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The real issue balance is facing, A plea for the community to come together.


Thornwolf.9721

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I've been here the past few weeks watching what has transpired and I have to say, if this was a case study it would be a heck of a book on A-nets end. Everyone is screaming for nerfs and when someone offers a constructive way to fix an issue, to remove an issue while not gutting the class it gets poo pooed into oblivion. No one is willing to compromise and no one is willing to give. "My class can't possibly be the issue, there is no way. GiT GuD sCrUb!" When in reality all the classes have a fundamental if not over-arcing issue that is plaguing it and its either un-healthy for its opponents or worse yet is it is unhealthy for the players who love that class.

  1. Thieves: They need either mobility, utility or damage just flat out nerfed. They are too front-loaded and even after the big balance patch they have been un-hindered, Note I don't hate thief I just feel it needs to not have so many tools. (This was the same argument A-net has used in pruning the Rev of its tools, it was too loaded. I feel all classes should be held to this if that is the case.)
  2. Warriors: Have a TON of broke traits, and some of their skills and weapons even have been dunked on but it leaves them in this odd place of feeling kinda... meh.
  3. Guardians: Are still an issue, way too many forms of sustain for the kind of damage they can dish out. Something has to give, you either do insane damage or you have insane sustain you should not be able to build both and just blow people up. (Not as bad as it once was, but still pretty annoying.)
  4. Rev: Power rev feels terrible and is trash in anything but Raids, like everyone wanted. Now condi Rev is on a rampage and you really only need to nerf or remove rune of tormenting, this solves a good chunk of their sustain. True nature on mallyx could use a nerf, but don't make it complete trash as condi-rev is really the only way to play anymore if you don't want to be at an extreme-disadvantage.
  5. Necromancers: Im not sure where to begin but they seem a little over the top right now, I don't know where its coming from but I dont want them to not be relevant or be terrible. They do need to be toned down slightly NOT a lot but enough to make it so they can't just perma-shroud or keep their sustain to insane levels.
  6. Elementalists: Tempest seems strong, I have yet to really be annoyed by one so.... I mean keep doing you? I don't know don't play or see many of the class.
  7. Engineer: You seem to be in a decent place, dunno might need some buffs if anything.
  8. Messmer: I still feel like portions of your Kit are too loaded, but the way they gutted your core features and basic mechanics leads me to believe they need to restore your dodge and cull some of the overtuned portions of your kit. Make you viable and strong, but don't make you overpowering and honestly flat out REMOVE stealth from this specific class. With your clones, and capabilities (Prior to the balance patch) you were out of control. So bring them mechanically back to where they were, remove stealth and limit clone amounts to like three or four and bam done.
  9. Ranger: Im not gonna slap you... you just got hit again.... I dont play you anymore, and im waiting on the next E-spec because I hate the two you currently have.

All of us need to stop bickering and come together with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and actually help A-net figure this out, or at leas have it out there that we are not all going to hate on each other.. With the way we are pushing class design will become all about homogenization and that will litterally end this game; We need to have our classes be unique and not some cookie-cutter aesthetic of some such dribble like "Rev is just an edgier warrior, and guardian is blue warrior." No. Bad. Stop it. We don't want that please don't push them to do this, can we for ONCE come together as a community and at least preserve portions of our class identities before they are completely gutted from us. As a Power Rev, I feel this on a deep level as I don't enjoy my main anymore and its because the changes over time have made it..... anything but what I loved about it when it came out.

I just want to have fun again, and we can't do that if we constantly scream to get every class BUT our own neutered for the sake of our own petty and childish reasons. We all have been out played. There is always someone better than you out there; So learn and become better and overcome or sit here and complain and not give real feedback, so that in the end nothing will feel cool and everything will be the same.

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It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so damn annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

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@alain.1659 said:Well there are good ideas on profession forums that are not booed into oblivion. Check specific profession forums for good balancing ideas. They are not that frequent but worth checking really.

thats what im saying, so many intuitive and well thought out ideas that get bashed despite them sounding a million times healthier for the game and the profession its aimed at fixing. The dev's might make the game, but that doesn't inherently mean they are qualified or even knowledgeable about what needs to be changed or even have the foresight of changes they make. Those of us who play each class more exclusively have more hands on experiences, We know things including counters, weakness's, strengths, flaws and so much more..

Most of us who care about the game will admit our class is over-tuned, I know condi rev right now is preforming well maybe too well. But that is from interactions from runes depending on what they are that were not changed in the balance patch. I also know that it suffers from CC so if someone is dedicated to CC and focused the rev, they can be shut down efficiently especially on mallyx given how its more lumbering horror than quick blitz.

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:~SNIP~With the way we are pushing class design will become all about homogenization and that will literally end this game; We need to have our classes be unique and not some cookie-cutter aesthetic of some such dribble like "Rev is just an edgier warrior, and guardian is blue warrior." No. Bad. Stop it. We don't want that please don't push them to do this, can we for ONCE come together as a community and at least preserve portions of our class identities before they are completely gutted from us.

~SNIP~

I selected one section for you to read what you wrote again...that's what they want, they don't want unique classes, then anyone can play anything and each class can do everything...that was the original intent, there wasn't supposed to be any specialization, yet people screamed for it and they came out with E-specs.

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@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

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@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:~SNIP~With the way we are pushing
class design will become all about homogenization
and that will literally end this game; We need to have our classes be unique and not some cookie-cutter aesthetic of some such dribble like "Rev is just an edgier warrior, and guardian is blue warrior." No. Bad. Stop it. We don't want that please don't push them to do this, can we for ONCE come together as a community and at least preserve portions of our class identities before they are completely gutted from us.

~SNIP~

I selected one section for you to read what you wrote again...that's what they want, they don't want unique classes, then anyone can play anything and each class can do everything...that was the original intent, there wasn't supposed to be any specialization, yet people screamed for it and they came out with E-specs.

I dont want that original intent, I want unique depth for each classes. The reason core guild wars 2 failed so astronomically about a month or two in was the end game was a joke and everything felt like it was the same crap. I know I got bored and did not return until heart of thorns; Due to the revenant and elite specializations and what I want them to do is double down on making each class unique maybe make a "Soft" trinity where specific classes fill specific role types better than others but STILL have the option to be semi-optimal in other roles should they choose too.

Enough of this re-inventing the wheel which was not broken but could of been expanded upon and made better, You moved away from what made MMO's capable of being succesful and tried so hard to make it so "No one needs healers, tanks and so on." but then you realized it was SUPER hard to make engaging content because the game from the ground up could not support that level of content or interactions, it became strictly a "Everyone is dps, go zerk or go home" and that was what they intended to remove and beat back. And to this day in most players eyes that has never change and WILL never change unless you start doubling down on the core, of what makes each profession unique and special. I enjoy class fantasy.... WoW learned the hard way that the removal of that depth, that fantasy and flushed out nature of classes hurt the game astronomically. And now what are they doing? They are going back and taking the classes according to them, back to a time where they were unique and each spec for them felt like a different way to play sure. But a warlock was a warlock, a mage was a mage and they felt 100% different from one another~

Each class should not feel remotely close to another, sure it takes vision and it takes work~ But isn't that the point of making this a career? Passion ..... and the desire to carve your name into the primordial ooze we call time in some form or another?

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@Drennon.7190 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

It that's how they're designed to play then people have no right to be complaining about Rangers 1shotting or Necro's being nearly impossible to kill. :P

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@kharmin.7683 said:Curious as to why this is in the General Discussion forum and not the Professions forum.

because its not about one single profession and is more about us as a community demanding classes be gutted, and homogenized because people can't accept their own responsibility. And that we as a community need to come together and be more helpful to the devs; So our game can get better rather then making them sift through the vitriol of people hating on a class because its not one they play.

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@Drennon.7190 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being crap at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

Stealth alone is all.I have no issues with thieves mobility or their damage, it's their abundance of cheap stealth mechanic that makes me hate fighting them because there is very little counter to it.It leaves thives with an almost unique ability to be annoying trolls that are capable of harassing multiple players with very little risk.

In PvE it's fine but in competitive stealth shoud come with restrictions.. for starters not being able to use it without some kind of timed CD.. Stealthed ambuses dealing more damage yeah fine.. but thieves should suffer a several second reveal debuff for it.

By all means increase stealth duration hell even mobility too and give theives the ability to scout exceptionally well while invisible etc.. but if they choose to engage an enemy they should not be able to cheese fights by abusing stealth the way they currently can.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

Stealth alone is all.I have no issues with thieves mobility or their damage, it's their abundance of cheap stealth mechanic that makes me hate fighting them because there is very little counter to it.It leaves thives with an almost unique ability to be annoying trolls that are capable of harassing multiple players with very little risk.

In PvE it's fine but in competitive stealth shoud come with restrictions.. for starters not being able to use it without some kind of timed CD.. Stealthed ambuses dealing more damage yeah fine.. but thieves should suffer a several second reveal debuff for it.

By all means increase stealth duration hell even mobility too and give theives the ability to scout exceptionally well while invisible etc.. but if they choose to engage an enemy they should not be able to cheese fights by abusing stealth the way they currently can.

All I said is they need to choose one. I don't feel them having mobility and the POTENTIAL for stealth is fair, I feel that one subsequently makes the other OP so one has be to be toned back to make room. I don't want them to be trash, I hate when people assume that because I don't agree with the design they've been given because for one it makes it hard to make E-specs and two it makes it difficult to balance.

You want stronger damage and presence? Well sacrifice a bit of stealth or mobility and I could justify it....

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

Stealth alone is all.I have no issues with thieves mobility or their damage, it's their abundance of cheap stealth mechanic that makes me hate fighting them because there is very little counter to it.It leaves thives with an almost unique ability to be annoying trolls that are capable of harassing multiple players with very little risk.

In PvE it's fine but in competitive stealth shoud come with restrictions.. for starters not being able to use it without some kind of timed CD.. Stealthed ambuses dealing more damage yeah fine.. but thieves should suffer a several second reveal debuff for it.

By all means increase stealth duration hell even mobility too and give theives the ability to scout exceptionally well while invisible etc.. but if they choose to engage an enemy they should not be able to cheese fights by abusing stealth the way they currently can.

All I said is they need to choose one. I don't feel them having mobility and the POTENTIAL for stealth is fair, I feel that one subsequently makes the other OP so one has be to be toned back to make room. I don't want them to be trash, I hate when people assume that because I don't agree with the design they've been given because for one it makes it hard to make E-specs and two it makes it difficult to balance.

You want stronger damage and presence? Well sacrifice a bit of stealth or mobility and I could justify it....

Trust me most thief's would love to give up some stealth to get some of their general damage back.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

Stealth alone is all.I have no issues with thieves mobility or their damage, it's their abundance of cheap stealth mechanic that makes me hate fighting them because there is very little counter to it.It leaves thives with an almost unique ability to be annoying trolls that are capable of harassing multiple players with very little risk.

In PvE it's fine but in competitive stealth shoud come with restrictions.. for starters not being able to use it without some kind of timed CD.. Stealthed ambuses dealing more damage yeah fine.. but thieves should suffer a several second reveal debuff for it.

By all means increase stealth duration hell even mobility too and give theives the ability to scout exceptionally well while invisible etc.. but if they choose to engage an enemy they should not be able to cheese fights by abusing stealth the way they currently can.

All I said is they need to choose one. I don't feel them having mobility and the POTENTIAL for stealth is fair, I feel that one subsequently makes the other OP so one has be to be toned back to make room. I don't want them to be trash, I hate when people assume that because I don't agree with the design they've been given because for one it makes it hard to make E-specs and two it makes it difficult to balance.

You want stronger damage and presence? Well sacrifice a bit of stealth or mobility and I could justify it....

I think you misunderstood my response, I'm in agreement with you that they need toning down but I think the problem lies exclusively with stealth as a mechanic rather than any other aspects of the thief class.By all rights thieves should be the most mobile class in the game and they should have the ability to play evade.They should be exceptionally good at duels and ambush tactics but not through heavy abuse of stealth which is how they've always been in Gw2.

If a thief ambushes you from stealth they should get the obvious advantage, but if that table is turned the thief should be open to punishment and not have the ability to just poof themselves invisible and run away over and over again until they eventually win because their victim has no ability to counter the stealth.Thief should be rewarded for picking their ambush targets and punished for poor judgement in that regard.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:It's been a while but today I got reminded of exactly why I hate playing against thieves.

Deadeye ambush.. pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!several seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!few more seconds later pew pew pew STEALTH!!

Oh and this was one of several encounters with thieves using the same tactic on multiple different builds.. pop in, few hits, run away invisible before taking damage.It's so kitten annoying and cheap and there is far too little counter to this kind of troll playstyle.. specially when they have so much mobility and can even fast stomp a downed player and run away again.. invisible.. and nobody can do anything about it.

So thieves playing the way they are designed to play?

I love op posters like this lmao literally in first few sentences I already kno thier completely clueless. Thiefs need damage nerfed more, my dp sets up 3.5k backstabs on power builds and 250-350 dagger autos and sometimes rarely breakes1k on last auto chain hit, yeah nerf the damage lol. Then less mobility cuz u kno that's why it's got 11k base hp and low toughness cuz it's got great mobility like all rogue classes do so let's also nerf mobility. Aka high I'm op and pretending to care and be less bias than other players, that said I dislike thief and want it unuseable. Here's a list of others as well. These changes would force them even more into the already lame +1 decap role while making them even better in raids and zergs, u kno being kitten at the few things it's good at lmao.

Like seriously.

I don't hate thieves I just think they have a lot of loaded stuff in their kit that could use some toning back? I feel the same way about all the classes, I just want them to nerf what is broken and NOT remove what makes them unique and different from one another.

Stealth alone is all.I have no issues with thieves mobility or their damage, it's their abundance of cheap stealth mechanic that makes me hate fighting them because there is very little counter to it.It leaves thives with an almost unique ability to be annoying trolls that are capable of harassing multiple players with very little risk.

In PvE it's fine but in competitive stealth shoud come with restrictions.. for starters not being able to use it without some kind of timed CD.. Stealthed ambuses dealing more damage yeah fine.. but thieves should suffer a several second reveal debuff for it.

By all means increase stealth duration hell even mobility too and give theives the ability to scout exceptionally well while invisible etc.. but if they choose to engage an enemy they should not be able to cheese fights by abusing stealth the way they currently can.

All I said is they need to choose one. I don't feel them having mobility and the POTENTIAL for stealth is fair, I feel that one subsequently makes the other OP so one has be to be toned back to make room. I don't want them to be trash, I hate when people assume that because I don't agree with the design they've been given because for one it makes it hard to make E-specs and two it makes it difficult to balance.

You want stronger damage and presence? Well sacrifice a bit of stealth or mobility and I could justify it....

Trust me most thief's would love to give up some stealth to get some of their general damage back.

how about not have neither and keep their mobility?

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It's something I've been saying for a while... people claiming that something is OP really should put their money where their mouth is and play it if it's "easy wins". So many times I see a post and think "you don't actually play the profession and this is just sour grapes, isn't it?" It's a principle I generally try to follow, and more often than not it turns out to be a lot harder than it feels like when they're pulling it on you, or there's some counter to it that you don't see because the build you're playing is one that gets countered by them. There have been cases where I've gone "yep, this feels OP when playing it, I should not be having this level of success with a build I've only just started using", but that's a distinct minority.

If you haven't done so... then sure, you can say that it's annoying to play as, but can you really say it's OP? You rarely figure out what the weaknesses of something is until you try it yourself. Sure, you might have some idea of what works on them and what doesn't, but when you haven't played something yourself, you tend to get an inflated idea of its strengths when they're coming at you, while missing its weaknesses that you either haven't figured out yet, or haven't got a build that can exploit them.

If everyone gets obsessed with wanting to buff their own profession and nerf everything else, sooner or later everything's going to get nerfed to death, because any given profession is always going to have more people calling for nerfs than defending it. Which is... a kind of balance, I guess, but a competition to push everyone else to the bottom probably won't be satisfying to anyone in as it approaches its (il)logical final conclusion.

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:~SNIP~With the way we are pushing
class design will become all about homogenization
and that will literally end this game; We need to have our classes be unique and not some cookie-cutter aesthetic of some such dribble like "Rev is just an edgier warrior, and guardian is blue warrior." No. Bad. Stop it. We don't want that please don't push them to do this, can we for ONCE come together as a community and at least preserve portions of our class identities before they are completely gutted from us.

~SNIP~

I selected one section for you to read what you wrote again...that's what they want, they don't want unique classes, then anyone can play anything and each class can do everything...that was the original intent, there wasn't supposed to be any specialization, yet people screamed for it and they came out with E-specs.

That's... a bit of a misrepresentation of what the intent was. The intent was that every profession could fulfill every role, but they did so in different ways and had different playstyles. YMMV on how well they succeeded on either count (and the PvE balance at the time was basically "all you need is power DPS"), but a berzerker guardian definitely had a different playstyle to a berserker warrior, which was very different to a berzerker thief, or a berzerker elementalist, or berzerker mesmer, or whatever.

Even now, you can still see it in the healing specialisations. Firebrand, renegade, druid, tempest, and scourge can all work as healers, and I may be missing some... but they all do their healing in different ways. Which unfortunately does present the potential for some to be objectively better than others for specific content, because of how the different modes of healing interact with mechanics, but that's probably something that can't really be helped.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Curious as to why this is in the General Discussion forum and not the Professions forum.

because its not about one single profession and is more about us as a community demanding classes be gutted, and homogenized because people can't accept their own responsibility. And that we as a community need to come together and be more helpful to the devs; So our game can get better rather then making them sift through the vitriol of people hating on a class because its not one they play.

While that may have been the intention (and a good one, I might add), it doesn't appear that the thread has maintained that focus. The Professions main forum is for all professions, not individual ones -- that's what the sub-forums are for. As such, I just didn't understand why this would have been considered a "general" topic since it does seem to be a discussion of professions. /shrug

Still, I wish the community luck in this endeavor. From what I've read throughout the forums, I'm not sure that you will attain the end result that you intend.

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Thieves need cooldowns. End of story.They were designed with proper execution and planning in mind when given Initiative, but what we got in the end was extreme frontloading of skills to the point that other Professions cannot hope to keep up.

Thief vs other Professions is just like a guy who is playing a Card game, except instead of playing a set amount of cards per turn, he straight up combos his whole deck in the first turn.

Some might call this broken, or cheating even.

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