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Dragon Gender & Torment


Hypnowulf.7403

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@Drgnfly.5812 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:but a scion is specifically defined as the offspring of an ED on the wiki, whereas a Champion is not. In so far as I can fell, a champion is simply another being corrupted/uplifted by an ED (though clearly a scion
can
also be an ED champion).

I am in total agreement here. In places where it is obvious (for instance Fraenir) or it strains credulity (for instance the Branded Devourer Queen) I would maintain that these champions are not scions of any particular ED. But when we discuss other draconic entities, like Tequatl, then the possibility that they are descendants from or at least magical grafts of the EDs has to be considered. Which is why I assert statements like "Kralk is the ONLY ED so far to produce scions." is a step to far.

As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.It's speculated the same is true for Shadow of the Dragon and Claws of Jormag too which would make sense really.Taking into account that Primordus essentially crafts all his minions too including his Destroyer champions it would make sense that corruption isn't the only method they have to create minions.Kralkatorrik is currently the only EDragon we know of so far who has produced living Scions via reproduction and who had some kind of mother but that could change as we learn more about them in the future and I expect that all the Elder Dragons have similar origins hidden away in the mystery of their past.Exciting story for sure ^^

@"Teratus.2859" said:It is confirmed that Glint is Kralkatorriks Scion and she came from Kralkatorrik but it is to my knowledge not confirmed if she was born before or after Kralkatorrik became and Elder Dragon.We do know that Kralkatorrik was also born from a mother and from that can also speculate that Kralkatorrik was at one point in time a normal Dragon and not an Elder Dragon.

These are wonderful ideas to speculate on. Developing ideas about how the EDs reproduce could open up all sorts of threads with regards to motivation. I will admit I am always a sucker for the "fallen" character trope. Perhaps part of the elevating to ED and the ultimate torment of Kralk was that he consumed his mother. Perhaps he consumed other scions in a desire to feed on magic. Perhaps Kralk is driven by an addiction and is "strung out" on the magics with an unquenchable thirst. Ultimately all of these points are unknown until we get more direction from the developers. I would love to discuss the torments of all these dragons. But perhaps in another thread as I think we have drifted from the original point from Hypnowulf.7403.

I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

Im looking forward to learning more about Dragon Torment too, Kralk is the only one we know of who had one so far but if the others do as well then I wonder how it will manifest.I've made several posts in the past regarding Jormag's torment possibly manifesting as Paranoia which might explain it's behaviour of manipulating and betraying those it made deals with.. it could also be the reason why we've seen so many people succuming to Paranoia, vigil members stating they cannot trust their allies and listening to Jormag who promises them protection etcThis could be Jormag projecting it's own paranoia on others, breaking them and making them loyal to it

One trait of PPD (Paranoid Personality Disorder) is being cold and distant which often leads to them becoming controlling and jealous which is pretty fitting for the Elder Dragon of Ice right xDJealous of Aurine, cold and distant being quite literal in Jormags case and controlling fits the dragon perfectly.Some other traits being:Always believing they are right (Elder Dragons in a nutshell)Doubting loyalties of others (Hence the need to break their victims mentally and corruption of only the most loyal minions)Believing others are exploiting or deceiving them. (Gotta control them so they don't exploit me.. Makes sense for Jormag)Are Hostile, stubbon and argumentative (Hostile definitely, Stubbon.. yeah Jormag seems pretty persistent to get it's way no matter what and the last we've yet to see.)Are unforgiving and hold grudges. (Could definitely see Jormag become this when we eventually agree to work with it and turn on it)Tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, especially those from different cultural groups. (This could be something Anet could fit in well with Jormag and the Norn/Charr specifically, specially with a whole Canthan expansion on the horizon and non human racism very likely being a part of it)

Kralks torment drove him to consume.Jormags could drive it to control..Mordremoths could have driven it to dominate..And Zhaitans could have been similar to Kralks.. consumption or it could have been to spread like a pestilence.

As for the other two.. DSD is too much an enigma to really work out but Primordus.. Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

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Compared to the other EDs, Primordus has shown relatively little interest in affairs on the surface on Tyria. Primordus and the Destroyers certainly wreaked havoc on the underground races, but that seems to have been as much or more by them happening to be in Primordus' way, as by deliberate design. I mean, look at it from Primordus' perspective: would YOU be happy to wake up after millennia and find an entire civilization (Asura) leeching your magical energy? Little wonder that the Asura felt his wrath first and hardest, by both physical proximity to him and the provocation of powering the Central Transfer Chamber from him.

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@"Jimbru.6014" said:Compared to the other EDs, Primordus has shown relatively little interest in affairs on the surface on Tyria. Primordus and the Destroyers certainly wreaked havoc on the underground races, but that seems to have been as much or more by them happening to be in Primordus' way, as by deliberate design. I mean, look at it from Primordus' perspective: would YOU be happy to wake up after millennia and find an entire civilization (Asura) leeching your magical energy? Little wonder that the Asura felt his wrath first and hardest, by both physical proximity to him and the provocation of powering the Central Transfer Chamber from him.

I would disagree. We were told that the Great Destroyer's purpose was to - to paraphrase - clear surface life in preparation for Primordus' rising. The main reason there isn't much surface activity from destroyers in the past 200 years is because the dwarves has been in the way, fighting the destroyers and Primordus. That's why destroyers began surfacing "only recently" - which is why almost all surfacers believe dwarves completely extinct by now, not just as creatures of flesh but even creatures of stone. Not to mention that Primordus has had all the time in the world to chow down on six Rata Sum-equivalent asuran cities that are underground.

So I would argue that Primordus is interested in the surface - hence why we see any destroyer activity at all on the surface - but it has been incapable of afflicting the surface until recently, and it only is interested minutely at that.

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@Teratus.2859 said:As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.

What would be the traditional sense for an ED to create a scion? Are not all systems of reproduction simply forms and methods by which living entities biologically "construct" new individuals? Perhaps we are just picturing two different, but equally plausible, forms of creation based on the information provided.

@Teratus.2859 said:I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

I would have to say my most favorite fallen heroes would be Achilles and Anakin. I love the idea of portraying a suffering in literature and then turning it into a madness. Whether it is an uncontrollable rage (Achilles), a cold heartless fist (Anakin), or possibly in the case of Kralk. an unquenchable thirst.

I cannot say I've heard of Black Cauldren (sp?) though. Is that a book?

@Teratus.2859 said:Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

This makes a lot sense to me. I could see Primordius being perhaps the most primal of the EDs. Where Mordremoth or Jormag are very thoughtful and cunning, this potential hunger of Primordus seems thematically likely. Fire is a consuming force with no regard to boundaries. Perhaps Primordius's torment isn't just pyromantic in nature but verges on a type of filicide.

@"XenoSpyro.1780" said:I'm Bi, and I don't get that vibe at all. Kinda shows you're one of those overtly sensitive types of people this post is referring to.

I'm not sure what your sexual orientation has to do with his, yours, or my point. Unless you trying to appeal to your authority in order to convince me that I did not read what I read. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your interpretation same as me. My desire here is simply to discuss Tyrian lore and stories. I do not feel that I was in any way disrespectful to Aridon.8362. I am genuinely confused as to why you feel the need to defend that particular post. And I certainly don't see how trying to characterize me as "overtly sensitive" is in any way necessary within this forum.

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@Drgnfly.5812 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:As I posted above we know that Tequatl (as well as Zhaitans other Dragon like Champions) and the Shatter were created by their respective Elder Dragons.They were not corrupted beings or born in the traditional sense but constructed.

What would be the traditional sense for an ED to create a scion? Are not all systems of reproduction simply forms and methods by which living entities biologically "construct" new individuals? Perhaps we are just picturing two different, but equally plausible, forms of creation based on the information provided.

I would assume there is a difference yeah.Glint as we know was her own being, as was Vlast and Aurine but typical Dragon Champions have shown no sign of any real individuality before nor after their masters were destroyed.They don't seem capable of speech or free will, but we do know they have some level of intelligence.I would say there is a big difference between the two based on that and the possibility that Dragon Champions don't appear to have the ability to reproduce or duplicate themselves where as Glint could.. verdicts out with Aurine atm though as we don't know for sure if she can lay eggs as an Elder Dragon though being the "first of her kind" she might be able to.That might be a bit too cheap of a plot narrative though.. yay more scions now we can kill the rest etc.

@"Teratus.2859" said:I enjoy a good fallen trope too as well as self sacrifice trope.First time I remember that hitting me was when I was a young kid and I first watched Black Cauldren.. Gurgi sacrificing himself to save his only friends got me right in the child feels hahaha

I would have to say my most favorite fallen heroes would be Achilles and Anakin. I love the idea of portraying a suffering in literature and then turning it into a madness. Whether it is an uncontrollable rage (Achilles), a cold heartless fist (Anakin), or possibly in the case of Kralk. an unquenchable thirst.

I cannot say I've heard of
Black Cauldren
(sp?) though. Is that a book?

I think it's based on novels yea, but I know it as an old Disney movie from 1985, I used to have it on VHS when I was a kid and that one bit with Gurgi always used to make me sad haha Disney used to put some pretty dark stuff in their films back then.

Here's a clip from the movie if you're interested (Gurgi is that little dog looking creature btw) This movie is probably one of the main reasons why I really got hooked into fantasy RPG's like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Guildwars, Final Fantasy etc and probably one reason why I enjoy dark classes like Necromancers XDFor a 35 year old animated movie it holds up pretty damn well imo I might just rewatch it again soon now because of this lol

@"Teratus.2859" said:Primordus's torment could be to burn everything in it's path, some extreme form of Pyromania or something.It's ideal world being one absent of life and consumed by fire and ash, which could explain why it has little to no interest in corrupting mortals and would rather create minions of stone and fire.

This makes a lot sense to me. I could see Primordius being perhaps the most primal of the EDs. Where Mordremoth or Jormag are very thoughtful and cunning, this potential hunger of Primordus seems thematically likely. Fire is a consuming force with no regard to boundaries. Perhaps Primordius's torment isn't just pyromantic in nature but verges on a type of filicide.

Primal definitely fits the bill, The Stone Summit journals refer to Primordus as a being a pure and ancient fire as well.Tapping into his power is actually what drove them to become what they are in Forging Steel.Everything they once were seems to have been burned away by fire.The last journal entry suggests as much with lines like "Somethings wrong, thoughts thin, burning, ash, summit..."

Perhaps this gives us a short peek into Primordus's personality.. much like the Stone summit his mind and senses were burnt away by primal fire long ago and he too is basically just an raging inferno in physical form, It would make sense since he's the Dragon of Fire and Conflagration..Conflagration basically giving emphasis to the kind of destruction he is capable of, the difference between a campfire and an inferno kinda thing.

It does make Primordus your typical big bad evil though.. however with Dragons becoming more complicated that might not be a bad thing in the end.Kralkatorrik ultimately didn't want to be that way and was more focused on consuming than just destroying.Primordus on the other hand being totally genocidal and wanting nothing but to watch the whole world burn away would in a way be more unique than the others.. plus it would also really highlight how dangerous he is if Anet does it right.Imagine going to an area of the world that we would expect to be full of nature and life only to get there and find everything is just dead and charred.

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People are talking about the fact that the EDs breath, bleed and have a heartbeat, to argue that they're organic creatures and therefore must have a sex(*), but given how ancient and a part of the universe they are, isn't it more likely that organic creatures were "created in their image" and only developed sex after that? I.e. in the GW universe, breath, blood and heartbeat might be part of a more fundamental aspect of existence, something higher than biology, whereas sex is only an aspect of the lesser, squishy, organic creatures.

(*) Everyone here saying "gender" when they mean sex. "Gender" seems to mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask nowadays so best to just avoid the term unless you clarify what you mean with it, e.g. biological gender (= sex) or grammatical gender (= pronouns, le/la in French, etc.)

In my head canon, the EDs have no sex and lesser creatures only attribute them a grammatical gender (and maybe an imagined sex) because they're used to thinking that way.

It's a more difficult question when it comes to the human gods. There's another thread right now discussing whether the gods might all actually be ascended humans, which would be the simplest explanation. If they're not originally human, but rather higher creatures like the EDs, then why do they seem to come in female and male form? (I'm assuming they can't sexually reproduce like organic creatures.) Only way to resolve that would be to conclude that in the GW universe, female and male are something beyond mundane biology, something that originally has a higher divine meaning, which is an idea I don't really like.

Another thing that comes to mind: Aurene came from an egg. Again, this might mean that female/male exists beyond organic biology in the GW universe, although it could also be that Glint was just imitating organic biology for the sake of familiarity. Has there ever been another dragon egg than Aurene's?

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@"Taylan.2187" said:(*) Everyone here saying "gender" when they mean sex. "Gender" seems to mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask nowadays so best to just avoid the term unless you clarify what you mean with it, e.g. biological gender (= sex) or grammatical gender (= pronouns, le/la in French, etc.)

I myself try to shy away from discussion of the gender of the EDs. Gender itself is a social construct more so than a biological description. Certain societies may base specific gender associations and/or roles off of biological factors, but it is not required. EDs do not technically participate in a society, therefore it would be unexpected if the EDs had a gender identity. To discuss the masculine and feminine designations of any particular ED as a "fact" seems futile to me.

That said, we should realize that there are Tyrian societies that have relationships to the EDs. Each particular race will view the EDs (as well the Gods) through their own cultural lenses. These various races of Tyria will ascribe characteristics and descriptions to the EDs that may be viewed as masculine, feminine, or some degree of from within that society . When the Sons of Svanir ascribe a masculine gender to Jormag, for example, we are learning about SoS's viewpoint and not particularly of Jormag itself.

It is for these reason I initially leaned into discussing biological sex more so than the initial discussion of gender. I found it interesting to discuss particular physical characteristics of the EDs because it makes them seem more real. To theorize that EDs may reproduce in a manner similar to bees, that their minions act with a hive mentality, that they collect magic which other races then "harvest" makes them hypothetically seem plausible in some other reality. Therein lies the keystone of a good story, plausibility.

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Agreed. I wonder about one thing though:

@Drgnfly.5812 said:Each particular race will view the EDs (as well the Gods) through their own cultural lenses.

Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans, and it's being claimed that they brought humans to Tyria. They seem to have a sex, which some older races on Tyria (jotun, kodan, dwarves) also seem to have, casting doubt to the claim that they're really so different to the humanoid races that existed in Tyria before the arrival of the gods.

Theoretically it could be that the gods created humans in mammalian form so they would fit in to Tyria, and that they then assumed a humanoid shape themselves to feel more familiar, although I find this a bit far-fetched. I think it would be a lot more interesting if it were revealed that the gods were originally mammals descending from some other race in Tyria, who found a way to garner so much magic that they could then create a new race to represent themselves and be worshipped.

More generally I wonder how, if at all, Tyrian lore can be reconciled with biology and evolution. Given that the EDs breathe, bleed and have a heartbeat, it would require either some far-fetched explanation, or a revelation that even the EDs are actually organic creatures that merely garnered a ton of magical power. Would be compatible with your bee theory I guess.

Then there are creatures from the mists... Are there any creatures in GW2 lore that come entirely from outside Tyria but still have a shape akin to creatures in Tyria? (Be it serpent, bird-like, humanoid, or else.) I guess that would make it difficult to reconcile the GW2 universe with biology and evolution.

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@Taylan.2187 said:Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans, and it's being claimed that they brought humans to Tyria. They seem to have a sex, which some older races on Tyria (jotun, kodan, dwarves) also seem to have, casting doubt to the claim that they're really so different to the humanoid races that existed in Tyria before the arrival of the gods.

Admittedly the gods of Tyria do seem to exist within their own society. They interact with each other, impose their will on each other, and are capable of given physical birth. I wasn't trying to make the argument that the gods of Tyria have no gender identity. Only that the majority of attributes that are used to describe the gods has to do with how any particular race sees them. For instance, Humans see near omnipotent entities worthy worship while Asura see vessels whose existence can be rationally predicted.

And perhaps your right. It is possible that the gods of Tyria walked through the Mists and elevated an already existing species thereby creating humanity. Perhaps the gods crafted humanity from clay and bone as speculated by the asura Xakk. I would love to create some solid answers to these and many questions concerning the lore of Tyria. Though I suspect the developers at ArenaNet prefer the nebulous nature of this lore for more pragmatic reasons.

I do remember a long time ago there used to be a lot of fan fiction that had been written about Tyria. People crafted intricate stories explaining the skills and events that existed in the original game. I can no longer remember or even find an archive of those sites, but I would love to reread those ideas. Properly drawn upon and fleshed out I would think they would provide a treasure trove of ideas for the developers. Much like how some of the Star Wars fan fiction had an impact on the later released movies.

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@Drgnfly.5812 said:

@"Taylan.2187" said:Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans...and perhaps your right. It is possible that the gods of Tyria walked through the Mists and elevated an already existing species thereby creating humanity. Perhaps the gods crafted humanity from clay and bone as speculated by the asura Xakk. I would love to create some solid answers to these and many questions concerning the lore of Tyria. Though I suspect the developers at ArenaNet prefer the nebulous nature of this lore for more pragmatic reasons.

I tend to agree with you. I believe humanity was cultivated from another, source race. The GWP Manuscripts reveal a relationship between the Forgotten and the Gods, so it's possible that the Gods grafted humanity from them. Thruuln the Lost also talks about a relationship between the Gods and the jotun, and I guess that is another source race from which humanity might've been seeded.

If the jotun turn out to be the vine through which humanity emerged, I think that the norn might be prototype humans who were largely, but not completely, cleansed of torment.

How was this achieved? Probably by sacrificing jotun atop the bloodstone and using a resurrection ceremony similar to that employed by the White Mantle to restore Lazarus the Dire's form. The difference would be that the physical form of the jotun candidate was changed between each round of sacrifice until the norn emerged. The grafting of norn from jotun might be what Thruuln refers to when he says that the jotun were "gaining" on the gods.

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