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A contrast in shift of Difficulty


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@"voltaicbore.8012" said:I think it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority of players don't actually want raid-level challenges, the ones that demand self-improvement. I think most people are satisfied with a much lower level, just enough to feel a sense of accomplishment for winning. You and I (and the rest of us who raid) might relish higher challenges, but there are still a lot of people who play this game who don't even like the idea of dps meters to measure performance.

I could say more, but I'll get right to it - there really seems to be no point in asking people to see challenging content as some kind of "blessing." Those of us who want it, like you, will find ways to do it. The rest have every right to see that level of challenge as a waste of time.

There's also ones like me that don't have the time or social network to setup a raid with a consistent 10 man group. That's my ONLY barrier to raids. (I work nights in NA). I have the ability and the game experience to do them, just not the people who share the same schedule and have the length of time to learn it.

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@Aridon.8362 said:Perhaps in my array of paragraphs my point wasn't clear. I wasn't saying to do harder content. I was just saying to stop antagonizing people who do harder content. Just as you all like to cater yourselves to easier stuff, don't downplay people who do harder stuff.

In essence I'm an advocate for the majority. Simply to close this off if you don't want to do harder content then don't. But don't yell and scream at ANET for not wanting to push the game in your boring direction.

Personally I don't hate Justin Bieber , but i adore Ricky Martin for his hip moves . I wouldn't stoop so low and ''yell'' at Youtube , for promoting Justin Bieber's video songs in the front page . I will not simply listen to them .

Its like the everlasting question , of which company has the best MMo . The fans from each side , are the ones causing this drama while trying to intermingle .Just ... stay in the corner and don't interact with each other , thus avoiding antagonization .

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:Perhaps in my array of paragraphs my point wasn't clear. I wasn't saying to do harder content. I was just saying to stop antagonizing people who do harder content. Just as you all like to cater yourselves to easier stuff, don't downplay people who do harder stuff.

In essence I'm an advocate for the majority. Simply to close this off if you don't want to do harder content then don't. But don't yell and scream at ANET for not wanting to push the game in your boring direction.

Personally I don't hate Justin Bieber , but i adore Ricky Martin for his hip moves . I wouldn't stoop so low and ''yell'' at Youtube , for promoting Justin Bieber's video songs in the front page . I will not simply listen to them .

Its like the everlasting question , of which company has the best MMo . The fans from each side , are the ones causing this drama while trying to intermingle .Just ... stay in the corner and don't interact with each other .

That analogy is both poor and insulting. That deduction is also poor and insulting.

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@kharmin.7683 said:So, you don't actually have any proof other than anecdotal. Ok, I understand now.

I literally just gave you every visible example. You're just a false hope fallacy trying to exert confirmation bias.

And no you don't understand, because you can't you're clearly incapable of actually going through the portals to the places I mentioned and actually interacting with people in them.

And I see now arguing with you is like arguing with a useless wall.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:So, you don't actually have any proof other than anecdotal. Ok, I understand now.

I literally just gave you every visible example. You're just a false hope fallacy trying to exert confirmation bias.

Visible example in your experience and in your perception. That is not hard statistics. It is inherently biased. Sure, there may be dozens or even scores of players in these areas that you mention, but where is your actual proof that those account for such a large majority of the player base to factually back up your statement. The real fact is that you have no true facts. It's not even worth arguing further with you. One cannot argue on opinions.

Good luck.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

And all people are just standing in place at EotN and all the people in the aerodome and in front of the fractal portal, and all the people making queues for the battlegrounds in WvWHave you ever considered that the casuals aren't in all the places you mention, because they are out there in other parts of the world, diving in the world's vast reservoirs of content instead of queueing for group content or idling their time away in LA?Maybe they aren't 22/7 online in GW2, because there also are other things to do.

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Look, just because I disagree with your premise and ask you to back up your claims doesn't mean that you can personally attack me. You know nothing about me, so please stop.

You have outright dismissed any discussion of your own topic by claiming that your position is valid and then attack anyone who disagrees with you.. I never once advocated the position against your claim; rather, I only asked you to prove yours. Which you can't. Because you don't have the data. Only Anet has the data.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:I say this because I'm letting you know that casuals are actually a minority. The people who actually do harder content like WvW and PvP, Fractals, and other said content heavily outweigh casuals as a whole.Citation please.

Go to Lion's Arch and literally ask all the people sitting at the bank.

That's not proof of your statement.

And all people are just standing in place at EotN and all the people in the aerodome and in front of the fractal portal, and all the people making queues for the battlegrounds in WvW they're just there doing nothing? You think they're there to just roleplay? Look at all the people in Heart of the mists, are simply just standing there to do nothing, just admire the scenery? Even the most mundane of all the guilds I've been in, in the entirety of my time playing this do fractals. Just acknowledge that you're actually the 5% who want easier content. You can play the game however you want but at the end of the day, the majority of players aren't playing for the theme park aspect you're thinking you're playing in.

Literally you can go to an aerodome and you'll see it full of players. It's not as minute as you think it is. In fact a lot of those players have effects to their armors that often cause them to be walking lag spikes.

So you included asking all the people in the open world, because the casuals are not sitting around waiting to group up, they are actually playing the game.

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@kharmin.7683 said:Look, just because I disagree with your premise and ask you to back up your claims doesn't mean that you can personally attack me. You know nothing about me, so please stop.

You have outright dismissed any discussion of your own topic by claiming that your position is valid and then attack anyone who disagrees with you.. I never once advocated the position against your claim; rather, I only asked you to prove yours. Which you can't. Because you don't have the data. Only Anet has the data.

I can too personally attack when you're trying to make me appear as if I'm being foolish. And with all due respect, your opinion, and all the data can never actually replace experience.

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@"Aridon.8362" said:Perhaps in my array of paragraphs my point wasn't clear. I wasn't saying to do harder content. I was just saying to stop antagonizing people who do harder content. Just as you all like to cater yourselves to easier stuff, don't downplay people who do harder stuff.

Just because you like easier content doesn't mean ANET should have to create the game to just let you get by pressing 1 to attack. In fact although a large percentage of posters on this thread is wanting more easier gameplay, there was actually a poll done earlier about the difficulty of the game, and in fact the majority agrees that the level of difficulty of the game is where it should be or could actually be much harder. Here's the poll if you don't believe me.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97399/in-your-opinion-is-gw2-too-hard/p1

In essence I'm an advocate for the majority. Simply to close this off if you don't want to do harder content then don't. But don't yell and scream at ANET for not wanting to push the game in your boring direction.

You need to take that poll in context, the vast majority of players do not post or ever visit the forums, it's only the passionate players that do, and those tend to be players that enjoy harder content(I'm not going to say casual or hard-core, that's a play style, not they type of content you enjoy as a casual player can enjoy hard-core content). So if I was you I'd take that survey with a grain of salt, the only survey I would ever put my money on is one done by ArenaNet that was sent to all currently active accounts and they received a 50% response to. Only then would have a more accurate representation of what the player base thought and wants.

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@"Aridon.8362" said:Boredom drove me to quit as ANET pushed out contenteMind you I really took lengthy breaks from the game because of how boring it was.

This mentality kept me away from raiding even during alot of the longevity of PoF. Why go through this challenge to get really nothing in return?

The problem is that they were the same bosses, the same order, the same strategy, it eventually became mundane.

Now that I come back to the game in March 2020

Fractals have even become harder and I'm getting into that too, it's actually 10x more rewarding than it used to be 5 years ago.

But don't go off antagonizing people who actually give them a shot, because given ANETs past, it is a blessing to actually have one.

So how long were you gone for exactly? How long till you get bored of new "hard" content, that needs to be rewarding as difficulty is not it's own reward, and need more before leaving?

Who should Anet cater to?

Yes, I cherry picked lines, but they stood out to me.

It all reads as "the game was and mostly still is boring. A 1 armed mentally challenged monkey could complete its content. So I quit. I came back for raids, but loot wasn't worth the effort. Quit. Back again, some content is harder now and I like it, but the forums are filled with cry babies saying it's too hard as they need to press more buttons than 1 now. They should stop crying and like the new harder things I like, or at least stop crying."

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@Andy.5981 said:

@Andy.5981 said:It would be a very sad day if the game only catered for the more hardcore players.

It’s a sad day when a developer only caters to a subset of its player base. It doesn’t matter if it’s casual or hardcore.

However increasing zone / creature / open world difficulty isn't the way forward. People want to be entertained, they certainly dont want to be frustrated.

Not for existing maps but future maps and content should continue to gradually get more difficult and challenging. That’s typically how most other games operate. Something being difficult and challenging doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s not entertaining.

I would agree, concentrating on one at the expense of the other isn't a good idea. GW2 I believe has the right balance.

Considering the game gets hyper casual content every ~3 months and that the last piece of challenging 5 man content with the Shattered Observatory CM was almost 3 years ago, with the last proper challenging 10 man content in Wing 7 having been 9 months ago, I don't quite agree on the balance being right there.

Add to that the fact that Arc templates added a lot of replayability and horizontal progression for hardcore players by allowing them to further and further broaden their horizons with a vast amount of encounter specific builds they were able to play, which was actually removed and replaced by anets incredibly limited and hyper monitized Loadouts, if anything hardcore players in a sense lost content and replayability over the last year or so.

Sure we have Strikes now, which range from laughable solo content with the Icebrood Construct to alright group boss fights with Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag, but still, that's less than an hour of casual to semi-hardcore content competing with hours and hours of hyper casual content with multiple LW releases, and on the other hand zero proper hardcore content, be it solo or group.

I imagine your perception of the balance between hyper casual and hardcore content would be different if the last LW release had been 3 years ago, with some side stories once per year, while a new Raid Wing or Fractal CM's came out every 2-3 months.

@Andy.5981 said:

Whilst I have respect your opinion on your second point, in my opinion you are wrong.

Future maps should not get more difficult. They should be fun to play and provide a reasonable challenge, but if you raise difficulty at some point someone will not be able to complete the content of that map due to lack of players. It is already happening to some people at quieter times. Not everyone lives in Europe or America.

GW2 isn't most other games and has always prided itself on doing things differently. Going the same route as most other games I believe would alienate the vast majority of the player base.

The reason I can't take the argument of if Open World and such becomes more difficult people won't be able to keep up and quit quite seriously is because in the current games state, literally 90% of open world mobs can be killed by pressing a single semi spammable button on a proper build for pretty much all professions, while they in turn take up to half a minute to kill you while being afk.That doesn't sound reasonable for max level post 2 expansions content.I'm not saying hyper casual content shouldn't exist, not at all, but currently it makes up the absolute vast majority of the content available, a sizeable amount of it not even including any combat and consisting of just running around and pressing F on things at the worst of times (achievements and story), and even big story bads which you can burst down in 10 seconds at the best of times.

Currently the majority of the game isn't fun for a lot of people because it doesn't provide a reasonable amount of challenge and rather feels like playing a single player game with god mode cheats on. It's fun for a bit, sure, but rather quickly you start asking yourself what the point of it is.Sitting there disappointed and baffled after every story boss that got instantly nuked asking yourself "..wait, that was actually the boss, that was it?" for years, while craved content drops like Fractal CM's or Raids get rarer and rarer or disappear completely for years is pretty rough.

And yes, whenever Anet tries to ramp up the difficulty a tiny bit (and quickly caves again nerfing it into the ground) there is a huge outcry of a vocal minority, but I firmly believe that would quickly die down without any action like nerfs taken due to people quickly improving in skill if they just for once have to, quickly realising it actually ain't that bad once they know what they are doing and properly engaging with the game an it's systems, realising the fun in all the mechanics the game has to offer.

Point is, GW2 has plenty room for difficulty increases and the reason some people are struggling so much with anything remotely challenging is simply because the game never demanded of them to learn even the most basic game mechanics (like dodging, breakbars, build craft, etc.) all the way from level 1 to max level and through 2 expansions and LW content updates, unless they are the type of player willing to challenge themselves and to seek out the rare and separated away difficult content in Fractals and Raids, improving themselves.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Look, just because I disagree with your premise and ask you to back up your claims doesn't mean that you can personally attack me. You know nothing about me, so please stop.

You have outright dismissed any discussion of your own topic by claiming that your position is valid and then attack anyone who disagrees with you.. I never once advocated the position against your claim; rather, I only asked you to prove yours. Which you can't. Because you don't have the data. Only Anet has the data.

I can too personally attack when you're trying to make me appear as if I'm being foolish. And with all due respect, your opinion, and all the data can never actually replace experience.

Firstly, someone "making you appear foolish" is not a justification for personal attacks.

Besides, you manage looking foolish perfectly fine on your own.

You make a claim, back it up with anecdotal evidence (remember: everything that isn't actual verifiable data is anecdotal), then get pissy when called on it. Making a claim regarding objective states (group X is a majority i.e. >50%) and then saying "data can not replace experience" is fundamentally foolish.

The number of people queing means absolutely nothing for you argument without a total number of players to compare it to. Since you don't have that, you can't actually supply data supporting a claim to majority. Don't make claims you can't support - they make you look foolish.

On top of this, we have clear statements from ANet that no more than 10% play raids. That another 40% of the playerbase would be active enough in Fractals, PvP and WvW to consider themselvs non-casuals and still not do raids seems a bit of a stretch. There are absolutely players in that category, but 40% of the population? Seems unlikely. (Note how I'm not claiming that your statement is incorrect, just that it is unsupported and that I find it improbable. See bolded above re: making claims)

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@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Look, just because I disagree with your premise and ask you to back up your claims doesn't mean that you can personally attack me. You know nothing about me, so please stop.

You have outright dismissed any discussion of your own topic by claiming that your position is valid and then attack anyone who disagrees with you.. I never once advocated the position against your claim; rather, I only asked you to prove yours. Which you can't. Because you don't have the data. Only Anet has the data.

I can too personally attack when you're trying to make me appear as if I'm being foolish. And with all due respect, your opinion, and all the data can never actually replace experience.

Firstly, someone "making you appear foolish" is
not
a justification for personal attacks.

Besides, you manage looking foolish perfectly fine on your own.

You make a claim, back it up with anecdotal evidence (remember:
everything
that isn't actual verifiable data is anecdotal), then get pissy when called on it. Making a claim regarding objective states (group X is a majority i.e. >50%) and then saying "data can not replace experience" is fundamentally foolish.

The number of people queing means
absolutely nothing
for you argument without a total number of players to compare it to. Since you don't have that, you can't actually supply data supporting a claim to majority.
Don't make claims you can't support - they make you look foolish.

On top of this, we have clear statements from ANet that no more than 10% play raids. That another 40% of the playerbase would be active enough in Fractals, PvP and WvW to consider themselvs non-casuals
and still not do raids
seems a bit of a stretch. There are
absolutely
players in that category, but 40% of the population? Seems unlikely. (Note how I'm not
claiming
that your statement is incorrect, just that it is unsupported and that I find it improbable. See bolded above re: making claims)

Oh absolutely, and even more people do content in path of fire and HoT Maps there's literally barely any people left in core Tyria except for new players, meta hunters, and veterans farming a gift of exploration! And NOBODY complains about going to PoF or HoT stuff that has higher chances of killing you and has much harder content.

See you're getting me wrong, CASUALS or even more specifically HYPERCASUALS, are specifically trying to FREELOAD content that's harder and pushing ANET to do it. That only takes away the meaning of all the effort people who actually have done the content already because it devalues that effort that players put in. It's insulting and honestly pretty degrading. If you want to do the content put the same amount of effort in or don't do it at all. Literally nobody is asking you to do the harder content. Nobody is telling you go do PoF metas, nobody is telling you go do your fractals. But casuals have the audacity to have some sort of problem with hard content even existing like what?

That's like everyone winning the lottery while you had to put years worth of effort to even get the money that the lottery is giving out. Everyone is literally attacking me on this, and if you want to defend these people go ahead. Make everything easy and put a hard mode on with no carrot or incentive to have to do it then. Even now raiding has two modes, one is a regular mode and one is challenge mode. Go figure you already have an implementation of what you want.

Also people are acting like they're missing out on content when the reality is raiders aren't being showered in ascended armor and gold. Same goes for PvP, fractals, and WvW. These challenges literally exist for the challenge they present. Nothing more nothing less. You know what happens after you kill Sabetha in wing 1? Nothing she just dies. There's barely any story to her on the wiki, nobody knows where she's from or who she is, all it says she's the leader of the bandits found in the spirit Vale.

I guarantee you that if ANET actually goes through with making raids as simple as people here want it to be, you're going to be extremely disappointed with what lies at the end.

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I don't think "hard" content is bad at all. I just don't have the time to dedicate any more to learning how to play through it. Any hard content becomes easier once you're used to it. I'm sad I am missing out due to my job though. I wish there was a difficulty setting for raids like fractals has, so I could at least, at my own pace + in the time I have available, enjoy that content too.

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@"Obfuscate.6430" said:I don't think "hard" content is bad at all.

I agree, each development cycle should have something for everyone.

As pretty as the recent maps are I'd prefer more maps akin to HoT: Punishing if you get cocky. Jolly fun to poke around in if you keep your wits about you. (Though mounts have pretty much trivialized a lot of the dangers of those maps.)

I just don't have the time to dedicate any more to learning how to play through it.

For me the effort required does not equal reward received so it's a non-starter.

I wish there was a difficulty setting for raids like fractals has, so I could at least, at my own pace + in the time I have available, enjoy that content too.

Anet's fear of going back and updating old content is probably why they never did something that obvious instead of building an entire new game mode like they did.

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