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Jormag, Primordus, and DSD New power level.


Karkara.9067

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@WafflingMean.4351 said:

@"Ithirahad.5132" said:In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordous. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old. And given there's no mention from the ancient races of them managing to kill an Elder Dragon (although Joko did claim to have been the one who turned Kralkatorick into an Elder Dragon, if he can be believed, so that might have happened in the last cycle), we can safely say the remaining Elder Dragons are all at least 20,000 years old. They've had a lot of time to grow. A side note is that they've also had much more time to learn how to use their power. So Aurene shouldn't underestimate Jormag.

Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

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@"Tyson.5160" said:Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._JokoYeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

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@WafflingMean.4351 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.
Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

Let’s wait and see. Kralkatorrik did cry out for his mother upon his death at the end of season 4.

Which may mean he killed his mother and replaced her or there could be a larger Elder Dragon that birthed the other six.

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@Jimbru.6014 said:Unfortunately, that victory made the Pact overconfident. They tried to Leeroy Jenkins Mordremoth head on, neglecting the facts that Mordremoth was NOT weakened like Zhaitan, and he had at least some inside help and advance knowledge, as demonstrated by the attacks on the Zephyrites and Pale Tree. The predictable result was that Mordremoth literally swatted the Pact fleet out of the sky with the help of the corrupted Sylvari, forcing the Pact into a costly, divisive, come-from-behind campaign that made the war against Zhaitan look like a cakewalk by comparison.

I'm not sure that was strictly overconfidence. Trahearne's strategy was based on the principle that a newly-awakened elder dragon was already in a weakened state compared to Zhaitan at the height of his power, and that newly-awakened elder dragons tend to have a particularly destructive initial expansion to claim territory and additional magic to strengthen themselves (with Rata Sum and the Grove already disturbingly close to the current front lines). His goal was to strike while Mordremoth was still fairly weak and before Mordremoth could go on the offensive.

It turned out there was a factor he hadn't accounted for, but apart from that the strategy was largely sound. Mordremoth still being relatively weak was even demonstrated through the remnants of the Pact still being able to take him down.

In Jormag's case... Jormag did get put back into hibernation in S3, and it's questionable whether Jormag's actually fully awake even now, or whether Jormag's in a state similar to Mordremoth in season 1. Which would explain Jormag current behaviour - Jormag knows Jormag's the underdog, but if Jormag can turn a strong military leader, or even better, the force that has already killed three Elder Dragons, that would put Jormag in a much stronger position.

It's also possible that Jormag's limited use of magic outside the ice and persuasion spectrum could be that Jormag knows that absorbing too many forms of magic at once can be bad for a dragon's sanity. Jormag may still be a villain, but Jormag's approach would probably be compromised if Jormag went full Kralkatorrik.

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@WafflingMean.4351 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.
Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

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@"Stephen.6312" said:Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

I would rather lean into that being his propaganda to "validate" his rule over Elona.The spirits of of Last Primeval kings (and queens) have explicitelly claimed that Joko does not have any legitimate claims.

What I find more interesting notion of implications of "what it takes to become a lich" is that out of 3 "great" liches I recall in GW2 lore while all 3 of them required gimmick to kill, one was created by dragon, and others required manipulation with soul/magic to undo.

We defeated Vizier Khilbron by binding his soul into the soul batteries powering the barrier on the door of khomalie (I hope I didn't misspell the name xD) Joko was defeated by unbinding his magic from him by a magic eater entity. Which is kind of similar "scope" I would say. Or at least close enough.

Now we know how khilbron became lich - he used a magical scroll, which has also sunk Orr. Now question arises - do creation of this "class" of lich require such scale of destruction as side effect? If yes - what was the destruction that he has caused? I used to have theory on it, but the joko arc of LS4 seems to be contradicting that theory.Theory was slightly based on mention of last queens of primeval dynasty about some of their court members betraying them essentially. The idea was that Joko could have been one of those courtiers that did so, as scarab plague was his "side effect" of becoming a lich - this would also justify how queens are so damn sure that he has no legitimacy in his claim to their throne. But if that was the case Joko would have no need to seek the plague from the inquest. Unless the side effect was not linked at all to the source of it and Joko despite beign source had no influence on it and he lost track of the bugs when moving out to the desert. But I do not know how would this line up with his diary from halloween.

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@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:What I find more interesting notion of implications of "what it takes to become a lich" is that out of 3 "great" liches I recall in GW2 lore while all 3 of them required gimmick to kill, one was created by dragon, and others required manipulation with soul/magic to undo.We defeated Vizier Khilbron by binding his soul into the soul batteries powering the barrier on the door of khomalie (I hope I didn't misspell the name xD) Joko was defeated by unbinding his magic from him by a magic eater entity. Which is kind of similar "scope" I would say. Or at least close enough.Who is the third lich?

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@"Fueki.4753" said:Who is the third lich?In the personal story there's a lich in service to Zhaitan. I think it's if you do the Sylvari storyline. The only weapon capable of harming Mazdak the Accursed (at least that the player character was able to find on short notice) was Caladbolg. Perhaps since this lich's power primarily came from Zhaitan, a weapon like Caladbolg which seems powered by the energy of a cleansed dragon champion was capable of inflicting damage through some sort of cleansing power, making Zhaitan's own corrupted death magic unable to heal up wounds this lich received?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mazdak_the_Accursed

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@"Stephen.6312" said:I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

The crackpot theory I'm going to go with is either Joko had the diary planted to mislead people about his true origin, or the person we know as Palawa Ignatious Joko is not the result of just one person becoming a lich. He may have been a being that predated a person he possessed, who is probably a young prince (and likely a necromancer) called Ignatious, or "Iggy". And a result of the possession is that to an extent their identities and personalities merged. It's worth noting that we never heard Palawa Joko's middle name (as far as I know) until the 'Long Live the Lich' patch. He seemed content to refer to himself as Palawa Joko, whereas the diary suggests that in his youth, Ignatious was the preferred name. Maybe that indicates some change in identity. Regardless I'm sure this wasn't the intention of the writers and they want Joko's story done with but maybe this is a loophole for people who don't want it to be over.

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@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:Now we know how khilbron became lich - he used a magical scroll, which has also sunk Orr. Now question arises - do creation of this "class" of lich require such scale of destruction as side effect? If yes - what was the destruction that he has caused? I used to have theory on it, but the joko arc of LS4 seems to be contradicting that theory.Theory was slightly based on mention of last queens of primeval dynasty about some of their court members betraying them essentially. The idea was that Joko could have been one of those courtiers that did so, as scarab plague was his "side effect" of becoming a lich - this would also justify how queens are so kitten sure that he has no legitimacy in his claim to their throne. But if that was the case Joko would have no need to seek the plague from the inquest. Unless the side effect was not linked at all to the source of it and Joko despite beign source had no influence on it and he lost track of the bugs when moving out to the desert. But I do not know how would this line up with his diary from halloween.

An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

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@WafflingMean.4351 said:An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

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@WafflingMean.4351 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko
knows
that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

The crackpot theory I'm going to go with is either Joko had the diary planted to mislead people about his true origin, or the person we know as Palawa Ignatious Joko is not the result of just one person becoming a lich. He may have been a being that predated a person he possessed, who is probably a young prince (and likely a necromancer) called Ignatious, or "Iggy". And a result of the possession is that to an extent their identities and personalities merged. It's worth noting that we never heard Palawa Joko's middle name (as far as I know) until the 'Long Live the Lich' patch. He seemed content to refer to himself as Palawa Joko, whereas the diary suggests that in his youth, Ignatious was the preferred name. Maybe that indicates some change in identity. Regardless I'm sure this wasn't the intention of the writers and they want Joko's story done with but maybe this is a loophole for people who don't want it to be over.

I'll take your theory onboard. It's stellar. Here's how I see it: the possession you think may be taking place runs in the family, through the bloodline. But "Iggy" was prepared to do more than entertain the spirit that we call Palawa Joko; he was willing to allow Palawa to possess him.

The thing about Iggy's mother is intriguing. The wiki writer thinks that Iggy was the son of an Elonian diplomat. But what if Iggy's mother was more than that? What if she was a member of the Primeval royal house and Iggy didn't assume titles of royalty until his mother passed? Maybe, in his eyes, she was the rightful Primeval monarch whilst she lived, regardless of whether she even realized this or ever openly acknowledged it. We know that the Primeval throne was the seat of both kings and queens, so Joko's deference to his mother would make sense from that perspective.

Curiously, Iggy says nothing about his mother anywhere else. It might be a sore point for him. I wonder what would happen if you made fun of her memory around him?

Things would probably get personal.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@WafflingMean.4351 said:An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold lich-like power.

Palawa Joko made a Bone Palace in the Desolation, close to the Mouth of Torment, the point at which a massive explosion rocked Elona - an explosion that marked the climax of the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven and permanently changed the surrounding landscape. This cannot be a coincidence.

Why would Palawa feel the need to go in there? Why build a Bone Palace there? What forces were driving him?

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@WafflingMean.4351 said:An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

Palawa Joko made a Bone Palace in the Desolation, close to the Mouth of Torment, the point at which a massive explosion rocked Elona - an explosion that marked the climax of the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven and permanently changed the surrounding landscape. This cannot be a coincidence.

Why would Palawa feel the need to go in there? Why build a Bone Palace there? What forces were driving him?

Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

Afaik, Abaddon had been confined to the Realm of Torment between (presumably) 0BE and 1075AE. Don't quote me on that, though.

Palawa Joko built his Bone Palace in 757AE, if memory serves correctly.

Most likely a good place to build an army away from prying eyes as no one could travel across the sulphurous wastes, unless you were undead or inside a wurm. The wastes have a natural defensive ability of keeping people out. The reason for the wastes is because of that great battle between the gods.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@WafflingMean.4351 said:An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

Abaddon is the god of secrets after all, so he most likely knows an assortment of taboo and forbidden magics and enchantments.

The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

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@Karkara.9067 said:I read no so long ago a discussion about the death of almorra and that she may still have a part in the story, and it have come to mind something, Kralkatorrik have absorbed some of zhaitan and mordremoth's power's, so its easy to assume so did the other dragons.

We cannot assume that the others aren't as powerfull as kralk even though he got balthazars powers, and because of that also got residual magic energy from both the defeated elder dragons up to that point, now kralk's powers where completely absorbed by aurene, so in this case his powers where not transferred to the others.

What we can assume of this is that the abillity that jormag have shown to reanimate dead people (like she did in episode 1) is not a jormag power but an absorbed zhaitan power, (and in that case almorra might as well come back as an jormag zombie), after mordre death Jormag mind powers might have increased (since mordre was the mind dragon), and that may explain why she could influence other people than her fanatics (even the char miles away).

The timeframe is also good since kralk was the most powerful after absorbing balthazar, jormag just waited his death to act. (Since she was the only other awaked that we know)

That also may help with primordus, and the DSD character development since they may be able to use this powers to be more complex villains.

You're using the wrong pronoun. Jormag is nonbinary. They/them instead of gender specific pronoun.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@WafflingMean.4351 said:An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

Abaddon is the god of secrets after all, so he most likely knows an assortment of taboo and forbidden magics and enchantments.

I think that you've hit the nail on the head there.

The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

I have a theory about that. I'm working on it. I guess now is as good a time as ever to draft it.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.According to An Empire Divided that is exactly the case. Dwayna's magic - originally intended to help the year's harvest - was absorbed by Shiro through the study and use of dark rituals, and he utilized that magic, altered by said dark rituals, upon his death to cause the Jade Wind.

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@"WafflingMean.4351" said:The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordus. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old.

We don't know that Aurene is actually stronger than any of the full grown EDs yet.

Just judging by the size of Primordus' head alone in LS3E5, and assuming he has a relatively "normal" draconic body structure attached to it, Primordus is by far the largest of the EDs that we've seen thus far. And given the solid, concrete, MASSIVE basis of his power -- the earth and fire of the planet Tyria itself -- it's also reasonable to assume that he is one of the most powerful EDs. As opposed to the more abstract realms that other EDs govern. Jormag whispering to people? Zhaitan raising dead bodies? Small timers. Go read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923_Great_Kantō_earthquake -- That's what we have to look forward to from Primordus. Be afraid; be very afraid...

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