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How Did the Charr get so Advanced?


Mars Balearicus.7138

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@Mars Balearicus.7138 said:But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

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@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@"Mars Balearicus.7138" said:But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions and getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Mars Balearicus.7138" said:But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions
and
getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

That might have been how it went. Im going on years old memory here. Though, it wouldn't explain why the charr didn't become the preeminent ocean power from then on since they were the ones who had the only mass producible engine that didn't rely on the tides. For all intents and purposes, they had the ability for modern warships vs wooden technology that would've been comparitavely ancient and obsolete. Either way, it is confirmation of advanced tech that was specifically built for the war in the absence of relying on magical solutions of the Flame Legion shamans.

edit: perhaps the coming of the undead pressured the charr Legions into sharing the engine with Lions Arch in an effort to strengthen them to create a buffer which in turn, would inevitably bleed out to the other races city states since LA was so integrated.

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@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@"Mars Balearicus.7138" said:But is all of that confirmed? (Referring to both of your guys' posts)

The book about the founding of lions arch did confirm that the mechanical engine was specifically invented by the charr to defeat humanity who only had sailboats and the rare magic powered boat but mainly depended on the rising tides to be able to launch their ships. Luckily, peace had begun to blossom by the time the engine was thoroughly tested.

The impression I got was that it was a combination of the port that the Charr were using also getting flooded, and by the time they recovered from that, Kryta had already lost most of its sea trade and coastal possessions
and
getting from Ascalon to Kryta by sea required going past Orr. The idea of attacking Kryta from sea with a powered ship went from "this could be an effective way to hurt them and divert resources from Ascalon" to "this is no longer viable".

There was an attempt at a peace overture in the period covered by the book, but that was ruined by the protagonists unknowingly intercepting the peace offerings, and the war was back into full force later in the book. The war is largely presented as similar to the Hundred Years War in real-world history - there are periods of high-intensity conflict and there are periods where there are lulls between major campaigns where people might start thinking about peace before something stirs the pot yet again.

That might have been how it went. Im going on years old memory here. Though, it wouldn't explain why the charr didn't become the preeminent ocean power from then on since they were the ones who had the only mass producible engine that didn't rely on the tides. For all intents and purposes, they had the ability for modern warships vs wooden technology that would've been comparitavely ancient and obsolete. Either way, it is confirmation of advanced tech that was specifically built for the war in the absence of relying on magical solutions of the Flame Legion shamans.

Geography, pretty much. Ascalon itself is landlocked - the charr port was probably somewhere in the general vicinity of where the Labyrinthine Cliffs are today. Presumably it's possible to get there from Ascalon even if a direct route wasn't available to players in either game, but it's probably a difficult enough trip that the logistics to supply a significant fleet operating from that port would be a nightmare. Furthermore, any attempt to set out from there requires passing through the Straits of Devastation, which probably wan't practical once Zhaitan had locked down that area, until the Pact founded Fort Trinity.

(Even then, the Straits of Devastation have some pretty narrow spots for taking an ocean-going vessel through, to the point where if what's shown in-game is genuinely representative, portage is probably required to get a ship across.)

So it seems to be a matter of having the technology, but not having the ports necessary to form a viable fleet.

Which, to relate this discussion to present events, might be part of the reason why Bangar is interested in the Verdant Cascades - it provides a more practical base from which to attack Kryta from the north, either by land or across water.

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Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and damn the rest.

I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

Definatley Charr first. But not kitten the rest or else they'd just be another NPC group that doesn't work with anybody. Heck even those guys are willing to work with each other from time to time.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Like, I legitimately do not get this push amongst some to make the charr seem what they are not.

They have always intended to be warlike and belligerent. That is quite literally meant to be their appeal. They don't care about what others think about them, they look out for the charr first and kitten the rest.

I do not see what is wrong with that, it's a fantasy race, trying to identify with them and pin real life values to them is bizarre to me.

Like the charr for what they are, not for what you want them to be or what you think they represent.

I think there is a degree to which the charr are a race in transition. They're shifting from being a race focused on war (which is supported by industry) to a culture focused on industry (which happens to be useful for war). Bangar is the holdout of the old ways - Smodur probably wants to achieve peace so his nation can grow rich selling automobiles and tractors.

That warlike past does need to be recognised, however. Modern charr may not be (all) stuck in the thinking of their ancestors, but their society has been structured along military lines throughout their recorded history, and they've only recently started to consider peace itself to be something worth fighting for.

They're a race that have been warmongers for pretty much all of their history...but one which is on the cusp of growing into something more if they can resist the efforts of Bangar and his ilk to keep them stuck in traditional ways of thinking. And I personally consider that to be a large part of their appeal. You don't need to whitewash their history for them to be awesome. What makes them truly awesome is their potential to outgrow that history, to break out of that rut they've been stuck in for centuries.

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Yeah, they're entire societal structure encompasses being multiple branches of a huge military machine. They're entire history is composed of them conquering lands and people, including themselves. There really is no real arguement for them not being a warlike people. I think some people have a problem reconciling being a completely warlike culture with having allies. But the two don't need to be in conflict. And I think Anet has done a good job of portraying that.

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@"Dustfinger.9510" said:Yeah, they're entire societal structure encompasses being multiple branches of a huge military machine. They're entire history is composed of them conquering lands and people, including themselves. There really is no real arguement for them not being a warlike people. I think some people have a problem reconciling being a completely warlike culture with having allies. But the two don't need to be in conflict. And I think Anet has done a good job of portraying that.

The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as they feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

(It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

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We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:

The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as they feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

(It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

Absolutlely very dangerous. I would say though, that that danger isn't relegated specifically to the charr. It just seems to be the ever present danger of national relationships. We know humanities propensity to turn on their former allies as the need for them lessens from the Guild Wars. And we know that any political ties can be severed by any new change in leadership. Bangar may do that, but that would put him squarely in the realm of every other NPC faction who gets gang banged by all the other playable races.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.Bringing the legions together, chasing Jormag through the mountains, now this? Bangar is a busy man.

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@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:We already know that centaur are probably going to be involved in the story from the trailer, and the human slaves that were also seen.

Bangar and his army are going into the Woodland Cascades next update, the only logical explanation is that he’s going to ally with the centaur and is aiming to attack Kryta.Bringing the legions together, chasing Jormag through the mountains, now this? Bangar is a busy man.

From what we've been told about Bangar, what he's been saying, and who his allies are, wiping out humanity from Tyria and founding an empire from their conquered lands seems to be Bangar's endgame (he boasts about how his "charr imperium will extend from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha"). Jormag he views as a means to an end - if Aurene is willing to fight for humanity he needs his own Elder Dragon to offset her, and if she isn't, then having his own Elder Dragon would just make everything easier.

@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

The dangerous thing is that up to now, they've had allies largely on a basis of "if one of my enemies is fighting my more dangerous enemy instead of me, I'm better off, and I can probably trust them not to stab me in the back as long as
they
feel that the common enemy is a bigger threat". Now we're seeing a split between the side who thinks that maybe the enemy of their enemy can still be their friend even after the common enemy is gone, and the side led by Bangar who's convinced that with the common enemy gone, the original war is certain to resume sooner or later.

One of the fortunate things is that Smodur is firmly in the first category, and Bangar can't strike directly at Ebonhawke without going through Iron Legion territory, so he needs to find another route if he wishes to attack. But we know the charr have crossed the mountains and attacked Kryta from the north before.

(It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

Absolutlely very dangerous. I would say though, that that danger isn't relegated specifically to the charr. It just seems to be the ever present danger of national relationships. We know humanities propensity to turn on their former allies as the need for them lessens from the Guild Wars. And we know that any political ties can be severed by any new change in leadership. Bangar may do that, but that would put him squarely in the realm of every other NPC faction who gets gang banged by all the other playable races.

There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:

There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

That's a good point. I was going to bring up that the charr are multiple nations who have generally gotten along but you addressed that well. I would say that one big thing Smodur has in his favor is the more global mindset of the playable nations, due to the dragon awakening. This means that charr are incentivized by more options and benefits and quality of life from more nations while they are discouraged by the greater unity of a multination alliance including one that regulates and manages international travel. I think any real effort for the charr to go back to old ways would depend on the humans, sylvari and asura 's relationship to also fail. In fact, we see individual factions who don't want peace from every race are simply not globally successful. And the only real time they stand a chance (short of making themselves into living gods) is when they get allies from other races who are similarly minded.

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@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

There's a degree of this, but we've also seen that humans can achieve long-term peaceful relations with other races, even if there is also a lot of precedent for agreements to fall apart when one side gets greedy or xenophobic. For charr, establishing anything deeper than a "I won't attack you for now because I have something bigger to fight" with non-charr is uncharted territory. Smodur seems to have decided that the distinction is unimportant - making an agreement with non-charr is no different to making an agreement with a rival charr legion you had previously been at war with. For Bangar, however, that distinction remains very important. Charr above all.

That's a good point. I was going to bring up that the charr are multiple nations who have generally gotten along but you addressed that well. I would say that one big thing Smodur has in his favor is the more global mindset of the playable nations, due to the dragon awakening. This means that charr are incentivized by more options and benefits and quality of life from more nations while they are discouraged by the greater unity of a multination alliance including one that regulates and manages international travel. I think any real effort for the charr to go back to old ways would depend on the humans, sylvari and asura 's relationship to also fail. In fact, we see individual factions who don't want peace from every race are simply not globally successful. And the only real time they stand a chance (short of making themselves into living gods) is when they get allies from other races who are similarly minded.

Yeah, there's a point where Smodur comments regarding Bangar "and he knew he'd lose". He's referring to Bangar taking on Iron and Ash, but broadly speaking, there's also an interracial quasi-alliance going on and any race that goes against that is going to be in trouble. Pre-truce, the sylvari and asura were both somewhat human-leaning but still largely neutral, probably largely because human-charr history is murky enough that it's hard to say which was really in the right. If one side unilaterally breaks the truce afterwards, though, that side is going to be viewed as the aggressor, and the other races are probably going to support the side that was attacked against the faction that is now seen as the overall threat to peace. Whether asura and sylvari would actively fight on behalf of humans against charr is hard to say, but giving one side full access to asura magitech while the other is completely denied such would probably be decisive, considering that the charr-human war has mostly been one of stalemate and phony war outside of the odd gamechanger such as the Searing. While the charr probably are more powerful overall militarily than Kryta, the gap is not so great that Kryta wasn't able to stalemate and occasionally push back against them, and it's possible that Elona might become a factor in any resumed hostilities.

To offset that, Bangar needs to not just manage to unite the charr fully under himself, he'd also need to reinforce the legions with as many allies as he can get. Centaurs make for a natural ally, especially if he's willing to cede Kryta to the centaurs (or at least claim to until it's their turn for the chopping block).

Mind you, I think another side of it is that Iron and Ash naturally see more benefit to being part of a multiracial system. Iron is an industrial powerhouse, and Ash's espionage skills seem to be applicable to commerce as well (see, for instance, Evon Gnashblade). Blood, on the other hand, is mostly specialised in simply being soldiers. They're not actually as one-dimensional as that statement might imply at face value, but it does seem as if they're the legion that's most likely to be left behind in times of peace, and therefor it makes sense that Bangar would be the most militaristic of the Imperators.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:(It'd be interesting to see if Bangar manages to recruit centaur allies, come to think on it. We've been told before that the centaurs are essentially trapped in the lands north of Kryta, so presumably the Verdant Cascades have been centaur territory up until now unless the tengu there were strong enough to maintain dominance over the region.)

That may very well be the case. Back in Core Tyria we already learned this piece of information about a potential centaur-Flame Legion alliance from undercover agents if we were a member of Order of Whispers:

Fural Rageseeker: We sent out some agents to keep an eye on the centaurs to the west. There are reports that centaurs have been seen meeting with the Flame Legion. If that's true, it's quite concerning.

Assuming that some of the defectors from Efram's Flame splinter group were aware (or even part of) these early tentative probings for an alliance with the centaurs, Bangar may be using the intel of the Flame defectors working alongside his renegades to reach out to the centaurs in Woodland Cascades. Although the centaurs have weakened in the aftermath of Ulgoth's demise and the failed Siege of Divinity's Reach (which curiously only saw some of the Harathi aiding the White Mantle there with no sign of the Modniir overlords who tend to lead the centaur alliance), it's possible that the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has arisen in the power vacuum) will be more than happy to gain new charr allies now that the centaurs' White Mantle supporters are gone. One can only hope that by this time we'll also encounter centaur civilians and rebels who wish to overthrow the tyrannical military dictatorship while we could use charr and sylvari as negotiators for a potential human-centaur peace treaty now that Jennah has the evidence to prove that Caudecus was deliberately playing Ulgoth and the centaurs to keep the war raging while pinning the blame of human atrocities against centaurs on the Queen's Seraph.

It also begs the question what the rest of the Flame Legion is doing at this time; they're certainly not supporting Efram, but they also shouldn't be supporting Bangar either. Efram is only leading a small splinter group and is not widely recognized as a Flame Imperator candidate yet, and we know that Flame Imperator Baelfire, Hierophant Improaster and two tribunes have fallen since personal story, but realistically the Flame Legion should still have at least four tribunes left (if the Flame Legion has the same number of tribunes as the Iron Legion has) to lead various splinter groups as well as a potential replacement for the late Hierophant Improaster in the shaman caste. It would be interesting if Crecia's sire, who is said to be a high-ranking shaman, has become this new Hierophant, and we'd witness some lovely family reunion between the two; after all, Crecia still has unfinished business with the Flame Legion based on what we learn from her backstory in Bound by Blood.

We've also yet to hear what has become of the Molten Alliance and whoever its dredge and Flame Legion charr leaders are as devs have confirmed that the leaders of Scarlet's alliances (unknown leaders of the Molten and Toxic Alliances, and Mai Trin of the Aetherblades) did not participate in the Battle for Lion's Arch (they instead handled the logistics of the campaign) and are still out there plotting something. We've also been told that the Flame Legion excommunicated any Flame Legion who joined the Molten Alliance once that alliance failed in their objectives, so this will be yet another splinter group to potentially worry about (particularly if the charr leader in the Molten Alliance is not just some centurion but potentially a dishonored Flame tribune).

Likewise, the Iron Legion has a potentially huge Bangar sympathizer within its ranks: the so far unseen Tribune Fume Brighteye who dislikes the Ebonhawke Treaty because of what the humans did to her sire, is among the top three most respected Iron tribunes (alongside Mia Kindsleshot and Bhuer Goreblade), and is bucking to be the next imperator. That kind of ambitious, vicious and cunning female with a sympathetic backstory would be the perfect candidate for being one of Bangar's moles in the Black Citadel as she bides her time to stage a coup and seize the Claw of the Khan-Ur while Smodur is busy fighting Bangar's forces in Woodland Cascades. We've yet to learn about the Ash tribunes in the Ash Legion homelands, but we know from Grothmar Valley dialogue that some Ash Legion (who are not part of the renegade expedition) are already planning to make preparations for something under Malice's nose, so who knows if some Fume-like peace-hating tribune may be staging a coup against Malice at the same time that Fume makes her move against Smodur if it comes to that. One can only hope that we'll also run into the rest of the Blood Legion tribunes as well as Rytlock and Crecia's Stone Warband as the warband members are all said to be notable military officers in the Blood Legion. :)

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