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Icebrood and Jormag


Hypnowulf.7403

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The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.

I'm always a little behind the curve playing content, I only just came off of LWS4 a little while ago. I've been doing plenty of reading about The Icebrood Saga but now I'm a good ways into it and it's some of my favourite content, hands down. The Bound by Blood zone was incredible, the Metal Legion... quelle excellence! I loved it. What a bloody madhouse it was. I've always wanted to drive the charriots too and I finally got my chance. This lead into some very, very cleverly written intrigue! Which is lovely as my partner and I live for intrigue. We quickly figured out that (caveat emptor, of course) Braham's guild probably weren't as evil as the vagueness were suggesting, that they might've been the ones to resist the Sons of Svanir rather than slaughtering all of the Vigil soldiers. Intrigue is fun!

Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great. We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?

I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

Anyway, I'm just glad that Jormag is non-binary. They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all. Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course. I'm hoping at the end of the day that the behaviour of Jormag comes down to three factors: 1.) they are being tormented but they're resisting it, 2.) they're out of touch and doesn't really know how to deal with mortals, but they want to heal them and end their suffering and their main and most effective means for that is mind control, and 3.) they might not be fully in control of their power and they might be unable to stop being so persuasive. Perhaps the torment makes it more difficult for Jormag to focus and control their powers.

I can only hope that Jormag turns out to not be as evil as they appear. What would be especially brilliant is if they lead into Cantha by having Jormag be a bit of a crazy parent; they love their thralls, they want to protect their thralls at all costs, so they're against anyone who would harm their thralls. At one point, my understanding is that they wanted to stop the cycle of destruction and creation by freezing the world and its oceans. Their goals have shifted since then due to the rise of Aurene, of course, as Aurene introduces some interesting new possibilities. One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.

Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering. Death and suffering seem to be buttons for Jormag, in that Jormag is all about preservation and the end of pain. If others are in pain it seems to drive Jormag a bit potty, perhaps it's an empathy thing that relates to their ability to connect with minds. So the potential for death and suffering that a Canthan invasion lead by the Deep Sea Dragon could cause is absolutely terrifying to them.

Anyway, I love where this is going. I appreciate what ArenaNet is doing here, it's the most fun content I've played thus far.

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From what little we know. the torment didn't make Kralk evil, it enhanced their rage, malice and destructive purpose. It was brought on by the consumption of too many conflicting magics which it was unable to balance internally.

Also, as far as we are aware, all Dragons are genderless and have been since the start. Jormag is the only they have been explicit about it.

I don't agree that humanising the Dragons was a positive move for the game either. I'm not going to elaborate too much more since I don't want to repeat ad infinum from other threads (necroing is not taboo btw where the topic is relevant), but to me it showed the writers didn't really have a grasp on what they wanted to do with the Dragons and instead fell back on giving them mortal motivations as the easy option. I don't think it has worked at all well either with the terrible Kralk ending being a prime example of how far off the path I think they have travelled.

A lot of people are playing up the underwater scene in the trailer as being tied to the DSD. I'm unconvinced yet any connection exists and that is mostly a scene tied in for other reasons. I also don't see why Jormag would care what the DSD is doing thousands upon thousands of miles away in a different continent when it hasn't cared about what Dragons closer to home were doing. We saw Mordemoth had great reach as it's vines headed right across into Ascalon. We didn't even get a glimmer of interest from Jormag and that was almost on the doorstep of Jormag's outer borders. I can't see why Jormag would feel any need to care about what happens in Cantha

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.It isn't tabbo in the lore forums, it just needs to be worthwhile.

Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great.ANet is so progressive that they declared this for all Elder Dragons eleven years ago in the form of being genderless ("0" is still technically "not-2").

It's funny to me how people are only just now figuring this all out, despite the Elder Dragons almost exclusively being called "it". Only Jormag and Kralkatorrik were exceptions, and in Jormag's case, it was because of sexists calling Jormag a him.

We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?This is incorrect on both accounts.

We should be thinking of the Elder Dragons as beyond people, because that's what they are. They are not humanoids, they're not standard mortals. They're beyond the standard scope of living beings.

As for Kralkatorrik, he was evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the why he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

This wouldn't make sense, given that the Six have been actively distancing themselves from mortals ever since the Exodus. They've been actively, slowly, ignoring their "chosen" regardless of faith, and they most certainly did not unleash the Elder Dragons if that's your implication.

They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all.It was implied by ANet during the Guild Chat following War Eternal that every Elder Dragon suffers from torment, but they suffer from it in their own unique way. The magical torment won't cause every Elder Dragon to seek "consume and destroy everything to end the pain" like it did with Kralkatorrik.

We can get glimpses of every Elder Dragon's (but the DSD's) modern goals. And this could hint at their pre-Torment goals too. To dumb it to the TL;DR:

  • Zhaitan was wanting to create and rule a kingdom of eternal "life" where people do not lose loved ones.
  • Jormag is shown wanting to give power and protection to those who seek it. While killing the rest.
  • Mordremoth is basically shown believing itself to be the world proper and source of life. Or at least seeking to become such.
  • Kralkatorrik was wanting to consume and destroy all things [in the hopes of ending its pain].
  • Primordus is not very interactive, but the only interaction we have is it seeking to kill everything - especially young dragons, which I find particularly curious.

Unfortunately, we can't really get a clear indication of their original goals given how drastically different Kralkatorrik's goal seems to have changed. From "prevent peace between mortals and dragons" to "consume/corrupt and destroy everything". Though I suppose it's not too great of a change between "bring war" and "bring destruction".

Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course.Glint was never an Elder Dragon thus didn't face torment. Aurene is unique and one of a kind, for still unexplained reasons.

And Jormag isn't feminine, despite the female voice actress.

One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.I do not see this, personally. Jormag's "weakness" is Primordus / primordial fire, after all. And it's been established that Jormag simply doesn't care about the deaths of its icebrood. This is shown, for example, in the utter lack of female icebrood norn - the reason for this is that the Sons of Svanir hunt down the female norn who get corrupted (the Sons hunt down icebrood in general to prove their strength to Jormag, but they particularly focus on female norn icebrood because "they're not worthy of Jormag's gifts").

I also do not associate the underwater scene with the Deep Sea Dragon. Instead, the seven scenes of the trailer seems to associate with the five maps we'll be getting in Icebrood Saga:

  • First scene is a dead charr holding her cub while the Blood Keep burns - Grothmar Valley, prologue.
  • Second scene is a bunch of kodan overlooking their dead - Bjora Marches, ep1-2.
  • Third scene is of centaurs pushing human slaves - map in Woodland Cascades, ep3-4.Those three maps/locations are confirmed, and the scenes match. The rest is speculative:
  • Fourth scene is the water bit - episodes 5-6, perhaps in Janthir Bay?
  • Fifth scene is marching in the Shiverpeaks - episodes 7-8, perhaps outside Eye of the North, atop of the Battledepths of GW1 (which is supposed to be roughly where Jormag is resting based on S3E3).
  • Final scene is Jormag marching on Hoelbrak - Icebrood Saga finale, not in a world map.

Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering.How does the DSD relate to Cantha at all?

First off, there's the fact that nothing actually ties the DSD to Cantha. By all indication of the forces it has pushed out, it is west of Tyria, not south.

Secondly, and far more important, the DSD does not corrupt living creatures, but instead is akin to Primordus. Primordus corrupts lava nad rock into destroyers; the DSD corrupts water. So even if the DSD has assaulted Cantha, it wouldn't have corrupted Canthan forces.

At best, for connecting the two, the DSD would have suddenly moved towards Cantha - instead of the implied path towards Tyria in core lore - and Cantha is requesting aide from Tyria. This doesn't quite work in connecting to Season5 though.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:As for Kralkatorrik, he was evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the why he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

Gotta ask, do you have a source for all this?

From what I recall, the statement that Kralkatorrik was not necessarily "good" before the Torment developed doesn't really say much regarding his motivations where it came to Kralkatorrik's vision. The statement that all Elder Dragons suffered from their equivalent of the Torment - including Zhaitan, the first to be killed - suggests that it was certainly a factor well before the dragons started getting killed and absorbing each other's magics. That certainly seems to have made things worse, but the description of the inside of Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny certainly seems, in light of what we saw in the instance, as an indication that the Torment was already pretty much in charge during the Dragonrise. And if it was in charge when Kralkatorrik had just woken up, it's likely that it was in charge the last time the Elder Dragons were active as well.

Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

I think there are plenty of interpretations of the implication that Kralkatorrik was still evil pre-Torment which are compatible with sane Kralkatorrik nevertheless approving of what he saw in the vision. Consider that the current storyline is essentially around the mystery of whether, despite having participated in the cycle time and time again, Jormag genuinely seeks an end to it rather than simply making a ploy to avoid being destroyed by a team that has already killed three Elder Dragons. It's possible that what was actually going on is that they all enthusiastically and greedily took part in the first cycle or few, and by the time their saner sides started to realise this was actually a bad thing, their various insanities had already set in. So Sane Kralkatorrik might have approved of the vision from the start, but with Torment fully in control, he was limited in what he could actually do to enact it... but it's possible that it was Sane Kralkatorrik that actually put Glaust on her initial steps towards becoming Glint.

Could be interesting is the discrepancies in Jormag's behaviour turn out to be because Jormag itself is hearing a voice that is not its own.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

Not sure about that. My interpretation of what Aurene said was more along the lines that if Bangar himself was removed, someone else would play the same part. Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned why Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death.

The game doesn't touch on it very much since there are only a handful of characters we interact with who can see the flow of time, but what we see suggests there is no free will on Tyria. Working under the assumption that this a pre-determistic reality then Kralk did everything they did because they were predestined to do it. Aurene seems to be suggesting this as well since she effectively told the Commander that Bangar has to do what Bangar is going to do.

I would disagree. I mean, our very first interactions with ":seeing the future" is entirely that it isn't set in stone and isn't certain - both with the asura Infinity Ball storyline, and A Light in the Darkness instance where the Pale Tree shows us a future which doesn't occur and outright tells us:

Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...

The entire thing about the Crystal Dragons' visions is that they're all self-fulfilling prophecies because of how they go about trying to prevent (or ensure in Glint's case) them.

In the case of Bangar, it seems a bit closer to what Drax said - it's not that Bangar has to do what Bangar is doing, but rather that even if we stop Bangar now, someone, sooner or later, will try doing the exact same thing, and that to stop such from happening, we cannot have Aurene just swoop in and solve our problem - we need to wait and let Bangar make another move, to prevent a repetition of events.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:As for Kralkatorrik, he
was
evil, even before torment. As mentioned by Randulf above. The torment was caused by Kralkatorrik's drive to consume magic. We don't quite have a clear indication of Kralkatorrik's original goals, but given what we were told, his original goal was to prevent peace with mortals. What we mainly lack is the
why
he didn't want peace with mortals. But in Episode 5 we learned that Kralkatorrik had a vision he hated, where there was a world of peace between mortals an dragons and he wasn't around, Glint followed this by saying he was afraid of his vision and his death; but in Episode 6, Kralkatorrik's "better" (because it wasn't a "good side") clarified that Elder Dragons do not fear anything, even death.

Which means Kralkatorrik fought against his vision - that was his goal, to prevent his vision from coming true - but the why was misunderstood ('fear of death') and never elaborated. We never learned
why
Kralkatorrik, who was not good, did not want a world of peace without him and instead fought to prevent both peace and his death. We can infer by the existence of torment that he fought against his vision by consuming magic to gain power, which led him to become tormented and thus changing his goal to "consume and destroy everything" as driven by his torment.

But TL;DR, Kralkatorrik was always "the bad guy", especially to mortals; the torment just changed him and made him even more destructive.

My theory is based off of the fact he loved his family despite not wanting peace with mortals - which makes me think of Kralkatorrik as a racist. That he hated mortals so greatly that he just simply refused the notion of peace with them, no matter what. And his refusal for peace was misunderstood as fear of death by Glint.

Gotta ask, do you have a source for all this?

From what I recall, the statement that Kralkatorrik was not necessarily "good" before the Torment developed doesn't really say much regarding his motivations where it came to Kralkatorrik's vision. The statement that
all
Elder Dragons suffered from their equivalent of the Torment - including Zhaitan, the first to be killed - suggests that it was certainly a factor well before the dragons started getting killed and absorbing each other's magics. That certainly seems to have made things
worse,
but the description of the inside of Kralkatorrik's mind in Edge of Destiny certainly seems, in light of what we saw in the instance, as an indication that the Torment was already pretty much in charge during the Dragonrise. And if it was in charge when Kralkatorrik had just woken up, it's likely that it was in charge the
last
time the Elder Dragons were active as well.

Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.

I think there are plenty of interpretations of the implication that Kralkatorrik was still evil pre-Torment which are compatible with sane Kralkatorrik nevertheless approving of what he saw in the vision. Consider that the current storyline is essentially around the mystery of whether, despite having participated in the cycle time and time again, Jormag genuinely seeks an end to it rather than simply making a ploy to avoid being destroyed by a team that has already killed three Elder Dragons. It's possible that what was actually going on is that they all enthusiastically and greedily took part in the first cycle or few, and by the time their saner sides started to realise this was actually a bad thing, their various insanities had already set in. So Sane Kralkatorrik might have approved of the vision from the start, but with Torment fully in control, he was limited in what he could actually do to enact it... but it's possible that it was Sane Kralkatorrik that actually put Glaust on her initial steps towards becoming Glint.

Could be interesting is the discrepancies in Jormag's behaviour turn out to be because Jormag itself is hearing a voice that is not its own.

Not sure what sources you're asking for since you seem to know them / I already list them.

The torment is confirmed from Guild Chat to be from before the current dragonrise, but that doesn't mean Kralkatorrik was afflicted by torment when he had the vision and confided in Glint:

Glint: He foresaw the possibility of a world at peace. A world without strife between dragons and mortals. A world without him.Glint: It terrified him. He demanded I help prevent it from coming to pass.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

It's unclear if Glint knew about the magical torment, but this description does not match the Kralkatorrik afflicted by torment that we know where his only attention was to consume and corrupt all it could, and destroy the rest. Which implies it's something that happened eons ago, before Glint was corrupted and subsequently purified by the Forgotten, one of the "fragments" that Glints remembers from before that time.

The goal of Kralkatorrik's Torment is "consume and destroy everything", as shown in both S4E6 and EoD novel, but the goal of pre-Torment Kralkatorrik, as presented by Glint in S4E5, was preventing his vision of peace between dragons and mortals without him from coming to pass.

Furthermore, the impression I had was that Kralkatorrik's sane side genuinely approved of what Aurene was going to do, rather than it being purely a matter of being family.Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

But my impression was that Kralkatorrik never actually gave affirmation or denial of Aurene's goals and actions. His sane side was just tired of living in pain, and loved his family too much to harm them and regretting his Torment forcing him to kill Glint.

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:The other threads are a little outdated and I know necro-ing is taboo so I just wanted to create a thread to talk about this.

I'm always a little behind the curve playing content, I only just came off of LWS4 a little while ago. I've been doing plenty of reading about The Icebrood Saga but now I'm a good ways into it and it's some of my favourite content, hands down. The Bound by Blood zone was incredible, the Metal Legion... quelle excellence! I loved it. What a bloody madhouse it was. I've always wanted to drive the charriots too and I finally got my chance. This lead into some very, very cleverly written intrigue! Which is lovely as my partner and I live for intrigue. We quickly figured out that (caveat emptor, of course) Braham's guild probably weren't as evil as the vagueness were suggesting, that they might've been the ones to resist the Sons of Svanir rather than slaughtering all of the Vigil soldiers. Intrigue is fun!

Then it turns out that Jormag is non-binary which just made my day. I had no idea that ArenaNet was progressive enough to do something like that so openly. I approve. How could I not? It's great. We need to start thinking of the Elder Dragons more as people, after all, especially with what we learned about Kralkatorrik. It turned out that Kralky wasn't evil after all, rather he was just being tormented by someone or something in order to continue the cycle of destruction and creation. I can't help but wonder what's responsible for the torment, and it gives rise to questions like what if the humans aren't from another world, but rather were the most pious chosen by the Gods to bring forward into the new cycle?

I mean, what if the Six were somehow responsible for the cycle in some way? What if they rely on worship so much that they want the world to come crashing down whenever their chosen start losing faith? Then, when the new world is created, they send in their clean-up crew—The Forgotten—to sort things out to prepare the world for their humans, and the humans being so thankful will be incredibly pious once again and reliant on their Gods as their technological and societal progression will have been reset. Of course, it looks like this time The Forgotten betrayed the Six by working against the cycle of destruction and creation. Madcap theories abounds. I love this.

Anyway, I'm just glad that Jormag is non-binary. They're such an interesting dragon and I have some pretty big questsions as to whether they're suffering from the torment or not, or perhaps whether they are but they're doing an incredible job of resisting it due to what their power is. I mean, their power is persuasion after all. Plus, dragons with a more feminine edge seem to have a stronger capacity to resist the torment for whatever reason. Glint, Aurene, et al. Though that could be coincidental, of course. I'm hoping at the end of the day that the behaviour of Jormag comes down to three factors: 1.) they are being tormented but they're resisting it, 2.) they're out of touch and doesn't really know how to deal with mortals, but they want to heal them and end their suffering and their main and most effective means for that is mind control, and 3.) they might not be fully in control of their power and they might be unable to stop being so persuasive. Perhaps the torment makes it more difficult for Jormag to focus and control their powers.

I can only hope that Jormag turns out to not be as evil as they appear. What would be especially brilliant is if they lead into Cantha by having Jormag be a bit of a crazy parent; they love their thralls, they want to protect their thralls at all costs, so they're against anyone who would harm their thralls. At one point, my understanding is that they wanted to stop the cycle of destruction and creation by freezing the world and its oceans. Their goals have shifted since then due to the rise of Aurene, of course, as Aurene introduces some interesting new possibilities. One of hte things that could be up with Jormag that the torment is playing on is fear of the Deep Sea Dragon. In the Icebrood trailer, the first time Jormag gets growly and upset is specifically when focusing on an underwater scene and talking about suffering. Jormag is terrified of the suffering that the Deep Sea Dragon could bring to their babies.

Thus, Jormag might be looking to ally with Aurene against the Deep Sea Dragon as they expect an imminent invasion of Canthan forces that could wipe out the thralls they're so set on protecting from death and suffering. Death and suffering seem to be buttons for Jormag, in that Jormag is all about preservation and the end of pain. If others are in pain it seems to drive Jormag a bit potty, perhaps it's an empathy thing that relates to their ability to connect with minds. So the potential for death and suffering that a Canthan invasion lead by the Deep Sea Dragon could cause is absolutely terrifying to them.

Anyway, I love where this is going. I appreciate what ArenaNet is doing here, it's the most fun content I've played thus far.

Abbadon created the bloodstones to bring stability and accesibility to magic, but also to prevent the cycle and keep the dragons sleeping. In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them. There is a high possibility that between the bloodstones, the mind tinkering and the battles of the six that they did effect the cycle in a big way. I like to believe Abbadon tried to mess with kralks mind and bend him, and thus ended up creating his torment and making him into the monster we see today.

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoodenPotatoes/comments/31m598/abaddon_and_the_elder_dragons_theory/

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_the_Five_True_Gods

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them.

I never got round to this fractal. Can you elaborate any further on what is in the fractal to tie in with this?

Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

Thanks, I shall have a peruse

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

This assumption, I think, is where your logic chain falls down. There's the simplest motivation of all for Kralkatorrik to be "not good" before Torment: he, along with the other Elder Dragons, wanted power, and were willing to wreak massive destruction to get it. It's been a theme right back to the original Prophecies Manuscripts that the prospect of gaining magical power can lead to destructive conflict as people seek to seize it - the Guild Wars are blamed on the emergence of the bloodstones from the volcano they were dropped into, for instance - and the Elder Dragons are essentially the ultimate manifestation of this greed.

There's no need to pin his "not good" status on rejecting the vision when greed for power and the willingness to destroy anything to get more is a theme common to all of the Elder Dragons. Particularly since Kralkatorrik has already shown that Glint was at least partially mistaken regarding Kralkatorrik's motives.

Ultimately, though, we have nothing to say that Kralkatorrik's goal was to prevent peace between dragons and mortals. It's possible, but there's a much simpler explanation for his "not good" status which, IMO, is more consistent with Sane Kralkatorrik's behaviour in the instance. He thirsted for power, collected enough to drive him insane, and by the time he realised what he'd done to himself it was too late.

Glaust was created in response to that vision, but if she was wrong about Kralk being terrified, maybe she's also wrong about what his intention in creating her was. Maybe his intent was to make the prophecy happen in a rare moment of lucidity before Torment took control once again.

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@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Abbadon created the bloodstones to bring stability and accesibility to magic, but also to prevent the cycle and keep the dragons sleeping. In sirens reef we learn that he may also of had a hand at trying to "bend" the dragons to his will to try and subjugate them. There is a high possibility that between the bloodstones, the mind tinkering and the battles of the six that they did effect the cycle in a big way. I like to believe Abbadon tried to mess with kralks mind and bend him, and thus ended up creating his torment and making him into the monster we see today.

Abaddon didn't create the Bloodstone - the Seers did. Abaddon spread magic from the Bloodstone, before the other gods recended some of that magic then split the Bloodstone into five pieces.

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Its not sirens reef, sirens landing my bad (had to look on the map when you said fractal?) That zone thats kinda all about abbadon.. There is also a small book in the priory on one of the upper level shelves that talks about it a bit. Its all speculation on NPC's handling information and Im not sure how relevant it is, let me see if I can get a hold of some information for you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoodenPotatoes/comments/31m598/abaddon_and_the_elder_dragons_theory/

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_the_Five_True_Gods

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Note there is no definitive proof but these are places where you can see people piecing it together, and the two beneath are the Wiki's description of pieces that kind of point to the gods having tried to manipulate the dragons to some effect. Id definantly give it a read and im not saying its right or wrong, but it something to be mindful of and could tie into grander plots down the line. I don't think the six or gone for good, I think they will have a huge role to play whether it is on the front-lines as characters or merely being the catalysts and omen's of a darker future.

There's actually nothing that connects Abaddon to the Elder Dragons, besides Abaddon's death and momentary release of magic being what stirred them from hibernation. The "Five Gods" had knowledge of the Elder Dragons, and even tampered with Zhaitan's magic (and Zhaitan alone), but it's never clarified if Abaddon was ever included in any of this, and as far as all indication goes, the gods' knowledge was limited to the Forgotten's knowledge.

The biggest direct connection we have for Abaddon and the Elder Dragons is the Cauldron of Cataclysm / Searing seemingly pulling from Kralkatorrik's magic. However, it's also stated that the shaman caste enchanted the Searing Cauldrons so if the theory of the Searing pulling from Kralk is true, then the shaman caste could have pulled from Kralkatorrik without Abaddon's instruction.

It's actually rather funny that everyone tries to connect Abaddon specifically to somehow trying to manipulate the Elder Dragons, but he's actually the least connected by all direct lore.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Maybe by this point in time, eons after he originally had that vision. But back then? Hard to say. Thing is, the vision is the sole motivation we're ever given for Kralkatorrik being evil besides Torment, and we were told he was "not good" before Torment.

This assumption, I think, is where your logic chain falls down. There's the simplest motivation of all for Kralkatorrik to be "not good" before Torment: he, along with the other Elder Dragons, wanted power, and were willing to wreak massive destruction to get it. It's been a theme right back to the original Prophecies Manuscripts that the prospect of gaining magical power can lead to destructive conflict as people seek to seize it - the Guild Wars are blamed on the emergence of the bloodstones from the volcano they were dropped into, for instance - and the Elder Dragons are essentially the ultimate manifestation of this greed.

There's no need to pin his "not good" status on rejecting the vision when greed for power and the willingness to destroy anything to get more is a theme common to all of the Elder Dragons. Particularly since Kralkatorrik has already shown that Glint was at least partially mistaken regarding Kralkatorrik's motives.

Ultimately, though, we have nothing to say that Kralkatorrik's goal was to prevent peace between dragons and mortals. It's
possible,
but there's a much simpler explanation for his "not good" status which, IMO, is more consistent with Sane Kralkatorrik's behaviour in the instance. He thirsted for power, collected enough to drive him insane, and by the time he realised what he'd done to himself it was too late.

The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this. The closest to such is the fact that Kralkatorrik's Torment was formed by mixing types of magic, but "mixing magic" does not necessarily mean "trying to get more power". Besides that, "wanting power" is not in of itself a motivation. Everyone who wants power, wants power for a reason. Gaining power is either a means to an end, or an end motivated by another factor.

On top of that, it isn't so much "trying to pin his 'not good' status on rejecting the vision" but rather that we know he rejected the vision in the first place. Him being 'not good' and him rejecting the vision are two separate things that occur simultaneously, rather than saying 'he wasn't good because he rejected the vision' or vice versa. And yes, we do not have anything to say Kralkatorrik's primary goal was to prevent his vision - however, at the same time, it is the only stated action he was doing, with zero indication of any alternative goal.

Glaust was created in response to that vision, but if she was wrong about Kralk being terrified, maybe she's also wrong about what his intention in creating her was. Maybe his intent was to make the prophecy happen in a rare moment of lucidity before Torment took control once again.

Nothing says that Glaust was created in response to that vision. Glint stated that Kralkatorrik "demanded help" in making the vision not come to pass. This, to me, implies that Glint was already in existence and was an individual with free will at the time, and her refusal resulted in corruption (or, if the demand came after Glint's betrayal - which is entirely plausible if unlikely - resulted in her death). Furthermore, if Glaust was created while Kralkatorrik was afflicted by Torment, then she would have been created corrupted (which would go against Warden Ilyra's wording in Arah that free will was "returned" to her) in which Glint would not have had a will of her own to see "a gift to the world" because her will would have automatically be his will - he would not need to demand anything from Glint/Glaust.

Glint: He foresaw the possibility of a world at peace. A world without strife between dragons and mortals. A world without him.Glint: It terrified him. He demanded I help prevent it from coming to pass.Glint: But where he saw doom, I saw a gift to the world.Glint: I believe in this future—this fragile, powerful hope. But what my daughter must do will seem impossible to her.

The wording here is very telling, because it tells us that Glint was not corrupted when Kralkatorrik "demanded help".

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

Except there's plenty of indication.

The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of all the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is what Elder Dragons do. I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

Except there's
plenty
of indication.

This seems like a difference of opinion. Mind you, you may both be saying the same thing in different ways.

The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of all the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is what Elder Dragons do. I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. The outer portion of Kralk's self wasn't part of him with which you would reason; but his inner self, Kralk's Eye, as it were, was almost serene. Then Snaff went and blew his chances of helping Kralk by thinking about how he gained for himself, saving his pride by passing up the chance of receiving an ignomious award from his peers.

My thoughts on this align closer to Konig's. I'm not dismissing the idea that the lust for power is at the heart of the Elder Dragon Cycle problem. I just think that the nature of torment and the lust for power are two sides of the same coin. Paradigms developed by different observers as they behold the same elephant.

I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

It almost seems as though we think that Kralkatorrik's torment doesn't reflect him at all; as though the side of him that we favor by "defeating" his torment, is the final authority on what happens next. But let's not forget that Zaithan and Mordremoth were symbolically present in the fight and they seem to have sided with Kralk's darkest self.

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

Mordremoth knew about Glint's egg and, as we know, made a play for it. How can we think that it did this to advance Aurene's supposed "ascension", when upon it's death it cries, "What have you done?". If killing Mordy was the key to hatching Aurene, wouldn't Mordy willingly sacrifice itself, especially when it has demonstrated sufficient presence of mind to try and effectively abduct Glint's egg?

And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

I think that the passing of Zai, Mordy, and Kralk, has revealed something about magic and the Cycle, of which Jormag was either previously unaware or deliberately ignored. I would hardly say, though, that Kralk wanted to die to end the cycle. That choice was taken away by whatever magic was at work in him.

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@"Stephen.6312" said:I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. I believe he had been suffering for Millennia indicating perhaps before or since the last Dragonrise.

I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

Since the devs have stated they have no written backstory for the Dragons either, but hope to touch further on the above subjects, we will just have to wait and see.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

Except there's
plenty
of indication.

The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of
all
the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is
what Elder Dragons do.
I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

The primary goal now, when afflicted by torment, is to consume all magic as greedily as possible. But as we learn with the Bloodstone-Crazed and those influenced by ley-line magic, those who get overexposed to magic begin craving magic.

To me, this is a very strong indication that "just because it is their main actions now, doesn't mean it always was."

As such, to me, this is in turn not an indication that pre-Torment Kralkatorrik (or any ED pre-Torment) was primarily after consuming all types of magic. If anything, consuming all types of magic while sane seems more like a means to an end rather than the end itself. Much like with Caudecus, for example - his goal wasn't to consume bloodstone shards and go batshit insane with a greed for more bloodstone magic; he was just consuming bloodstone shards in order to gain enough power to obtain his goal of winning the war after he got backed into a corner.

I find it far more likely for all Elder Dragons to have gone after consuming too much magic either little by little, or as a means to an end for their goal - depending on whether they were "good" or "evil" before being afflicted with magical Torment. Does that mean it would be so for every Elder Dragon? Nah. Just some.

@"Stephen.6312" said:I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. The outer portion of Kralk's self wasn't part of him with which you would reason; but his inner self, Kralk's Eye, as it were, was almost serene. Then Snaff went and blew his chances of helping Kralk by thinking about how he gained for himself, saving his pride by passing up the chance of receiving an ignomious award from his peers.

The magical conflict was confirmed by devs to be eons old - before this dragonrise, let alone before Zhaitan's death. Implied to be well before the previous dragonrise, even. This was addressed in the Guild Chat following War Eternal's release by Tom Abernathy.

[EDIT: Raw captions of said Guild Chat here]

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

It isn't that Mordremoth's magic is tormented or pure, but rather that the magic clash in Kralkatorrik, but don't in her. The reason is indeed unclear (closest we get to an explanation is Glint saying Aurene's bond with mortals lets her ease the burden of magic), but it isn't a case of pure-impure, but rather more like... tangled yarn versus untangled yarn, is how I see it.

It should be noted that it was suggested by Tom Abernathy that while Aurene was immune to torment at the time, this may not be forever the case, implying that by becoming an Elder Dragon and absorbing more magic, torment may begin to steep in. This was - again - in the Guild Chat following War Eternal's release.

Mordremoth knew about Glint's egg and, as we know, made a play for it. How can we think that it did this to advance Aurene's supposed "ascension", when upon it's death it cries, "What have you done?". If killing Mordy was the key to hatching Aurene, wouldn't Mordy willingly sacrifice itself, especially when it has demonstrated sufficient presence of mind to try and effectively abduct Glint's egg?

There really isn't an indication that Mordremoth was interested in Aurene ascending though. Not sure where this is coming from?

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@"Randulf.7614" said:I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

Thank you for clarifying that. I think this forms the substance of both Konig's and Draxx's opinions: Kralkatorrik had a pre-existing condition. You could call that condition torment, or you could call it evil (i.e. the decision to do something that mortal races consider morally reprehensible). But, to my mind, Draxx hits the nail on the head: the lust for power is the root of torment. This conclusion makes Glint's advice to Aurene a little easier to understand: "You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price."

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

Glint's advice to Aurene reveals what both Professor Gorr and the Zephyrites have long known: Dragons eat magic. The process comes naturally to them. Hand-in-hand with their ability to metabolize magic, though, comes power and temptations. Glint's training indicates that she doesn't believe that Aurene is above the temptations associated with feeding on magic. Nor does her call to Aurene's "Champion" to help Aurene share the burden of her nature make for sufficiently convincing explanations about how Aurene is different. Bonding with mortals isn't a distinction between Aurene and other Elder Dragons. The latter create minions, who, presumably, share their masters' burdens. Hence, saying that Aurene is capable of indefinitely resisting the temptations of consuming magic is just too far-fetched to be believeable.

Let's not forget that Aurene states that Jormag has ravaged Tyria "countless times". The cycle, as it is, is incredibly stable. What do you think the norm should be? The outcome that has repeated itself so often even Aurene can't put a sum to it, or this sudden shift, in which Aurene seems to be some kind of game-changing dragon? If you really want to know what's going to destroy Tyria, just think about Aurene and how she doesn't fit. Maybe the old way of doing things was better for Tyria than the new way?

Now, someone may say: The difference between Aurene and the other Elder Dragons is that Aurene forms bonds of love with her minions, whereas the other Elders just force their minions into servitude. That seems like a fair observation. But let's get real here. There would've been a time when at least one of the other dragons formed bonds in like manner to Aurene. In fact, Jormag's persuasiveness reminds me a lot of Aurene's approach to managing the burden of being a dragon. But, as some of the promo material delivered to us as part of the Icebrood Saga demonstrates, "[mortals] will betray you". The Elders know that mortals can't be trusted. Aurene will turn, eventually.

Where is all of this going? Well, as Canach once remarked, maybe the Elder Dragons are suffering from a condition that is biological in nature and requires them to evolve? They're dragons, and dragons are born to be exceptionally good at being evil. They may begin life as benign reptilians, too small to be anymore troublesome than a household pet, but sooner or later, the unique nature of a dragon will catch up to it and it won't be able to control itself.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

Thank you for clarifying that. I think this forms the substance of both Konig's and Draxx's opinions: Kralkatorrik had a pre-existing condition. You could call that condition torment, or you could call it evil (i.e. the
decision
to do something that mortal races consider morally reprehensible). But, to my mind, Draxx hits the nail on the head: the lust for power is the root of torment. This conclusion makes Glint's advice to Aurene a little easier to understand:
"You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price."

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

Glint's advice to Aurene reveals what both
and the Zephyrites have long known: Dragons eat magic. The process comes
naturally
to them. Hand-in-hand with their ability to metabolize magic, though, comes
power
and
temptations
. Glint's training indicates that she doesn't believe that Aurene is above the temptations associated with feeding on magic. Nor does her call to Aurene's "Champion" to help Aurene
share
the burden of her nature make for sufficiently convincing explanations about how Aurene is
different
. Bonding with mortals isn't a distinction between Aurene and other Elder Dragons. The latter create minions, who, presumably,
share
their masters' burdens. Hence, saying that Aurene is capable of
indefinitely
resisting the temptations of consuming magic is just too far-fetched to be believeable.

Let's not forget that Aurene states that Jormag has ravaged Tyria "countless times". The cycle, as it is, is incredibly stable. What do you think the norm should be? The outcome that has repeated itself so often even Aurene can't put a sum to it, or this sudden
shift
, in which Aurene seems to be some kind of game-changing dragon? If you really want to know what's going to destroy Tyria, just think about Aurene and how she
doesn't fit
. Maybe the old way of doing things was better for Tyria than the new way?

Now, someone may say: The difference between Aurene and the other Elder Dragons is that Aurene forms bonds of love with her minions, whereas the other Elders just force their minions into servitude. That seems like a fair observation. But let's get real here. There would've been a time when at least one of the other dragons formed bonds in like manner to Aurene. In fact, Jormag's
persuasiveness
reminds me a lot of Aurene's approach to
managing
the burden of being a dragon. But, as some of the promo material delivered to us as part of the Icebrood Saga demonstrates,
"[mortals] will betray you"
. The Elders know that mortals can't be trusted. Aurene will turn, eventually.

Where is all of this going? Well, as Canach once
, maybe the Elder Dragons are suffering from a condition that is
biological
in nature and requires them to evolve? They're dragons, and dragons are born to be
exceptionally
good at being evil
. They may begin life as benign reptilians, too small to be anymore troublesome than a household pet, but sooner or later, the unique nature of a dragon will catch up to it and it won't be able to control itself.

Perhaps our studies of the skyscales and gorricks research into the topic may yield results, remember they are now a new invasive species on tyria. Who function like miniature dragons and eat magic; They also given that there was a bit of lore stubbed into their skins as "They begin to develop differently" based on the magic they consume. So this might mean that while they aren't elder dragons perhaps they share some similar traits, and these traits may very well be the key to solving the dragons suffering and basically curing them. Paired with the "Freeing ritual" we found in orr durring vanilla, maybe we can merge these two practices together and come to a solution to end their torment while also freeing their minds so that they can become benevolent again/for the first time.

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Gods and Elders of a sphere of magic are narrative devices used to portray compulsive and pathological personalities where compulsively applying or thinking about the sphere of magic is the pathology. Tyrian magiphysics may make this narrative device explicit. The human gods and Elder dragons may not be able to think for themselves or have complete free will. The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self. Hosting multiple spheres could require space to buffer them or spheres could repel each other taking up more space and creating dissonance. I guess I see "Torment" as describing the voice or "mind sound" of a sphere of magic within an Elder dragon. If magic reaches too high a level or too many magics are brought together in a mind, then Torment increases. The human gods may suffer Torment as well but have ways to manage it. Perhaps being part of a pantheon is key. They work together, talk to each other, bolster each others minds.

Jormag may only be able to apply a small portion of its mind to free will. They may be trapped in a way of thinking dominated by their spheres of magic and multi-sphere dissonance. They may even be trying to run a game on themselves, trying to trick themselves into ending the cycle. Is the small sliver of Jormag's true self trying to trick the rest of its mind into dying?

Aurene's unique physiology can be explained as long as we accept that her mind could effect her physical transformation during her ascension to Elder dragon. In Tyria, there is an obvious symmetry between mind and matter and a mind less willing to cause harm could encourage a less dangerous physiology to emerge. Aurene's physiology may give her an advantage but I don't see how it can completely protect her. Well, the studio could just say that it does but an Aurene able to defy what would be a significant aspect of the Eternal Alchemy would be hard to believe. Hopefully we see an Aurene terrified of her future self and the danger she could pose. Hopefully we are on a journey to upgrade the All bios or migrate to a new All form factor. Hopefully we aren't going to be asked to unplug it and then plug it back in.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Less "everything is predestined" and more psychohistory.

The Commander is the Mule?

Accepting this idea of soft-predetermination where the details of an event can be changed but the event will still happen, then I think its probably closer to the old concept that time is a wide river and while you can toss all the stones in it you want it's still going to the ocean. This would still mean that there is a shape to Tyria's future that the Kralk Family would have seen. Perhaps Kranlk was too filled with torment to realize that he could change things. Or perhaps he felt that the river must flow as intended because it will regardless.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...

Then we went and fought a big floating eye that used to hit a lot harder than it does now. It was clearly an attempt at being clever by the writers. But if we take the statement at face value: She has also contradictorily told Caithe not to question the dream, and that everyone has a role to play in events. These are not statements about free will.

BUUUT.... The Pale Tree isn't a good reference for GW's cosmology. These statements could simply have could also been subconscious references to their existence as dragon minions. The Dream itself was really nothing more than Mordremoth's version of the NSA once you take into account that Sylvari were born, sent out to find information about the world, and then bringing that all back. (In a way Scarlet and the Nightmare Court were doing the right thing by rebelling, they were just rebelling in the most garbage way possible.)

We never really got much of a follow up on the fallout of HoT in regards to Sylvari discovering their true nature, but the effect is that everything they believe about themselves, as well as the proclamations of the Pale Tree, is suspect.

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Just a thought: there is no immediate reason to associate the DSD with Cantha. As was pointed out, we know where the DSD is, or at least where it WAS: in the Endless Ocean west or northwest (ish) of Kryta. That's a long way to go even by an ED's standards.

HOWEVER, Primordus was last known (as of the end of LS3E5) to be asleep under Draconis Mons -- which is much closer to Cantha than the DSD. Primordus is also known for covering significant distances via the underground. So it may well be Primordus, not the DSD, whom we face in Cantha.

Not that we really NEED to fight an Elder Dragon in Cantha. Cantha has no shortage of home grown horrors to face...demon magic, leviathans, and Six only know what the nation of Cantha itself has become since Usoku went all crazy racist isolationist on everyone. There's real potential for Cantha to be a place where we face more human evils than fantastic ones, and that would be one heck of a storytelling combo breaker for the game if Anet chose to go that route.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:Gods and Elders of a sphere of magic are narrative devices used to portray compulsive and pathological personalities where compulsively applying or thinking about the sphere of magic is the pathology. Tyrian magiphysics may make this narrative device explicit. The human gods and Elder dragons may not be able to think for themselves or have complete free will.

That's a really intriguing notion. The idea that, for dragon-kind and perhaps also the gods, there is no such thing as free will. It's a subject that I've long-contemplated. Could the desire for free will be at the core of Glint's motivations? Is torment forced on dragon-kind and they simply want to choose whether they accept the mantle of responsibility or not? The mind boggles.

The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

Hosting multiple spheres could require space to buffer them or spheres could repel each other taking up more space and creating dissonance. I guess I see "Torment" as describing the voice or "mind sound" of a sphere of magic within an Elder dragon. If magic reaches too high a level or too many magics are brought together in a mind, then Torment increases. The human gods may suffer Torment as well but have ways to manage it. Perhaps being part of a pantheon is key. They work together, talk to each other, bolster each others minds.

My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to force himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

Could the Elder Dragons do a better job than the human gods? Well, they're far more ruthless, and loving or not, if they want you to help them deal with torment, it's mighty hard to refuse them their request.

Jormag may only be able to apply a small portion of its mind to free will. They may be trapped in a way of thinking dominated by their spheres of magic and multi-sphere dissonance. They may even be trying to run a game on themselves, trying to trick themselves into ending the cycle. Is the small sliver of Jormag's true self trying to trick the rest of its mind into dying?

That's deep. I like that. At this point, though, none of the dragons have willingly indicated a desire to change the way the cycle progresses. Mortals have had to bloody their noses before this possibility occurs to them.

Aurene's unique physiology can be explained as long as we accept that her mind could effect her physical transformation during her ascension to Elder dragon. In Tyria, there is an obvious symmetry between mind and matter and a mind less willing to cause harm could encourage a less dangerous physiology to emerge. Aurene's physiology may give her an advantage but I don't see how it can completely protect her. Well, the studio could just say that it does but an Aurene able to defy what would be a significant aspect of the Eternal Alchemy would be hard to believe. Hopefully we see an Aurene terrified of her future self and the danger she could pose. Hopefully we are on a journey to upgrade the All bios or migrate to a new All form factor. Hopefully we aren't going to be asked to unplug it and then plug it back in.

You could be onto something there. Here's how I see it: Love has a part to play in this, but only in the short term. As you suggest, dragon-kind may need mortal help to progress to it's next evolutionary step and finally overcome the problem of torment. This may be the All itself, essentially exhausting the process of natural evolution and having to fall back on a fail-safe, a last resort, in which the minds of those who still retain them aid it in searching for a solution past this latest existential conundrum. Juxtaposed to that, there is the fact that everything has been ticking over just fine in Tyria with every other cycle. Is Tyria enriched or impoverished by the ruthless intent of hungry dragons?

A part of me has suspicions about Glint. Maybe she's got designs on elevating herself into a form of godhood the likes of which no Tyrian has ever seen? Not a human god, not a norn Spirit of the Wild; not a White Stag, nor the power of science and industry; but a Single, Almighty, Universally-accepted entity to which all Tyrians turn and whom all Tyrians worship. Complete obedience, no free will. The thought is terrifying.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:

The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to
force
himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

Could the Elder Dragons do a better job than the human gods? Well, they're far more ruthless, and loving or not, if they want you to help them deal with torment, it's mighty hard to refuse them their request.

There would be no limit on how elaborate the gods' mating rituals could get. I am not being serious. I hope the gods get to hook up and it would be spectacular but I don't think god sex magic is responsible.

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@Psientist.6437 said:

The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are possessed by torment?

What is torment, though? One way to think of it is as conflicting magic. That might be how an asura would describe it. Charr and sylvari might well agree with that. Humans and norn? I can see them going a little further, stating that torment is the presence of malevolent spirits (i.e. demons) within the mind of a being, whomever that should be. Dragons, though, are probably more empathetic than even mankind and so find themselves, more often than not, playing host to demons who offer them the very thing they're biologically predisposed to enjoy: dark, twisted magic.

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