is male, probably because the "-us" ending makes the name sound masculine (it's a masculine form in Latin). But we have never heard Primordus speak and information about Primordus is relatively scarce compared to the other dragons.I don't think there's any such assumption, just that the English language has a long-standing history of denoting figures with unknown gender as masculine. This has been changing in the past decade with gender movement, to be more utilizing the formerly less common "they", though, but overall Primordus is never actively given a gender, much like Zhaitan.

Glint and Vlast were Kralk's scions. We don't know who or what their "mother" was, if they had any. Similarly, we don't know who or what Aurene's "father" was.As mentioned by @"Svennis.3852", Vlast was Glint's scion - Glint didn't have any siblings (known to us players).

I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.Maybe not - the Mordrem Spitfires seen in Dragon's Stand are internally called "Lesser Mordremoth Heads", and have an appearance bearing heavy resemblance to Mordremoth which may signify that these were also scions born from Mordremoth's true body (the Mouth of Mordremoth). Unless Mordremoth was secretly some sort of Beholder thing, a bundle of snakes with many, many small heads.

[Drgnfly.5812]

@Jimbru.6014 said:I'm wondering if the Elder Dragons have scions by parthenogenesis -- or even WHY they have scions, for that matter. Apparently Kralk wanted his to be super minions, but it didn't work out that way. And so far as we know, Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions.

If we are to accept that the sex determination of the Elder Dragons is anything other than female then parthenogenesis would not be a good description. Parthenogenesis specifically refers to reproduction from an ovum, a female reproductive cell.

As far as Kralkatorrik being the only Elder Dragon to produce scions there is no lore or information from developers to support that statement. Glint was a champion and scion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but she was not the only champion and therefore possibly not the only scion. Unless definitive statements are given about the other champions (Drakkar, Tequatl, The Great Destroyer, et al.) or the Elder Dragons themselves then we have to entertain the possibility that these champions are scions of the Elder Dragons too.

[Zola.6197]

I would argue that a scion is a direct continuation of that dragon’s line. Kralk > glint > vlast and Aurene are all “crystal” dragons and share inherent biological traits and/or hereditary abilities. We haven’t learned of any offspring/scions of other EDs yet, but a scion is specifically defined as the offspring of an ED on the wiki, whereas a Champion is not. In so far as I can fell, a champion is simply another being corrupted/uplifted by an ED (though clearly a scion can also be an ED champion).

Perhaps some champions are created by an ED, but if so these are not defined as being the result of reproduction like Kralk and Glint’s scions.

And that’s just thus far. The writers could drop a lore bomb that reveals Teq was Zhaitan’s child/scion at any time, etc. lol

[Zola.6197]

Woof. That tea is just... cold. It’s frigid. Jormag just corrupted that tea into Icebrood.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Drgnfly.5812" said:As far as Kralkatorrik being the only Elder Dragon to produce scions there is no lore or information from developers to support that statement. Glint was a champion and scion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but she was not the only champion and therefore possibly not the only scion. Unless definitive statements are given about the other champions (Drakkar, Tequatl, The Great Destroyer, et al.) or the Elder Dragons themselves then we have to entertain the possibility that these champions are scions of the Elder Dragons too.

It is confirmed that Glint is Kralkatorriks Scion and she came from Kralkatorrik but it is to my knowledge not confirmed if she was born before or after Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon.We do know that Kralkatorrik was also born from a mother and from that can also speculate that Kralkatorrik was at one point in time a normal Dragon and not an Elder Dragon.

The fact that Elder Dragons are immortal and can create minions and various other creatures does suggest that reproduction is pretty irrelevant for them so Im leaning more to the idea that Glint was born before Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon and he likely did to Glint what Aurine did with Caithe before he was corrupted by torment and became what he did.. Glint's "connection" as Caithe described it becoming corruption instead.

As for the other Champions it is confirmed on the wiki pages for some of them that Dragon Champions like Shatterer and Tequatl were not corrupted beings, they were created by their Elder Dragons to be powerful Champions and it's speculated that others like Shadow of the Dragon and Claw of Jormag were also created as well.That would make Glint more unique as far as Dragon Champions go.

I guess unique also applies to Aurine in this case too since her Champion is an uncorrupted mortal.. I.E us lol