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Dragon replacement is stupid, Aurene is on the edge of being a Sue


Slowpokeking.8720

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@"Yasai.3549" said:Sue how?Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

Legendary world threats. Like we don't need some other dragons to continue Zhaitan's campaign of spreading death.

And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

And now she's Elder Dragon, what are you gong to do then. Also she could use all other magic without having trouble, not even the legendary Kralkatorrik could do it with out huge pain and losing mind.

More importantly, are you going to introduce more dragons like her to be the replacement of the remaining dragons? Because it's gonna easily become repetitive. Nor do they have the setup like her.

Or bind all the magic to Aurene to make her a super Sue?

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@"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

Or bind all the magic to Aurene to make her a super Sue?

A sue only becomes a sue when they are posed with challenges and effortlessly overcomes them without any character growth.

Aurene has had some growth, and she didn't effortlessly overcome every single obstacle, and she is also choosing to sit out of the upcoming one due to how Elder Dragons are being viewed and wished not to make a negative impact with her presence.

Just because she holds so much power doesn't mean she is a sue.And Jormag may be stronger than her, does that make Jormag a sue? Does that make Balthazar a sue? Does this make every single one of the non present gods a sue?

Power =/= sueDealing with problems all ezpz with no effort = a sue.

Aurene could have the power of the entire universe but if she doesn't just shoo da woop all her troubles away, I won't count her as a sue.What would be a real sue writing was if devs wrote Aurene to be like "Ill deal with everything guys, sit back"

  • magically convinces Bangar to back down
  • magically 1 shots Jormag
  • magically 1 shots Primordious
  • magically brings back all the dead characters that players miss
  • magically gives birth to all the babies in the world so that mothers don't have to feel pain
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@Yasai.3549 said:A sue only becomes a sue when they are posed with challenges and effortlessly overcomes them without any character growth.

Or they simply have super advantage like Aurene without trouble with different magic.

Aurene has had some growth, and she didn't effortlessly overcome every single obstacle, and she is also choosing to sit out of the upcoming one due to how Elder Dragons are being viewed and wished not to make a negative impact with her presence.

Just because she holds so much power doesn't mean she is a sue.

But she still have huge advantage even compare to other Elder Dragons. She didn't even have the weakness Kralkatorrik had.

And Jormag may be stronger than her, does that make Jormag a sue? Does that make Balthazar a sue? Does this make every single one of the non present gods a sue?

Power =/= sueDealing with problems all ezpz with no effort = a sue.

Too much good setting of power without enough backfire does make a character Sue. Especially when others are far behind you.Balthazar and Jormag are both foes, they are big bad villains to pose threat for us to defeat, and both of them have weakness. But Aurene is on our side and got no weakness, she could even come back to life with a huge blast on the face by Kralkatorrik without much injury.

Aurene doesn't have problem with different magic, and she could absorb a big Elder Dragon's power without paying any debt, how is it not Sueish? Even if it's not, she will be when it happens more than once.

Aurene could have the power of the entire universe but if she doesn't just shoo da woop all her troubles away, I won't count her as a sue.

That's going to be huge Sue if there is no burden of her power, especially compare to the mighty Elder Dragons.

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So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

However I don't want to see Aurine become this Sue as you said who can replace them all.We've 3 dragons left to kill and kill them we have no choice in the matter, but we also can't kill them because they play a vital role in The All which is the whole reason we went after Balthazar in PoF.

So we have to kill them to save the world but we can't kill them or we'll destroy the world.Add to that there are no more known Scions to use to replace them so atm we're in a pretty tough situation until we can work something out that will allow us to replace them.I really hope Aruine isn't going to just become the answer to this problem either as that would be a really poor story.. much like the whole "I eats da Lich so I no dies" thing which I still dislike as an excuse, specially considering Lich's are almost as absent lore in this franchise as the DSD is

What they are going to do with Jormag is anyones guess atm but I have a feeling it aint dying anytime soon and chances are we might just have to bite the bullet and enter some kind of distrustful truce with it until we deal with that so called "threat on the horizon" that Jormag warned us about and that we would "Need!" it's help against.With expansion 3 confirmed then there's a good possibility that the solution for this threat and maybe even Jormag will be found in Cantha and the next expansion could possibly set us up for 2 Elder Dragon deaths/replacements in the same release.. There were two uncorrupted Dragons over there back in Gw1 which some believe might be candidates for new Elders in Gw2 so who knows.. just gotta wait and see.

Frankly I rather enjoy the idea of showing up in Cantha with 2 Elder Dragons.. bet the Dragon Empire would soil themselves XD

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@"Teratus.2859" said:So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

However I don't want to see Aurine become this Sue as you said who can replace them all.We've 3 dragons left to kill and kill them we have no choice in the matter, but we also can't kill them because they play a vital role in The All which is the whole reason we went after Balthazar in PoF.

So we have to kill them to save the world but we can't kill them or we'll destroy the world.Add to that there are no more known Scions to use to replace them so atm we're in a pretty tough situation until we can work something out that will allow us to replace them.I really hope Aruine isn't going to just become the answer to this problem either as that would be a really poor story.. much like the whole "I eats da Lich so I no dies" thing which I still dislike as an excuse, specially considering Lich's are almost as absent lore in this franchise as the DSD is

What they are going to do with Jormag is anyones guess atm but I have a feeling it aint dying anytime soon and chances are we might just have to bite the bullet and enter some kind of distrustful truce with it until we deal with that so called "threat on the horizon" that Jormag warned us about and that we would "Need!" it's help against.With expansion 3 confirmed then there's a good possibility that the solution for this threat and maybe even Jormag will be found in Cantha and the next expansion could possibly set us up for 2 Elder Dragon deaths/replacements in the same release.. There were two uncorrupted Dragons over there back in Gw1 which some believe might be candidates for new Elders in Gw2 so who knows.. just gotta wait and see.

Frankly I rather enjoy the idea of showing up in Cantha with 2 Elder Dragons.. bet the Dragon Empire would soil themselves XD

Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

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@"Teratus.2859" said:So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

No they are not just raging monsters. Jormag has been a manipulative jerk from the beginning, Zhaitan and Mordremoth are both intelligent as well. Right now they are still pretty much the same other than Kralkatorrik had some ration inside him, but that's all.

And make the dragons more interesting doesn't mean you have to add the "can't kill".

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@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

because, just as OP, he was unable to get beyond the precept of "dragonz bad must kill" ;)

We still kill dragons, just got to find a replacement before that.

The dragons are bad because they have destroyed so much. They want to kill us first.

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The elder dragons as Eldritch beings bound to a cosmic mechanism isn't stupid. It just makes it impossible for the PC to hold the ultimate role. From your comments Slowpokeking, it seems as though that is your actual complaint. We no longer have a reliable, dull, power fantasy that the PC can climb to the ultimate peak. The plot you want is the equivalent to playing wack-a-mole until there are no more moles. I want a story about the whole fucking carnival. We can still kill the bad Elder Dragons, but it will take longer and need more set up. We may even be on a journey to change how the All is configured; we could defeat the evil Elder dragons and ensure the end of Elder beings and the risk they pose. The main difference I can find between the OP's plot preference and what we have is there is less smoke available to blow up the PC's behind with the plot we have.

That being said, Aurene keeps playing chicken with the definition of a Sue. We are told her physiology makes her resistant to magic dissonance but her physiology is also a coincidence. Has the problem always been the lack of crystal dragons? That would be a very weak way to resolve the dilemma of the All. You could make the argument that being raised by mortals changed her physiology but not without making her physiology plastic and less reliable. I don't agree that using Lich magic to explain her resurrection was lore breaking or 'wrong' but it was handled so flippantly that it became Suzy.

I also agree that if we take the All dilemma seriously, then replacing the current Elder dragons with nice Elder dragons or just Nicest Aurene is a weak resolution. The All dilemma describes the trope that power corrupts and absolute/cosmic power corrupts absolutely/cosmically. The All mechanizes this trope, the more magic or power flows through an Elder dragon, the more likely they are to be corrupted. An Elder dragon may not be evil, wanting to kill mortals, but just pathologically fixated on efficient cycling of magic. Mortals just aren't important to them. The All may be completely responsible for their pathological personalities.

I want the All dilemma to make the plot more complex and I want the resolution of the dilemma to be complex enough to offer a genuine resolution. I think the financial crisis of 2008 is a great analogy for the All dilemma. The necessary cycling of magic is the necessary cycling of money. The six sphere All configuration is the too big to fail configuration of financial institutions. Sticking with six spheres but making sure they are filled with nice dragons is a Dodd-Frank approach that doesn't change the too big too fail configuration. Using just Aurene is the equivalent of replacing all financial institutions with one institution. This approach maximizes the risk of failure and the demand that Aurene be perfect or a Sue. I am hoping for a more aggressive resolution to the power corrupts and too big to fail tropes and those resolutions exist.

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@Psientist.6437 said:The elder dragons as Eldritch beings bound to a cosmic mechanism isn't stupid. It just makes it impossible for the PC to hold the ultimate role. From your comments Slowpokeking, it seems as though that is your actual complaint. We no longer have a reliable, dull, power fantasy that the PC can climb to the ultimate peak. The plot you want is the equivalent to playing wack-a-mole until there are no more moles. I want a story about the whole kitten carnival. We can still kill the bad Elder Dragons, but it will take longer and need more set up. We may even be on a journey to change how the All is configured; we could defeat the evil Elder dragons and ensure the end of Elder beings and the risk they pose. The main difference I can find between the OP's plot preference and what we have is there is less smoke available to blow up the PC's behind with the plot we have.

No it's not the point, actually the change had made the dragons even weaker.

Primordus and Jormag almost both got killed simply because the machine turned their power against each other. Kralkatorrik even needed us to save them. The changed had added nothing good to the dragons.

An Elder dragon may not be evil, wanting to kill mortals, but just pathologically fixated on efficient cycling of magic. Mortals just aren't important to them. The All may be completely responsible for their pathological personalities.

But it's not the case, other than DSD not being clear, all dragons were designed to be evil world threat. It's how they were designed to be, it cause bigger problem if you try to turn it in the middle of the story.

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It's not "I want to kill the dragon", it's the "Elder Dragons have been corrupting and killing everything ever since their awakening and posing a HUGE threat against all livings including our player race", which forcing us to kill them.

Trying to change it just made the story biting its own tail because it pretty much twisted the tone of the previous installment of heroes saving the world by defeating the dragons.

So our GW1 character was wrong to oppose the Great Destroyer?The EoD was wrong to kill dragon champions like the Dragonspawn?The Sea of Sorrows characters was wrong to fight Zhaitan's navy?It was wrong to forge the vigil or the Pact?Our PC was wrong to kill Zhaitan and Mordremoth?

It just did a huge slap in the face against our previous story and made bad excuse for so many innocent lives died in the dragons' hands.

Nor does it offer any reasonable solution to the story other than "the replacement" which could easily go boring and Sueish.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

No they are not just raging monsters. Jormag has been a manipulative jerk from the beginning, Zhaitan and Mordremoth are both intelligent as well. Right now they are still pretty much the same other than Kralkatorrik had some ration inside him, but that's all.

And make the dragons more interesting doesn't mean you have to add the "can't kill".

Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

Dragon intelligence is also a relatively new concept to mortals.. most don't see them as anything more than destroyers and Mordremoth wasn't even known until Scarlet woke it up.Even then Mordy was all Consume the world despite his intelligence and the same for Zhaitan who despite being capable of military like strategy was still hell bent on consuming everything.. much like Kralkatorrik.The only difference was their methods, abilities and power.

Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

Yes it is still doing the same right now. It was manipulating us by sending whispers and using Drakkar to empower itself.

Dragon intelligence is also a relatively new concept to mortals.. most don't see them as anything more than destroyers and Mordremoth wasn't even known until Scarlet woke it up.Even then Mordy was all Consume the world despite his intelligence and the same for Zhaitan who despite being capable of military like strategy was still hell bent on consuming everything.. much like Kralkatorrik.The only difference was their methods, abilities and power.

Yeah because it was how they were designed to be, and they were still doing it. Kralkatorrik was trying to consume everything in LW4

Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.

No, it had been manipulating Svanir and countless others before its awakening. It's pretty much doing the same thing right now. Using Almmora's voice to lure us, trying to break Ryland and Rytlock.

It's pretty much doing what it had been doing from the beginning: Seduce and manipulating mortals, using them to reach its goal.

Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

Yes we killed 3 dragons, but the rest of them are still harassing and corrupting the world. Jormag is still doing evil stuff like it has been doing for hundreds of years. A large part of Norn/Racial Sympathy quests have to do with fighting Jormag's scheme.

You can't simply say "Hey let's retcon all of those and make Jormag a good guy, even though it's still doing bad stuff", it's a direct slap in the face of previous GW lore, since Svanir and Jora's story.

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Post the discovery of the All dilemma, Elder dragons hold a more powerful position. They can now hold the fate of the world ransom. Their physical ability to prevent their death hasn't changed but they have gained a strategic advantage.

Obviousally the tone has changed but the change hardly comes as a 'smack in the face' or a destructive twisting of our goals. Of course it isn't wrong to defend Tyria and mortals. We still must defeat the remaining Elder dragons. Now they are more powerful and more of a threat than ever before. Do you think we will resolve the All dilemma and the Elder dragon threat by explaining that some people just have to die for the sake of the All? Make Tyria great again by making every Tyrian for themselves?

Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute. This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

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@Psientist.6437 said:Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute.Actually it's not my desire, it's how Anet has been writing the dragon story for so long.

They were made to be EVIL world threat from EotN. They took countless lives and everything had been telling us: Your destiny is to fight the dragons and bring peace again.

This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

And saving the dragon, then kill it to replace it isn't boring? If you really compare, Zhaitan's plot was much better than Kralkatorrik's other than the final dragon fight. It's much more complete, involving far many more NPCs and had touching sacrifices.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:Post the discovery of the All dilemma, Elder dragons hold a more powerful position. They can now hold the fate of the world ransom. Their physical ability to prevent their death hasn't changed but they have gained a strategic advantage.

Obviousally the tone has changed but the change hardly comes as a 'smack in the face' or a destructive twisting of our goals. Of course it isn't wrong to defend Tyria and mortals. We still must defeat the remaining Elder dragons. Now they are more powerful and more of a threat than ever before. Do you think we will resolve the All dilemma and the Elder dragon threat by explaining that some people just have to die for the sake of the All? Make Tyria great again by making every Tyrian for themselves?

Face it Slowpokeking, your problem is with changing how the power fantasy is resolved. You want a simple resolution where the heroes gain power and defeat dragons with no power or responsibility left over to be distributed. Only fame is left over to distribute. This resolution is boring and just as vulnerable to Suziness. The only real difference with adding the All dilemma is this resolution becomes impossible.

Let's break it:

EotN's epilogue

Ogden Stonehealer: "And the greatest threat of all was yet to come."Ogden Stonehealer: "A threat that would consume the entire world."Ogden Stonehealer: "And call upon the greatest of heroes."Ogden Stonehealer: "The children of the legends.

The three novels:GoA: Getting the Claw to help unite the Charr/humans to fight the dragons.EoD: How they fight dragons.SoS: How they unite to fight Zhaitan's navy.

Nearly the whole vanilla GW2 pact plot is about fighting and kill Zhaitan, if you don't you die. a large part of the pre pact quests are about fighting dragons.

It's not I want to do it, it's the tone GW2 has been setting upon.

It's pretty much like SW trying to make Palpatine and the Empire "can't be wiped or it will cause the galaxy to explode" in the middle, 99% of the time it would destroy the story.

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How are Elder dragons less of a threat or less 'evil'? You keep saying the All dilemma makes them so but I don't see how that works. The Elder dragons are now more dangerous. The All dilemma forces us to change our approach to overcoming their danger. That hardly qualifies as a slap in the face or the studio committing a breach of agreement or intent. We still need to defeat Elder dragons. Why are you claiming that requirement has changed? Why does changing our strategy mean abandoning any strategy?

If the fate of Palpatine and the galaxy were linked then 99.99% we would discover a way to break that link, change the system, or a new Emperor less intent on carnage. There are countless, exciting stories about eliminating bad guys in positions of power and changing the system to make bad guys in positions of power less likely. Stop acting like what the studio is doing is baffling or fated to inadequacy. They are simply trying to tackle the power vacuum frequently caused by resolving the power fantasy. That power vacuum is realistic, killing Palpatine caused a power vacuum. The studio is trying to show us a bigger, richer, more realistic picture of Tyria and it is making you angry. Be honest, is it the power left over, the need for a Kormir, that is making you angry?

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@"Psientist.6437" said:How are Elder dragons less of a threat or less 'evil'? You keep saying the All dilemma makes them so but I don't see how that works. The Elder dragons are now more dangerous.

Thus you agree that the plot had added nothing upon the dragon's depth, good.

The All dilemma forces us to change our approach to overcoming their danger. That hardly qualifies as a slap in the face or the studio committing a breach of agreement or intent. We still need to defeat Elder dragons. Why are you claiming that requirement has changed? Why does changing our strategy mean abandoning any strategy?

Of course it slapped us on the face, it means that our previous fights against the dragons were actually damaging Tyria, especially killing Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

Especially in the last few quests of Zhaitan. It's made clear that you NEED to kill it to end its tyranny and the corruption of Orr's magic.

Mordremoth also showed to be a huge threat which you are forced to kill the former marshal to end its life.

Then all of sudden, all these had become that "you are damaging Tyria by killing dragon and break balance"?

WTF is this?

If the fate of Palpatine and the galaxy were linked then 99.99% we would discover a way to break that link, change the system, or a new Emperor less intent on carnage. There are countless, exciting stories about eliminating bad guys in positions of power and changing the system to make bad guys in positions of power less likely. Stop acting like what the studio is doing is baffling or fated to inadequacy. They are simply trying to tackle the power vacuum frequently caused by resolving the power fantasy. That power vacuum is realistic, killing Palpatine caused a power vacuum.

You know why SW didn't try it? Because it will cause the story to become inconsistent, nor would the "find a new emperor" work 99% of the time without seem forced or even contradicting early stuff. Especially if there is "no even though Palpatine is bad and wanted to kill us all, you need to save him".

The studio is trying to show us a bigger, richer, more realistic picture of Tyria and it is making you angry. Be honest, is it the power left over,

Lol, putting "balance of the world" on "world consuming monster who only care about corrupt and kill everything" doesn't make anything bigger, richer or more realistic.

Face it, the dragons were not designed to be such thing, putting them into it in the middle of the story only ruin everything.

the need for a Kormir, that is making you angry?

Wrong.

The Six Gods were not designed to be all evil world ending threat from the beginning unlike the dragons. Even Abaddon wasn't evil at first, it's more like he was having a different idea than the rest. They are entities with their own thoughts, just like we humans. Thus a new god replacement makes a lot of sense.

Kormir's plot didn't involve us to save a world destroying Abaddon, thus making him more powerful and caused a huge problem to the world as well.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Jormag has been manipulative yes but ultimately still followed the same path of destroy/corrupt everything despite that.. to most Norn and other Mortals Jormag isnt much different than the others.

Yes it is still doing the same right now. It was manipulating us by sending whispers and using Drakkar to empower itself.

Yes but it only did this to select candidates, for the most part it sent icebrood to attack and slaughter everything and remained silent to most mortals.Hence contributing to the Dragon being no different to the others in terms of a being bent on destruction and nothing else.Jormag speaking to us and many others on a larger scale is a very recent occurance and only happening because it recognizes what we have achieved in recent years.

Jormag is ultimately the first Dragon who has broken trend and decided to reach out and recognize mortals as both a threat and a potential ally or tool that demands some level of respect.

No, it had been manipulating Svanir and countless others before its awakening. It's pretty much doing the same thing right now. Using Almmora's voice to lure us, trying to break Ryland and Rytlock.

It's pretty much doing what it had been doing from the beginning: Seduce and manipulating mortals, using them to reach its goal.

Not on this scale it hasn't, as I said above most interactions with Jormag has been through it's Icebrood attacks which are no different to any other Dragon Minion attack.Jormag never attempted to speak to us until we became someone worth speaking to.This is why until recently Jormag has been percieved by many mortals as just another Elder Dragon bent on nothing but destruction and it's Sons of Svanir have been seen as little more than foolish fanatics who are worshipping a false spirit.. one they call Dragon.Jormags current activity has been a more recent occurance, likely brought on by neccessity caused by the changing world it now finds itself in.Jormag is trying to adapt and prepare for some unknown threat on the horizon.. which is why it's become far more active and seeking to control as many minions/allies as it can.

Had we not 3 Dead Dragons and a God under our belt, not to mention an Elder Dragon for an ally then chances are it wouldn't care about us at all and wouldn't be trying to build some kind of relationship with us outside of the usual seduction to corruption tactics it's known for.

Yes we killed 3 dragons, but the rest of them are still harassing and corrupting the world. Jormag is still doing evil stuff like it has been doing for hundreds of years. A large part of Norn/Racial Sympathy quests have to do with fighting Jormag's scheme.

Yeah and it never once spoke to us back then which is my point.Most of those encounters with Icebrood/sons were no different than encounters with Branded, Risen, Destroyers etc.It's why the perception of ED being little more than raging destroyers was a thing in the first place.

You can't simply say "Hey let's retcon all of those and make Jormag a good guy, even though it's still doing bad stuff", it's a direct slap in the face of previous GW lore, since Svanir and Jora's story.

That's not what Anet is doing.Jormag is just trying to adapt to a new world order for it's own survival.. it's not a good dragon and nobody believes it to be.It's argument isn't "hey im good now lets team up" its more "I am a neccessary evil and you need me"Nothing has changed about Jormag only our perception of it, same with Kralkatorrik who despite being a raging monster turned out to be more complicated.It's not a retcon or a slap in the face, they're just making their main antagonists more interesting and complex which is a good thing.Jormag has always been a manipulator just very selective about it.. now we finally get to explore this side of it rather than just dealing with same old same old minion raids which was more or less the only in game intereactions with it in the past.. Jormag was really no more complex than early perceptions of Zhaitan in the personal story because of this.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Yes but it only did this to select candidates, for the most part it sent icebrood to attack and slaughter everything and remained silent to most mortals.Hence contributing to the Dragon being no different to the others in terms of a being bent on destruction and nothing else.Jormag speaking to us and many others on a larger scale is a very recent occurance and only happening because it recognizes what we have achieved in recent years.It spoke to ppl to seduce and use them.Jormag speaking to us is no different than it speaking to Svanir and other ppl, it was trying to deceive and use us.

Not on this scale it hasn't, as I said above most interactions with Jormag has been through it's Icebrood attacks which are no different to any other Dragon Minion attack.

It has, it spoke to Svanir through Drakkar and others

Jormag never attempted to speak to us until we became someone worth speaking to.

It simply spoke to us to manipulative us.

This is why until recently Jormag has been percieved by many mortals as just another Elder Dragon bent on nothing but destruction and it's Sons of Svanir have been seen as little more than foolish fanatics who are worshipping a false spirit.. one they call Dragon.

Again, Jormag has been doing the same thing, trying to fool us and use us.

Jormags current activity has been a more recent occurance, likely brought on by neccessity caused by the changing world it now finds itself in.

Jormag's recent activity:Using corrupted spirits to make minions and attack ppl.Trying to break and lure ppl

It has been doing such thing for so many years.

Jormag is trying to adapt and prepare for some unknown threat on the horizon.. which is why it's become far more active and seeking to control as many minions/allies as it can.

By keep attacking ppl and trying to break ppl, yeah that's something new. You truly believe its lies?

Yeah and it never once spoke to us back then which is my point.Most of those encounters with Icebrood/sons were no different than encounters with Branded, Risen, Destroyers etc.It's why the perception of ED being little more than raging destroyers was a thing in the first place.

But it spoke to many others before, since Svanir. It simply spoke ppl to break them and use them.

That's not what Anet is doing.Jormag is just trying to adapt to a new world order for it's own survival.. it's not a good dragon and nobody believes it to be.

No, it's more likely trying to deceive us through lies.

It's argument isn't "hey im good now lets team up" its more "I am a neccessary evil and you need me"

But the story failed to show it. We are still fighting it, breaking its scheme.

The world has been totally fine without Jormag's meddling, actually it was much better before that. Jormag even destroyed landscape through its blizzard, you say it's just doing nature cycle?

Nothing has changed about Jormag only our perception of it, same with Kralkatorrik who despite being a raging monster turned out to be more complicated.

Yeah, so why add the "dragon replacement" garbage?

It's not a retcon or a slap in the face, they're just making their main antagonists more interesting and complex which is a good thing.

It is, they are trying to make our past good doing into "you are damaging the world by killing dragons".

Jormag has always been a manipulator just very selective about it.. now we finally get to explore this side of it rather than just dealing with same old same old minion raids which was more or less the only in game intereactions with it in the past.. Jormag was really no more complex than early perceptions of Zhaitan in the personal story because of this.

It is a big evil manipulator, exploring it has nothing to do with dragon replacement and killing it or not.

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