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Dragon replacement is stupid, Aurene is on the edge of being a Sue


Slowpokeking.8720

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If they let her take all kinds of magic to stay as the "good dragon".

Seriously I think Anet giving "you can't kill more dragon" is stupid, it simply put the player in a very strange corner, you have to kill the evil dragon and find replacement, which could result in even worst plot. "kill the dragon and get a replacement" plot could easily backfire.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Do you actually pay attention to the story and essential elements? What is so important about dragons for the world? What would be a better story?... Like, you want all dragons to be bad and we must kill dragons as the super story plot?

They were evil and world consuming monsters when they were designed. It's a faceslap if you try to retcon them in the middle of the story.

I don't see "replace every dragon" is better than "kill every dragon". Zhaitan's plot was much better than Kralkatorrik's other than the last fight.

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Also Aurene's plot worked for now because her plot has the long setup since LWS2 and Glint's connection. Still her current status would be very difficult to handle.

I don't see how this plot route could be repeated for the other dragons and if you want Aurene to take everything it's gonna turn her into a super sue/plot device.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Do you actually pay attention to the story and essential elements? What is so important about dragons for the world? What would be a better story?... Like, you want all dragons to be bad and we must kill dragons as the super story plot?

They were evil and world consuming monsters when they were designed. It's a faceslap if you try to retcon them in the middle of the story.

I don't see "replace every dragon" is better than "kill every dragon". Zhaitan's plot was much better than Kralkatorrik's other than the last fight.

Right, at the time humanoids may have known the dragons to be the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, but then the humanoid races learned that the dragons were a part of the natural order and part of the magic fabric of the world... So plot twist off of the old, and unoriginal,1 dimensional "monsters bad, kill minsters" stories and themes.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Right, at the time humanoids may have known the dragons to be the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, but then the humanoid races learned that the dragons were a part of the natural order and part of the magic fabric of the world... So plot twist off of the old, and unoriginal,1 dimensional "monsters bad, kill minsters" stories and themes.

I'm not talking about humanoids, it's the design of dragons by Anet before LWS3. Did you even see the end of EotN how did they describe the Elder Dragons?

The dragons are the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, they kill all the living things, and they don't restore nature Their corruption has nothing to do with natural order. They simply want to consume all lives and magic. All of these made them the big bad.

Even now, the dragons are still no different, they are just very bad. The only difference is that you cannot kill them without replacement.

Unless they do a huge retcon, that's how the dragons are. "Monster bad, but you can't kill them, has to find replacement" conflicting plot is much worse actually.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Right, at the time humanoids may have known the dragons to be the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, but then the humanoid races learned that the dragons were a part of the natural order and part of the magic fabric of the world... So plot twist off of the old, and unoriginal,1 dimensional "monsters bad, kill minsters" stories and themes.

I'm not talking about humanoids, it's the design of dragons by Anet before LWS3. Did you even see the end of EotN how did they describe the Elder Dragons?

The dragons are the ultimate evil that needs to be eradicated, they kill all the living things, and they don't restore nature Their corruption has nothing to do with natural order. They simply want to consume all lives and magic. All of these made them the big bad.

Even now, the dragons are still no different, they are just very bad. The only difference is that you cannot kill them without replacement.

Unless they do a huge retcon, that's how the dragons are. "Monster bad, but you can't kill them, has to find replacement" conflicting plot is much worse actually.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon

"Dragons are powerful creatures which come in many forms and live across Tyria. They are reptilian beasts connected to various elements, most commonly fire. Unrelated to the ancient Elder Dragons bound to the All"... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

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@"Swagger.1459" said:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon

"Dragons are powerful creatures which come in many forms and live across Tyria. They are reptilian beasts connected to various elements, most commonly fire. Unrelated to the ancient Elder Dragons bound to the All"... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

We are talking about the Elder Dragons. They were created to be the big bad.

I don't disagree to add more character development, but that doesn't mean you have to add the "you can't kill them" stupid plot. Actually it added nothing to the dragons other than killing them=blow up the world.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:

"Dragons are powerful creatures which come in many forms and live across Tyria. They are reptilian beasts connected to various elements, most commonly fire. Unrelated to the ancient Elder Dragons bound to the All"...

We are talking about the Elder Dragons. They were created to be the big bad.

I don't disagree to add more character development, but that doesn't mean you have to add the "you can't kill them" stupid plot. Actually it added nothing to the dragons other than killing them=blow up the world.

Actually, it added a lot of depth and creativity to the world and story, but you don't seem to appreciate it. I'm sure you'd prefer the story to revolve around some form of the typical "knight in shining armor that slays all dragons because they are bad" plot that we've seen in stories a thousand times over.

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@"Slowpokeking.8720"

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

"The Elder Dragons are primordial creatures dating back before the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and long before the arrival of the gods in Tyria."

Even in Guild Wars the elder dragons weren't just some toss in "bad" monsters. They were/are "primordial creatures" on this planet, long before any humanoid races were walking around.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

"The Eternal Alchemy is the common deistic ideology of the Asuran view on the world, the Mists, and all life. The belief states that all things and events are part of a greater scheme of existence and that even the Human Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other deities are a part of this grand scheme as mere cogs, albeit larger ones. Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

"The All, also referred to as the Antikytheria, is a symbolic representation of the world of Tyria as a machine with various moving parts. Those who have seen it describe it synonymously with the Eternal Alchemy.

The All is depicted as a grand mechanism moving around a central body. Some, including Scarlet Briar and the Pact Commander, have interpreted this central body to be the Pale Tree,[1][4] although it is more commonly interpreted to be Tyria itself.[3] Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms), existing in primal symbiosis."

The current story fits perfectly with the lore and legends...

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Actually, it added a lot of depth and creativity to the world and story, but you don't seem to appreciate it. I'm sure you'd prefer the story to revolve around some form of the typical "knight in shining armor that slays all dragons because they are bad" plot that we've seen in stories a thousand times over.

It added nothing other than a contradicted motive against the heroes.

Right now the plot is "knight in shining armor that slays dragons because they are bad and let the good dragon get power". The story is worse than before because such plot could get bored quicker than the old forumla.

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@Swagger.1459 said:@"Slowpokeking.8720"

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

"The Elder Dragons are primordial creatures dating back before the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and long before the arrival of the gods in Tyria."

Even in Guild Wars the elder dragons weren't just some toss in "bad" monsters. They were/are "primordial creatures" on this planet, long before any humanoid races were walking around.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

"The Eternal Alchemy is the common deistic ideology of the Asuran view on the world, the Mists, and all life. The belief states that all things and events are part of a greater scheme of existence and that even the Human Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other deities are a part of this grand scheme as mere cogs, albeit larger ones. Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

"The All, also referred to as the Antikytheria, is a symbolic representation of the world of Tyria as a machine with various moving parts. Those who have seen it describe it synonymously with the Eternal Alchemy.

The All is depicted as a grand mechanism moving around a central body. Some, including Scarlet Briar and the Pact Commander, have interpreted this central body to be the Pale Tree,[1][4] although it is more commonly interpreted to be Tyria itself.[3] Orbiting this central body are six large bodies (interpreted as the Elder Dragons or spirit realms), existing in primal symbiosis."

The current story fits perfectly with the lore and legends...

None of this add anything to the plot. The dragons are still bad, other than if you kill them the world will explode there is nothing new.

It's like SC2 whitewash Overmind to fight some bigger bad, it didn't add anything to the story other than making it worse..

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I know, if you prefer the " I am hero, must kill dragons" then you may not like this direction. However, some of us actually appreciate the unique story and different angle with dragons. And the fact that the story has us as part of bigger, and super important, things happening around them, much like we as humans are today part of big things, and not the big things.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:I know, if you prefer the " I am hero, must kill dragons" then you may not like this direction. However, some of us actually appreciate the unique story and different angle with dragons. And the fact that the story has us as part of bigger, and super important, things happening around them, much like we as humans are today part of big things, and not the big things.

Wake up, right now it's still " I am hero, must kill dragons", nothing changed other than you have to let another dragon take the replacement.

What different angle with dragons? All the Elder Dragons other than Aurene are still big bad who wanted to consume living and magic. Including Kralkatorrik, some ration deep inside him doesn't change anything he had done.

You still need to kill them. Nothing has changed other than introducing some new dragons to do the replacement. And these dragons could easily become Mary Sues and very hard to handle after their replacement plot is done.

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@Swagger.1459 said:Yeah? How would you have made the story better?

I'm not saying all the dragons must be bad in all stories, but GW2 or since GW1 EotN has already made them as the big bad by trying to consume everything and corrupt everything they could.

Since Anet have settled the tone, trying to turn it around simply for plot twist is not going to do anything good.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Yeah? How would you have made the story better?

I'm not saying all the dragons must be bad in all stories, but GW2 or since GW1 EotN has already made them as the big bad by trying to consume everything and corrupt everything they could.

Since Anet have settled the tone, trying to turn it around simply for plot twist is not going to do anything good.

That doesn't answer how you would have made the story better... The dragons were obviously part of tyria before humanoids, so they have the right to be here. Maybe the reason for tyria is because of these creatures... They also have ties to the very make-up of the world and magics. So what do you do instead?

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@"Swagger.1459" said:That doesn't answer how you would have made the story better... The dragons were obviously part of tyria before humanoids, so they have the right to be here. Maybe the reason for tyria is because of these creatures... They also have ties to the very make-up of the world and magics. So what do you do instead?

I simply would NOT try to make it biting its own tail. Not by inserting "you kill more dragon the world will explode" dumb plot.

It doesn't mean they have the rights to destroy and corrupt everything they have seen. The dragons don't just corrupt and kill humanoids, they corrupt nearly everything, including animals, plants or even terrains of their domain.

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This is also a major reason that why the dragons are not good at "wiping out and reset the world" tool or part of the nature cycle to not kill.

  1. They are not just against civilization, they are against all living, even plants and elementals.
  2. They don't just destroy, they corrupt the place and creatures into a unnatural state and make part of the world their domain.

They were designed to be world level threat, trying to twist it in middle of the story would only break the consistency.

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@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:This is also a major reason that why the dragons are not good at "wiping out and reset the world" tool or part of the nature cycle to not kill.

  1. They are not just against civilization, they are against all living, even plants and elementals.
  2. They don't just destroy, they corrupt the place and creatures into a unnatural state and make part of the world their domain.

They were designed to be world level threat, trying to twist it in middle of the story would only break the consistency.

Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creatures, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like. You want 1 dimensional "dragon bad, kill dragon" as your consistency, but some are tired of it.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creature, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like.

Yeah they are the main villains, that's a huge role.

They are still expandable, you just need another replacement for them. They are designed that way to against all livings and all good stuff, so it's not a good idea to change it midstory. It's even easier to get tired with replacement and the replacement story isn't really amazing. We already saw it once in GW1 Nightfall.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Dragons are "primordial creatures" and more important than you think they are in this story. I know you want them to be expendable creature, but they are not. You may not appreciate the story, but it's refreshing considering most dragon related stories are the ones you like.

Yeah they are the main villains, that's a huge role.

They are still expandable, you just need another replacement for them. They are designed that way to against all livings and all good stuff, so it's not a good idea to change it midstory. It's even easier to get tired with replacement and the replacement story isn't really amazing. We already saw it once in GW1 Nightfall.

And those villains are the original creatures of the planet. And without those villians for the balance of nature and magics it all goes poof... That in itself is a compelling and interesting story to tell and go through of "what do you do?" that you don't consider or appreciate. You just think it's "stupid", because you can't see beyond your "good guy kill bad guy" story without variation... Not very imaginative of you.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:And those villains are the original creatures of the planet. And without those villians for the balance of nature and magics it all goes poof... That in itself is a compelling and interesting story to tell and go through of "what do you do?" that you don't consider or appreciate. You just think it's "stupid", because you can't see beyond your "good guy kill bad guy" story without variation... Not very imaginative of you.

So what? It doesn't mean they have any rights to kill others.

They are not balancing, they are abusing their power to corrupt everything freaking thing they met. Those corrupted domain like the dragonbrand had nothing to do with nature at all. Not to say hordes of Risen zombies being animated from dead.

Anet simply insert this into PoF to give us a reason stop Balathazar from killing them. What do we do? We still kill the dragons, only with a replacement, understand it. It's still "good guy kill bad guy" other than "you need a good guy as replacment" and "Those corruption against all livings are natural balance" garbage.

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Sue how?Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

My only gripe is that she grew too fast during Season 4 but I guess that can't be helped since the Devs already built Kralk up to be such a huge threat, but even so she didn't "1v1 Kralk", she had the entire Pact hammering Kralk from the outside while she, the Commander and Co. went for the heart.

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