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The Post patch discussion, how do we feel about revenant now?


Thornwolf.9721

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:The benchmark is great, for PvE min-maxing. But it is suffering in WvW and PvP. Im talking in a general feel a crossed the game, and as I don't raid and don't really care for that content mode Its kinda one of those things thats "cool it can raid! Im happy for them."

My responses were solely directed at Zaswer's opinion's, not directed at your initial post or further statements, so take that as you will. Not meant to be my general feelings on the class as a whole or how it's performing in WvW/PvP

Oh alright, my bad mate. I wasn't sure I know raiders come in a circle jerk numbers on test golems but I just feel like sometimes its not the best way to indicate how a class is currently, its easy to rack up damage on a standing target. Another to put it into action on a player, or even a moving target with differing parameters. I meant nothing by it ~

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[PVP Perspective]

Condition Mallys is meta, so in that regard Rev is in a good spot.

Power Rev kind of isn't. A big problem is they nerfed power rev in the wrong way. They really should have focused on reducing quickness, since cheesing animations out for massive burst damage was a big part of what made it "unfun" for other classes to fight against. Technically, that part of power Rev still exists. You can still play Shiro/Glint and still go Brutality+Song and have shitloads of quickness uptime, and you can still do some pretty good bursts because of it. The issue with power Rev is they nerfed everything else. Sustain on Devestation is basically deleted from PvP, RS nerfed to the ground, Staff 5 nerfed to the ground, base damage significantly gutted, condi clear is actually worse now, it just feels really clunky to play. Like you now HAVE to play it as a quickness oneshot cheese or else the ol' Shiro/Glint build flat out doesn't work. You can still play it, it's just not meta.

There is Shiro/Jalis Renegod. It's not awful and the build I use for it does work. (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAweZldQMMHyj1QdsHij9RksAigl+067G-zZIPlMFC9KCyXB0xEwDDA . Rune of divinity is also viable. ) But even that is significantly harder to play and do well with than Condi mallyx builds. The staff 5 and RS nerfs probably hurt the hardest. The worst of it really is staff 5. It just feels ridiculously clunky to use and the amount of player skill needed to land it is unironically a thousand times higher than most other CCs in the game. To interrupt a key skill you have to outplay people to the point where you need to both correctly predict where they will be and what skill they will be using a full 3 seconds into the future. No other ability in the game comes anywhere close to being this manic.

[PVE Perspective]

PVE actually feels better off. The new sword 2 is a lot less buggy for DPS rotations, and battle scars PvE sustain split makes for a lot of really good solo builds.

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so I took rev out into pvp with the purpose of testing power myself and honestly without empty vessel its trash, the whole thing becomes a ping-pong match and once you try to use a cc-break you're right back to being cc'd. Its completely nonviable and at this point id rather them remove all our power options and force us to go full condi, because it seems to me thats exactly what they are trying to do. This whole change, down from the fact that they gutted one of the core playstyles to the fact that they willingly overlooked rune of tormenting and condition power acrossed the board tells me they want a condi-centric game.

I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there.) This has got to be the biggest and most annoying change for me, because they KNEW that this would end badly and they did it anyway. THEY KNEW full well that shiro would feel like crap, would play like crap and would be inferior and they did this inspite of that because of the lacking of peoples understand or willful ignorance on how to counter it.

Im not even sure its shiro himself but the impact the rest of the changes on the class have been, mallyx/glint is insanely strong right now but you see I know for a fact it will get nerfed into the ground so I don't want to invest in it. I know full well it will be gutted and I know they won't compensate us, they wont fix power as hammer has been sitting there broken for months. The amount of anger as a rev main I feel is immeasurable, its legit "Might as well re-roll" because once mallyx is murdered we won't have a viable way to play outside of MAYBE a bunker tank in jalis/kalla with being a prot bot and alacrity slave. So now we don't have our duelist nature like we did in HoT launch after we got nerfed, we don't have many good weapons as all of them kind of suck outside of mace/axe and sword/shield and thats in combination with one another.

Hammer? Could remove it from the class and wouldn't make a difference.Shortbow? Same as hammer.Staff? Same as above now.

It just seems so short-sighted in my eyes that they would put us in this situation, and not at least consider that we are aware at how they function. They wont fix the bunker meta until the season is over; That is just how its going to be. Condi's will be insane until then as will any other broken interactions; And to me that is indicative of them willfully doing this for the sake of doing it.

Any new rev's who read this, go condi for the foreseeable future. Because power is dead.

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:

Any new rev's who read this, go condi for the foreseeable future. Because power is dead.

Agreed, Condi is gonna keep the status quo for a loooong time if Anerf doesn't address it soon, and they probably won't.

The only thing Power has going for it right now is PvE which is unarguably strong because alot of aspects of PvE Revenant are left entirely intact and unmolested by PvP/WvW nerfs.

Power isn't exactly "dead" in competitive modes but yu should really listen to all the Revenant threads : It's not worth it, it's too difficult, and yu need extreme knowledge of yur matchups to pull it off.

I'm still playing it, and I still have some success with it, but it is being carried entirely through gimmicks and trait combinations which are in a volatile state and could change anytime and invalidate my build's existence.

I freaking hate it but I will keep playing Power Rev as a middle finger to Anerf's balance team until they wrench Swords away from me and bury it.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:so I took rev out into pvp with the purpose of testing power myself and honestly without empty vessel its trash, the whole thing becomes a ping-pong match and once you try to use a cc-break you're right back to being cc'd.

Glaring Resolve is pretty much essential, but the problem with that is that it's competing with Cleansing Channel and power rev needs all the condi cleanse it can get. Makes me wonder if part of the reason why condi revs are doing well is because they can have condition management and Glaring Resolve.

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Revenants were designed to receive reduced recharge or additional effects on skills as compensation for dual gating — having both recharge and energy to manage. Compare Counterattack and Warding Rift to see just how little this applies now.

Comparing competitive numbers:

  • Primary effect— COUNTERATTACK= 3 seconds block / 25 seconds (20 when traited) recharge vs. WARDING RIFT= 2 seconds block / 20 seconds recharge + 10 energy

  • Secondary effect—COUNTERATTACK= 3/4 second evade + CC vs. WARDING RIFT= melee range Blind in a narrow forward facing cone

For paying both energy and recharge, Revenants get less total block / second base, and drastically less block / second when traited. The fact that there is a rollover 3/4 second evade + CC competing with a melee range blind in a forward facing cone is the icing on the cake. Revenant weapon skills have been gutted, while other classes have received bloat and simply deal with recharge to manage. Revenant also receives no recharge bonuses anywhere, which is a significant penalty compared to other classes.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

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@Buran.3796 said:

I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

Then I have no Idea what its good at outside of being an Alacrity bot.

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@Buran.3796 said:

I can't believe how un-fun it is to play shiro now, on any level and in any mode he is just not fun to play right now outside of PvE. (But really who cares, we knew PvE rev would be fine, its not like any major changes outside of out-right removal of trait lines would kill them there).

Honestly I don't think that power Rev is that much hotter in PvE either (at least in open world content). If you try to do something like the Dragon Stand meta event with power you will get a lot less revenue than doing it with a shortbow Renegade: if you run the typical mele power Shiro you'll find that a lot of enemies will melt due ranged attacks from your fellows before you can even touch them, and if you run the hammer the ultra slow cast of the AoE skills can't compete with the shortbow + citadel bombardment. But something similar happens to the Firebrands: Dragon Hunter with lowbow and traps is better than FB with scepter + tomes at farming large mob groups.

You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

And they can still self stack 25 might as well as give Alacrity uptime.Renegade DPS would be way stronger as a DPS especially with how they can stack insane amounts of Vuln with Icerazor, which translate to many stacks of Battle Scars through Dance of Death, which are conveniently consumed at the same time, giving crazy burst sustain and damage at the same time.

And this is not counting the party DPS increase through Soulcleave's

Alacri-gade has always been used hand in hand with Firebrand to form the Firebr-igade, and the new update actually made their personal DPS higher.

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@Julius Seizure.4985 said:Revenants were designed to receive reduced recharge or additional effects on skills as compensation for dual gating — having both recharge and energy to manage. Compare Counterattack and Warding Rift to see just how little this applies now.

Comparing competitive numbers:

  • Primary effect— COUNTERATTACK= 3 seconds block / 25 seconds (20 when traited) recharge vs. WARDING RIFT= 2 seconds block / 20 seconds recharge + 10 energy

  • Secondary effect—COUNTERATTACK= 3/4 second evade + CC vs. WARDING RIFT= melee range Blind in a narrow forward facing cone

For paying both energy and recharge, Revenants get less total block / second base, and drastically less block / second when traited. The fact that there is a rollover 3/4 second evade + CC competing with a melee range blind in a forward facing cone is the icing on the cake. Revenant weapon skills have been gutted, while other classes have received bloat and simply deal with recharge to manage. Revenant also receives no recharge bonuses anywhere, which is a significant penalty compared to other classes.

Original design was for the class not to have CDs at all, but I see where you’re going with your point and completely agree with it. Besides that, some skills needed a CD attached to prevent spamming. However, not the CDs we have now. Anyways, have a thumbs up from me.

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@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:Revenants were designed to receive reduced recharge or additional effects on skills as compensation for dual gating — having both recharge and energy to manage. Compare Counterattack and Warding Rift to see just how little this applies now.

Comparing competitive numbers:
  • Primary effect— COUNTERATTACK= 3 seconds block / 25 seconds (20 when traited) recharge vs. WARDING RIFT= 2 seconds block / 20 seconds recharge + 10 energy
  • Secondary effect—COUNTERATTACK= 3/4 second evade + CC vs. WARDING RIFT= melee range Blind in a narrow forward facing cone

For paying both energy and recharge, Revenants get less total block / second base, and drastically less block / second when traited. The fact that there is a rollover 3/4 second evade + CC competing with a melee range blind in a forward facing cone is the icing on the cake. Revenant weapon skills have been gutted, while other classes have received bloat and simply deal with recharge to manage. Revenant also receives no recharge bonuses anywhere, which is a significant penalty compared to other classes.

Original design was for the class not to have CDs at all, but I see where you’re going with your point and completely agree with it. Besides that, some skills needed a CD attached to prevent spamming. However, not the CDs we have now. Anyways, have a thumbs up from me.

The skill were only meant to have short CD to avoid spamming.

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914 hours on Revenant, and I figure about 750hrs of them spent as Hammer Herald in WvW; since the patch, my Rev has been exclusively PvE as Alacrigade for T4 fractals.

In WvW I'm playing Burn DH (until that is nerfed), still play Medi-Scrapper and have started playing Power DPS Scrapper which has been fun and interesting.

All ANET has to do is remove the wind up on Staff 5 (which sucks equally in PvE btw - missed CC'ing a Caff Skritt the other day) and return the 4sec cooldown to CoR but with lower damage, and I would happily go back to Hammer Rev, and judging by the fact I might see 1-2 Hammer Revs in an enemy zerg, I'm not alone in this.

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I think the important take away is that Revenant no longer appears to receive much benefit from having both energy costs and recharge on many skills. After years of nerfs, all of our skills are largely balanced with other classes in regards to effects / recharge (and often worse), but yet we still pay energy.

On top of this, we don’t get access to -20% recharge traits anywhere, and this causes some massive disparity like in the example I gave above.

After the most recent patch, the problems this causes have become more glaring. The Revenant is now massively penalized for breaking stuns, which is due to the removal of Empty Vessel and Shiro’s energy increase. Every time you break a stun, assuming you even have enough energy to do such, you often remove the ability to use the majority of your weapon skills for a counter attack. I find myself forced into eating many CCs for full duration because the cost of breaking a stun is simple math: 2 seconds of CC versus 8 seconds of energy.

We are now the only class in the game where each and every CC is guaranteed to remove counter pressure regardless of Stunbreak usage, with the one exception being Condi Malyx. This is the main reason you see this spec being used, IMO.

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@Julius Seizure.4985 said:I think the important take away is that Revenant no longer appears to receive much benefit from having both energy costs and recharge on many skills. After years of nerfs, all of our skills are largely balanced with other classes in regards to effects / recharge (and often worse), but yet we still pay energy.

On top of this, we don’t get access to -20% recharge traits anywhere, and this causes some massive disparity like in the example I gave above.

After the most recent patch, the problems this causes have become more glaring. The Revenant is now massively penalized for breaking stuns, which is due to the removal of Empty Vessel and Shiro’s energy increase. Every time you break a stun, assuming you even have enough energy to do such, you often remove the ability to use the majority of your weapon skills for a counter attack. I find myself forced into eating many CCs for full duration because the cost of breaking a stun is simple math: 2 seconds of CC versus 8 seconds of energy.

We are now the only class in the game where each and every CC is guaranteed to remove counter pressure regardless of Stunbreak usage, with the one exception being Condi Malyx. This is the main reason you see this spec being used, IMO.

Im pretty sure this was intended, A-net since the introduction of revenant has tried to homogenize us and kind of remove us from play. Sure we can do raids now (Not that I care or bother.) but we have lost so much of ourselves in the process, they could remove us tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference which I believe is the point they likely regret the introduction of this class. (Despite it being what brought me, and many others back to the fold.)

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@Infusion.7149 said:You know what the sad thing is? Revenant should be the easiest to balance since all utilities are locked. There's no theory crafting extremely broken builds , unless something is outright buggy or carried by stats (trailblazer).

It should be, you're correct. But a-net seems set on homogenization right now; Note every major class change has brought the three weights and their respective classes closer together, mediums have much of the same tools and playstyles. The heavies are being given the same treatment, this effects rev significantly worse due to their limited skills and abilities. Homogenization is what makes games un-fun~

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After playing several ATs and a bunch of conquest I think Power Rev is in a good spot. Most of the top revenant players I've been seeing are still playing Power Herald, NOT Condi Herald and overall still seeing mostly power builds and power comps. There are some timing and energy changes to adjust to since the patch, but overall I've been feeling successful with Power Herald as well as Condi Herald. They're just very different builds for very different uses and I don't think the disparity between them (in the overarching meta) is as great as some of this thread makes it out to be.

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@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:After playing several ATs and a bunch of conquest I think Power Rev is in a good spot. Most of the top revenant players I've been seeing are still playing Power Herald, NOT Condi Herald and overall still seeing mostly power builds and power comps. There are some timing and energy changes to adjust to since the patch, but overall I've been feeling successful with Power Herald as well as Condi Herald. They're just very different builds for very different uses and I don't think the disparity between them (in the overarching meta) is as great as some of this thread makes it out to be.

Or the power heralds are the people like me who only play power for the free games against teams far below my team's skill level because it is the funner build for me. Then when we face an actually tough game I swap right over to condi because it is simply superior for winning games.

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Such a potential and such a majestic failure. For me condi is boring and unskillful (personal opinion). Some power builds were really fun but they got screwed hard. I was one of the few people that used ventari while roaming but after the patch it also got a heavy nerf (and it needed a real buff/rework).

Rev is like a quirky warrior now. If I wanted to play a profession like warrior, I would play warrior.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

You're assuming that shortbow renegade can't be power. Shortbow taken as a whole is really more hybrid than condi, and it has both means of quickly building up Battle Scars stacks (skill 5, spirits) and consuming them (skills 2 and 3).

Correct, but that's a Renegade build. You can play it condi, hybrid or power, but despite your stats of choice Is very different from the power Herald or power core builds which were useful in the past. At open world, non-Renegade power builds are now subpar because mele<ranged when there's a ton of players farming the content and hammer=bad at the current time. My point was only to remark that even in PvE power Rev is not that hot anymore, outside instanced content. But for solo condi Rev is the GOAT.

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