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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentorB. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present a counter argument. Actually, I'm lying ... I do believe you have no counter argument ... it's par for the course.

. The fact is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Why is Anet going to develop raids if raids aren't a profitable part of the business? or is that just another 'worst argument yet' for you?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

Nothing is slipping ... it makes no sense for a business to develop or offer services/products that don't make profits unless they are loss leaders. It's unreasonable to propose that raids aren't being developed because they weren't profitable? Sure ... you got me. :trollface:

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

You must forget who you argued with prior. Now you trying to rehash stuff. I don't need to argue something you can't prove. You have no idea if some whale raided and spent $10,000 on gems or if that whale only did pve content or WvW content but wanted to look pretty. It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons all better then the players who raided didn't buy gems. They make money on skins and storage and qol stuff otherwise WvW/PvP would of been abandoned years ago cause how do those make money with barely any gem store items attached? So no gem spending by a raider had nothing to do with why they stopped. You just like to have extended arguments. Dam you It's reset mean distraction

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@Jilora.9524 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

You must forget who you argued with prior.

Nope, didn't forget ... still arguing with the same people that don't understand how business works and have a hard time understanding what they are reading.

BTW, still waiting for that counter argument against the idea that a business will drop products and services if those products/services aren't profitable. Or an explanation that if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? Either will do in this case.

It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons better then the players who raided didn't buy gems

GREAT!!!!! Then it shouldn't be hard for you to tell me even ONE of them right?

And just to be clear, I didn't say raiders don't buy gems. Again, if you're going to have a go with me, the comprehension skills are going to have to go up a few notches.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

Not in light of the 2019 layoffs and complete 180 on Arenanets devotion to the game.

There was a very clear indication that the studio was working on moving on from GW2, which has been reverted over the last year.

As such, I politely disagree with your hypothesis. Raids suffered lack of content as did the test of the game, only they were not a high priority to begin with, which resulted in a similar departure of players similar to pvp and wvw.

The current focus and strong attempt to solidify instanced content also disagrees with your highly subjective and unfounded theory. As does the returned focus on pvp and wvw. If at all, I'd argue the developers are trying desperatly to encourge as diverse as possible a player pool, because one player type will not sustain this game (even less the casual I drop in every few moths casual crowd). Devoted players spend money.

Given all these developments, I'd argue even open world content and players were not generating enough revenue, since the game was pretty much almost on maintanance mode overall. Read into that what you want. We have left the sphere of rational reasoning with your arguments already.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities for all players. If the aggregate revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content that is associated with it, it's not profitable to continue developing that content.

Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess. I would be interested in hearing what you DO think is the factor that determines what Anet focuses on for offerings ... if it's not related to revenues.

I mean ... you say the game was close to shutting down ... you don't think that has anything to do with revenue? I'm pretty sure it does ... but I'm all ears to hear what you think.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

I do think revenue drives a company.

In light of this fact, I feel rather confident in my assumptions being far more founded than yours given the latest patches which have focused on supporting more than just open world content.

So yes, revenue dictates a business actions, ans the latest actions suggest the devs value:

  • pvp
  • wvw
  • instanced content
  • not exclusive open world content
  • and overall more and more varied content
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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

I do think revenue drives a company.So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

I do think revenue drives a company.So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

You must forget who you argued with prior.

Nope, didn't forget ... still arguing with the same people that don't understand how business works and have a hard time understanding what they are reading.

BTW, still waiting for that counter argument against the idea that a business will drop products and services if those products/services aren't profitable. Or an explanation that if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? Either will do in this case.

It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons better then the players who raided didn't buy gems

GREAT!!!!! Then it shouldn't be hard for you to tell me even ONE of them right?

And just to be clear, I didn't say raiders don't buy gems. Again, if you're going to have a go with me, the comprehension skills are going to have to go up a few notches.

I already gave you reasons now you want me to give those many reasons again because you try and say stuff that could make sense but doesn't apply to here. How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase? So again no that wasn't the reason. You make silly argument than swap it to what a business would do if a product wasn't making money but this is not a product that could make money. It's just varied content like Dungeons which make no money. PvP WvW etc. The only thing that makes them money are expansions and gem sales which are skins and qol or fun thingamagigs. Nothing to do with raids or any aspect being profitable because there aren't an equal amount of things. And I do bet with all the changes anet made around classes w nerfs to stat gear some raiders spent money on gems to trade 2 gold to buy gear to respecc to compete in raids but who cares. Still your worst argument yet

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@Jilora.9524 said:How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

Seriously ... is it too much to ask that you put more effort in comprehending my posts or should I just expect you to be combative over everything I post? The best part is that AGAIN ... your literally parroting my own points back to me ... but I'm wrong. Gotcha :trollface:

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.That's
also
why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

That would also have a more negative impact.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.That's
also
why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

That would also have a more negative impact.

Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would support the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

I do think revenue drives a company.So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

Honestly, I don't see what you disagree with me about. If you believe revenue dictates business actions, why is it unreasonable to believe that doesn't apply to why raids aren't being developed regularly anymore? What makes raids exceptional to that?I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

Neither do I ... but if you actually believe what you said about how revenues dictate business directions, why are raids so exceptional that they aren't being developed while everything else still is? You say there was a content drought for everything ... yet only raids aren't being developed right now. Why do you think that is if you DON'T think it could be that it has low revenues?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.That's
also
why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

That would also have a more negative impact.

Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would
support
the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

If I suddenly needed QoL stuff from the gem store to do raids I would stop doing them. I'm certain the same can be said for others.

And in regards to sustainability of raids I think you're right about it not being sustainable for long term, just not for the right reasons. It's not financially, I can tell you that much, it's pretty evident that it's actually more about how management is handled in ANET, literally something is always going on at ANET that doesn't seem right, new raids aren't pushed out constantly and stuff but that's more of a management issue. Seriously when the designer of Dhumm and Samarog are leaving the company, that's a sign.

Also people get bored. Even in WoW where a season is supposed to last like almost a third of a year to a half of one, you have the same kind of draught. And now that Mike O Brien is out of the picture and people hungry about how gender neutral everything has to be I'm sure things are going to get better...

I mean just look at WvW we've had the empty promise of Alliances sitting around with seemingly no action for about 3 years now. And it took years for one and I meaningfully significant update to WvW despite our constant protests and feedback on what was and is wrong with it. And even for that they removed the thread they had pinned about it so that dream is now pretty much dead.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@psyt.9415 said:Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

I dont believe thats as big of an issue to worth considering. Wow has had such encounters within the same raids for years and at an even harder lvl, for gw2 to do it is all the easier because gw2 is exceptionally alt friendly.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

The question then becomes:Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

A.
stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this contentor
B.
stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:
  1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
  2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

I do think revenue drives a company.So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

Honestly, I don't see what you disagree with me about. If you believe revenue dictates business actions, why is it unreasonable to believe that doesn't apply to why raids aren't being developed regularly anymore? What makes raids exceptional to that?

Nothing makes raids exceptional. I disagree with the reason for raids seeing no continued support, or rather the lack of revenue from players playing them, laying solely in raids being unpopular:

  • the main driving factor is player population, which fell for all content. Obviously niche content will be hit the hardest
  • many game modes saw a lack of attention based on a business decision which was changed: aka discontinuation of the game.

It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

Neither do I ... but if you actually believe what you said about how revenues dictate business directions, why are raids so exceptional that they aren't being developed while everything else still is? You say there was a content drought for everything ... yet only raids aren't being developed right now. Why do you think that is if you DON'T think it could be that it has low revenues?

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not believe raids or rather the development for instanced content has seen a stop in development. On the contrary, I see more of it.

The main difference is, as a result of past business decisions, a new approach was necessary: strikes.

Which brings us full circle to what you commented on:If strikes are not feasible as suggested by vesica tempestas.1563:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing.

If the approach with strikes is not successful or even doomed to fail from the start, because the main issue was never the lack of "entry mode raids", it might have been or might be a prudent business decision to target only a niche group with this contents resources, or not provide it at all.

Which also solves the issues like requiring strike achievements for open world masteries.

The main issue is: you keep willfully ignoring things like the fact that obviously challenging instanced content is still desired, or at least is again desired (see fractals, which too have not seen a fair share of content developed) if current resource allocation is to be believed. The fact that this content is not called raids, but falls into a similar design, is not an argument that content was discontinued.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.That's
also
why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

That would also have a more negative impact.

Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would
support
the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

Does anet sell lw qol in the gemstore?

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