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Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.


Josiah.2967

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I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to just switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

@Brujeria.7536 said:I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

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@"Obtena.7952"

I am lost. You are now justifying the imbalance based on "theme balance" .

The reaper theme from Arenanet:

Slow and hard-hitting, these deadly combatants call out the impending doom of their enemies with piercing shouts....the reaper wades into melee receiving and dealing blows knowing nothing can save its foes!

— Reaper release notes

Nothing about that says, does significantly less DPS than other DPS specs.

All other successful MMO's balance to make sure every class has a competitive spec for endgame PVE. GW2 now has the widest spread I have seen in ages.

Then again this is exactly why I switched to the OP Guardian and Mesmer, and am now calling nerfs in those threads. They are so boring. Guardian seems easier to master too.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

@"Brujeria.7536" said:I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

Well balance means equality either between all options or between the direct opposites. If you look at equality in a certain game mode you need to consider what this gamemode values. In PVP Mobility is highly valued for decaping and map controll. In PVE not so. The biggest feat for PVE is DPS. Its really not hard to balance all classes at the same DPS number if they spec for it. This has no effect on any other gamemode. Its just numbers, no functionality changes. The other factor that matters here is team support. This support has more facets, healing, preventing damage, boons, corruptions, condition controll, stealth etc. and can not be balanced as easily as its depending on the encounters and its value is not as easily measured and streamlined as dps is.

But given that some professions with builds that spec for 0 team support and full focus on damage have less dps than other classes WITH support is mind boggling and the epitome of no balance. You can balance and value support differently, but the core value you need in ANY encounter in PVE is Damage, and damage is soley measured on the numbers.

Also a class can have a good performance and a good theme. A "good" theme is highly up to the liking and sense of the individual playing. Person A can say Engineers have a great theme, Person B can say Engineers have the worst theme. It does not matter as you cant compare themes. You dont balance between two factors that have completly no connection. They could swap the skills of professions and mechanics around and it would still not matter. If they give The current guardian profession mechanic to necros, "Orders" instead of Vitues and Guardian "Angelic Form" instead of Deathshroud it would still not matter. Its still Performance vs. Performance and Theme Vs. Theme.

Only the performance matters in terms of balance for PVE. And the performance really should be the same across all professions and all playtypes of these professions.

That does not mean however, that the professions should FEEL the same. The playstyle currently is very distinct, and that is wonderfull. But again, the playstyle should equal the same performance, if you willingly spec for the same goal which, in case of PvE, is DPS.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.Why not?I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).So what you're saying is incorrect ...You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...
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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.Why not?I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).So what you're saying is incorrect ...You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

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@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both. That's the nature of this game. Anything is easier said than done ... but if a player values performance over theme, they know how to do that in this game ... rolling characters of different classes.

@Brujeria.7536 said:I totally agree, balancing DPS by the numbers is not exactly hard. Also from a logical standpoint it doesnt make any sense that pure DPS specs with 0 utility and teambuffs such as reaper does less damage than a warrior or elementalist which naturally can easily provide support.

The balance decisions in PVE are really mind boggling and make no sense.

That true ... it's not hard ... that's why it's really easy to conclude it's not Anet's target to do so based on how the game is designed. ANet's balance decisions DO make sense if you aren't burdened with self-imposed ideas of what balance means.

Well balance means equality either between all options or between the direct opposites.

Sure, that's your definition of it. Clearly, Anet has their own. Frankly, what Anet does is not what I would call balance ... or what anyone else would call it, but that's just semantics. Whatever they 'balance' to, it's obviously not some notion of equivalent performance between classes.

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@"Josiah.2967" said:I am lost. You are now justifying the imbalance based on "theme balance" .

You are lost, because you are imposing your own ideas of what balance means on a game you don't control. I'm not justifying anything ... it's EXACTLY how this game has worked for almost 8 years now.

People need to get with the program here. Anet isn't wrong in their approach just because they don't conform to what other studios do in other games for balancing. They don't have to, because the game doesn't need classes to have equivalent performance at some player-defined level for players to succeed.

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there is a lot of things you have to consider when looking at the dps of specs. for example that necromancer is a selfbuffing beast which gets up 25 might, 25 vuln on the enemy and 100% critchance ezpz without sacrificing anything. apart from that its basically unkillable and has a not too bad burst with wells when being solo.

now if you are a person which never raided and is only playing arround in some loose groups / only openworld without coordination at all and looks at some dps table tailored to raids and concludes: the balance is bad! ...then i can only say one thing: you. are. wrong.in this case the balance is only bad in one single area in the game: in raids or other 10 man highly organized group content with absolute top players which alwas give their 100%.....and purly in raids under the condition that you see this single dps build, we don't want to forget that necro for example has one of the most op healer carry builds and another one which even puts out quite some damage for being a healer carry build.

i am not saying that the blanace is good btw. i also don't know where anets goal is in terms of damage or if they even have one.

but in the end there is more then raids in this game. in the end there are high skill ceiling builds like condition weaver and you can call it unbalanced 24/7 but the real scenario is: there are only a handful players which can even pump out that shit.and then there is the rest of the world. install arc and look at any worldboss where you are still fully buffed with might and shit and see what players are doing. dog shit dps. even those which copypasted snowcrows and think they are good.

in this game there is only one thing that makes you have that big ass dps...and thats your own fucking skill. everything else is just potentionally something something for most people. get on that reaper, invest that time and git gud and then proceed to outdps anyone everywhere. sure, now you could fare better on another class...but in the end it doesn't matter that much.right now there are a lot of builds close to eachother and through the balance change we got quite a bit higher numbers apart from necromancer, thats true. but does it matter for 99% of the players? no it doesn't. simply because necro is solo still one of the top tier classes one can play. its a fucking wet dream for anything. 5 target group pull on 1,2k range? check. perma might, 100% critchance and 25 vuln? check. shitton of blinds / cc? check? quickness? check. has a second hp bar? check. aoe? everything necro does is aoe wth.

if you really want to discuss game balance on a higher level then you need to get an idea of the whole game first. its not enough to look at snowcrows and say: this class is dogshit because it has way too low dps. you are making a fool out of yourself.

you did not even include killtime / phase time which is already a huge factor to descide if a condi build or a power build is better for something. or cooldown times. how good your own team fares to really make a class shine since you can push on the whole rotation with timings well better. the only thing you did was looking at the chart and concluded: this profession bad. master of balance for sure.in the end only a handful of people can push far enough to do certain things. take your usual vg pug / avg guild group, put in a reaper and they all will do relativly compareable dps except if you got that one player which puts in some more effort than the rest.

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It is time to stop hiding behind unjustified overpowered unbalanced specs while trying to justify others being low. It's time to have a level playing field where you can't hide behind your OP profession.

I myself am a mediocre Guardian and Mesmer easily doing 5k more dps than my main while still learning the rotation in raids. I can easily do 8k more on HP sponges that allow me to focus on DPS with my mesmer. So much easier to play in raids too without having to manage life force and having better survivability. I can even take more damage without sacrificing my dps. It's time for balance with end game content. End game PVE currently includes T4 fractals, Stike Missions, and Raida.

If you really don't want to buff the weak, it's time for nerf hammers to really do some damage to the top dps specs. Especially the ones that have been consistantly top tier for years.

Note: Shared buffs will always be more valuable thsn self buffs. I am not even asking to take that into consideration for DPS balance, but maybe we should.

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No one is hiding behind anything. There are game design decisions that result in Anet not needing balanced DPS between classes. It's not a debate about who's wrong or right; it's simply a recognition that GW2 isn't designed like a typical MMO and that leads to the situation we have with classes. Anet gives players choice. WHATEVER criteria you want to use to filter those classes, there should be an option in those 9 classes to give you what you want. If you want DPS, you need to choose DPS.

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As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

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@"Bealis.6023" said:As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

Unfortunately it would solve nothing. Doing that would make players with a seemingly harder to play main profession cry that there is no reason to play their profession because the seemingly easiest one can do the job "more reliably". We've got years of this argument already, we all know how it would end up.

The point is that there will always be a profession that will hold the title of "most effective profession" and this profession will be favored in PvE content and complain about by other professions. When it was elementalists it was the case, when it was core condi ranger it was the case, when it was necromancer's epi bounce it was the case and I'm pretty sure guardian, thief, revenant, mesmer and warrior faced the same thing.

Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Bealis.6023" said:As long as raids are just a small part of the game, I believe it could be smarter to actually rework raid mechanics, than to balance all professions to raids as a template.For instance placing max dps ceiling one can do to raid bosses and lowering their health a bit.

Unfortunately it would solve nothing. Doing that would make players with a seemingly harder to play main profession cry that there is no reason to play their profession because the seemingly easiest one can do the job "more reliably". We've got years of this argument already, we all know how it would end up.

Ultimately you should be able to play the profession you wanna play and not be punished because you wanna play that profession. If all professions would do about equal damage you have exactly 2 types of scenarios: Players who want the most optimal result and choose their profession based on that factor (as it is now in raids). And players that play the profession they like. Nobody would take any harm in that scenario.

The point is that there will always be a profession that will hold the title of "most effective profession" and this profession will be favored in PvE content and complain about by other professions. When it was elementalists it was the case, when it was core condi ranger it was the case, when it was necromancer's epi bounce it was the case and I'm pretty sure guardian, thief, revenant, mesmer and warrior faced the same thing.

Epi bounce was really an edge case as it was highly dependant on the encounter, which is bad. Just as bad as the damage difference between hitboxes is, its just a unreliable mess. Speaking about the "most effective profession" its totaly fine to have differences in DPS, 3%, 5% is all fine and reasonable, but the huge gaps we currently have are not.

Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

Its actually not that hard to balance necro for DPS even with these things in mind. All condition manipulation comes from traits or some utility skills, if you bump up the utlity skills that should increase damage and also the traits that should increase damage you fixed the problem. Pick either DPS or these aspects. The best part here: it are just number changes, you dont need to do any mechanical changes at all.

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@Brujeria.7536 said:

Truth be told, the necromancer have half of it's mechanisms (boon corruption/condition manipulation) only really working in sPvP environment while the other half (the shroud) hover in an awkward state where it can't deal to much damage due to it's fondamentally defensive nature yet is the recipient of all the effort of the balance team to give the necromancer some dps. Design wise it's like trying to put a large round piece into a tiny square hole, it's no wonder it doesn't work.

Its actually not that hard to balance necro for DPS even with these things in mind. All condition manipulation comes from traits or some utility skills, if you bump up the utlity skills that should increase damage and also the traits that should increase damage you fixed the problem. Pick either DPS or these aspects. The best part here: it are just number changes, you dont need to do any mechanical changes at all.

That's not fixing the problem that's just adding damage by playing with numbers. Not acknowledging that some designs/mechanisms are broken and need fixing is the main issue of this game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.Why not?I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).So what you're saying is incorrect ...You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

I see what you were trying to say and I understand you, but you were not saying that though. You were saying: "but they aren't going to get both". You didnt say: You cannot expect to get both! There's a big difference there.

Normally I'd never call someone out on something small like this, but you're notoriously well-known for not even once admitting you might be a tiny bit on the wrong side of the spectrum, or that you've made a mistake. And I've got a feeling you're still not going to do that right now ... (if you do, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though :))

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Why when its the smallest population of content, is PvE so it likely doesn't matter and it also doesn't effect anyone else really. So your damage is not the highest in the group; Its not like it matters when there are no new raid wings in the works and all of that potential content is being pushed into strikes/visions.

It simply is not fun to know your not competitive in Strike Missions, Raids, or Fractals. Since they are creating more Fractals and Strike Missions. This content needs to be balanced.

Then choose better ... play a class that is 'fun'. There isn't a need to balance when you have enough choice to give you what you want.

That's a lot easier said than done. If you invested a lot of time in gearing your main character, and you now get to a point (say the PvE endgame) where that class is undesirable at best, it's not THAT easy to
just
switch class. There is not a very good say unlocking and/or template system in place where ANet caters truly easy class switching! There's absolutely not!

People have to balance what they want against the time they invest to get it. Anyone that has played this game for any significant period of time knows that they have to choose their class for theme or performance ... but they aren't going to get both.Why not?I just happen to love the theme of the guardian ... AND it happens to be one of the best performing classes in the game (actually in pretty much every gamemode right now).So what you're saying is incorrect ...You just have to be lucky when you choose your class by theme ...

No it's not incorrect at all. No one should expect that they should get performance and theme with whatever choice they want to play. You did get lucky .. but that doesn't make what I said wrong.

I see what you were
trying
to say and I understand you, but you were not saying that though. You were saying: "but they aren't going to get both". You didnt say: You cannot
expect
to get both! There's a big difference there.

Normally I'd never call someone out on something small like this, but you're notoriously well-known for not even once admitting you might be a tiny bit on the wrong side of the spectrum, or that you've made a mistake. And I've got a feeling you're still not going to do that right now ... (if you do, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though :))

If you know how notoriously well-known I am, you will know I'm not going to go down arguing something as pedantic as this with you. You admit you understand what I was trying to say ... I will leave it right there. I don't care if you were wrong or right. The point is that people have choices to make to get the classes that conform to whatever factors they want to base those choices on. It's always been like that in any MMO I've ever played and GW2 isn't an exception to that. IF some combination of more than one factor is something a player wants and they get it on one class, great for them.

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I feel like I have to point out that buffing something like reaper to the dps level of other professions would be a complete disaster balance wise. The other tools that a build brings absolutely matter, but many people like to ignore this whenever it's not convenient. If reaper had top tier damage potential we would enter the least diverse and most stale meta that this game has ever seen. The meta comp would probably look something like 7x reaper, 1x dps FB, 1x alacrigade, and maybe 1x druid. You could easily afford to have only 1 dps FB to provide a bit of quickness, because reapers already give themselves tons of free might and quickness for no effort whatsoever. Then you also have the high HP pool and shroud hp covering for your mistakes way better than any other class can, which makes reaper a safe choice as well. So you end up with even casuals able to make groups with mostly reapers and doing all the content. You'd end up with most groups doing even more dps than before and with less risk. There would be no reason to take any other class ever.

Reaper is already the go to noob choice because of how easy it is to not be a burden to your group, and because it can function well even with bad supports. Let's not make it the top choice for every skill level while making the game into easymode. There needs to be a reward for actually taking a risk with squishier classes, or with classes that actually require your supports to know what they are doing.

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I can not believe what I am reading. Even if Reaper had the same max dps as abother spec, if they take any damage their dps would go down. I am ok with up to a 5% difference.

Reaper isn't the only low end. It is obviously by your responses it is significantly low end. Thank you for indirectly proving my point. The gap is way to big right now, to the point it is extremely unhealthy for the games end game content.

Reapers do not have good sustain in raids. Guardian has much better sustain in raids.

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@Josiah.2967 said:I can not believe what I am reading. Even if Reaper had the same max dps as abother spec, if they take any damage their dps would go down. I am ok with up to a 5% difference.

Reaper isn't the only low end. It is obviously by your responses it is significantly low end. Thank you for indirectly proving my point. The gap is way to big right now, to the point it is extremely unhealthy for the games end game content.

Reapers do not have good sustain in raids. Guardian has much better sustain in raids.

These things aren't being disagreed with. They just aren't relevant in this game. It's unhealthy? Maybe ... but not enough to bother changing it. Players ideas about how this should work are tainted by their expectations that aren't aligned with how this game is designed. The solution to this already exists: Choice.

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@Ganathar.4956 said:I feel like I have to point out that buffing something like reaper to the dps level of other professions would be a complete disaster balance wise. The other tools that a build brings absolutely matter, but many people like to ignore this whenever it's not convenient. If reaper had top tier damage potential we would enter the least diverse and most stale meta that this game has ever seen. The meta comp would probably look something like 7x reaper, 1x dps FB, 1x alacrigade, and maybe 1x druid.

How exactly is this different to current meta with that amount of guardians/mesmers stacked on overy boss? Currently you are stacking firebrands in like every gamemode. Condi fb is so op that it can outburst multiple power builds and then there is the super balanced tome reset.

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@Ganathar.4956You're right because the shroud is a balance issue in itself (No tool should be able to shield health while dishing out top damage at the same time for extended duration).You're wrong because a poorly played reaper don't fare any better than any other profession poorly played.

Since meta builds have become dominant and advertised in GW2, players always turned themself toward what have been proven to be the most effective choices. Reaper's having competitive dps might prove to be more effective than elementalist having competitive dps but it doesn't mean that a poorly played reaper with competitive dps will be more effective than a well played elementalist.

In an ideal world you just play the profession that you're the most proficient in for the same damage potential. In GW2, you just ignore what's not proven to be effective. This is where the problem lie. It's not that the shroud isn't a broken mechanism. It is! But it doesn't mean either that the necromancer should be kept out of being competitive because it's broken. If anything balance should strive to fix what is broken in the shroud while at the same time make the profession competitive in an healthy way. (Something that ANet's devs seem to be completly oblivious about. They are set on specific designs for each profession and don't seem to care much whether those design are healthy or not for their in-game experience.)

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@Dadnir.5038 said:@Ganathar.4956You're right because the shroud is a balance issue in itself (No tool should be able to shield health while dishing out top damage at the same time for extended duration).You're wrong because a poorly played reaper don't fare any better than any other profession poorly played.

Not really, shroud does shit damage for core nec. For Reaper it does good damage, but is also limited and, if you want achieve any form of good DPS you need rotation, hence you cant choose when to go in shroud for defense unless you seriously hinder your own dps. Also you dont NEED that defense in the first place. Every other class can easily survive raid mechanics even without shroud, so your argument holds no value here. You arent forced to use shroud to survive as necro either.

Since meta builds have become dominant and advertised in GW2, players always turned themself toward what have been proven to be the most effective choices. Reaper's having competitive dps might prove to be more effective than elementalist having competitive dps but it doesn't mean that a poorly played reaper with competitive dps will be more effective than a well played elementalist.

No, there are 2 types of players: Players that play for the result - they will always play the meta class no matter what the FotM is. And players that play for fun or because they like a certain profession. These Players are naturally forced out of raids because of the HUGE dps difference. If they balance all professions roughly withing 5% of dps nothing would change for the META players, but everything changes for the players that play for fun. You can play your profession in raids, no matter what, you are not hindering anybody, you dont bring down the DPS. Really, it would have no downside for nobody.

In an ideal world you just play the profession that you're the most proficient in for the same damage potential. In GW2, you just ignore what's not proven to be effective. This is where the problem lie. It's not that the shroud isn't a broken mechanism. It is! But it doesn't mean either that the necromancer should be kept out of being competitive because it's broken. If anything balance should strive to fix what is broken in the shroud while at the same time make the profession competitive in an healthy way. (Something that ANet's devs seem to be completly oblivious about. They are set on specific designs for each profession and don't seem to care much whether those design are healthy or not for their in-game experience.)

Again shroud isnt broken in the slightest. You could say the same about any class. Why is elementalist allowed to have support and heals even though it is built for DPS? Why does it always have water attunement? Why does engineer have more toolbelt skills / heals / stunbreaks even though its meant for DPS? Why does rev have 2 healing skills and buff support even though its built for DPS? Why does Warrior deal DPS even if hes built for support? Nothing is wrong with the design of shroud. Its a limited set of skills which are even way too weak in PVE in terms of base shroud.

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