More (human) gods? [Spoilers LW S3+PoF]

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:"They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

"Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

I mean, the line from Kormir is a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of the Six." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called The Five as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being: " They abated me, dimmed my light..." - abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

And finally, to quote ANet devs (which you would find if you just looked at the wiki ):

[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]

And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"[...]Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Teratus.2859" said:The only classification that really makes sense is Fallen God.

Dhuum, Balthazar and Abaddon are all Fallen Gods who were once members of the Six.

What we know from them.They do not blind mortals when looking on them.They are not as powerful as The Six however they still hold and can absorb a significant amount of power to still place them among the most powerful beings in existence.After being deposed, they retain their God bodies seemingly made up of pure energy/magic and they explode upon death, unleashing a devastating amount of magic.Upon death their power can be absorbed under the right circumstances to create a new God. (Kormir)Upon Falling they can still retain titles and dominion.. (Abaddon still being the God of Water and Secrets despite being deposed by The Six)Not quite.

Unlike Balthazar and Dhuum, Abaddon was never stripped of power. His power was sealed behind the eight gates we visit in the Realm of Torment, but never taken from him - whereas with Dhuum it was taken by Grenth, and with Balthazar it was taken with details unknown. Abaddon, for all intents and purposes, was still a full-fledged god.

The lack of blinding was because, simply put, it wasn't part of the lore at the time. That was something added for GW2.

As such, Abaddon was still as powerful as The Six - but by the end of the Nightfall campaign, only three gates were unlocked (by Varesh's rituals), thus he was at capable of less than half-strength compared to his normal self, allowing the Hero of Nightfall to kill him (combined with the chains by Balthazar which exposed him to a vulnerable state).

Similarly, neither Dhuum nor Balthazar technically have titles or domains.

TL;DR

Abaddon was one case. Dhuum and Balthazar are another. And even then, Dhuum and Balthazar aren't exactly the same given Dhuum's... odd body, and apparent immortality.

And this alters a bit of what you postulate later on in your post.

What that says about Balthazar specificially [...]While deposed he likely retained his Titles of God of War, Fire and Challenge unless he was replaced by a new and currently unknown/named God of War, Fire and Challenge.This is definitely false, as Kormir outright states he had been stripped of his titles.

She certainly radiates light similarly to a God though that's for sure although it does not blind like a God so she's defintiely not Divine like the Six/Five are.But her connection to the Mists may hint at her connection with Balthazars magic, Gods are deeply connected to the Mists, they have entire realms there and as far as we know they originate from it as well.Elder Dragons don't appear to be connected to the mists at all and Kralkatorrik only ventured there after absorbing a fallen God and the magic he had accumilated.Suffice to say I'd expect Aurine to possess most if not all of whatever power Balthazar left over upon his death, and while she isn't a God like the Six are, she may be something different but similar in many ways.. Perhaps that's also what Kralkatorrik was hinting at when he called her The First of her Kind.

Aurene mentions in VotP that her connection to the Mists is part of her Elder Dragonhood, not the magic she got from Balthazar though. While the gods did have realms in the Mists, those were not made nor originally owned by them but were instead... "rented" to the gods, per se.

[Stephen.6312]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:"They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

"Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

I mean, the line from Kormir

is

a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of

the Six

." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called

The Five

as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being:

" They abated me, dimmed my light..."

- abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

And finally,

to quote

ANet devs (which you would find

if you just looked at the wiki

):

[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when

the other gods stripped him of his power

and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]

And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"[...]Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity

Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate because they do not know any better.

[Stephen.6312]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate.

Quite true. However, it is a reminder that we must use our judgment to try to understand Balthazar's status in Path of Fire.

The material demonstrates that, at some point, we need to make a decision about what evidence we consider compelling and what evidence we don't find compelling. Your bias causes you to reject the statements forwarded in the promo material. My bias causes me to accept it at face value.

But let's be clear, here: I hate the promo releases, the post-production interviews etc etc. I tend to treat them with disdain. However, this time I'm going against the grain, accepting that an aspect of the promo material accurately describes Balthazar's status as a rogue god.

[Randulf.7614]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate because they do not know any better.

This 100%. His God description is because that is how everyone has always thought of him.

[Stephen.6312]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate because they do not know any better.

This 100%. His God description is because that is how everyone has always thought of him. He can be called a rogue God and not actually be an active God in terms of power and divinity. It's no different from calling him a Fallen God which uses the same terminology. but keeps him classified as no longer an actual God

I'm not sure what you mean by an "active God" as opposed to an "actual God"? To my mind, he was an active, actual, independent god.

He reflected that aspect of humanity that wants to fight back against dragon kind. Even so, his behavior demonstrates what happens when the gods don't act in unity. They are all, ultimately, weaker for it.

[Randulf.7614]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate because they do not know any better.

This 100%. His God description is because that is how everyone has always thought of him. He can be called a rogue God and not actually be an active God in terms of power and divinity. It's no different from calling him a Fallen God which uses the same terminology. but keeps him classified as no longer an actual God

I'm not sure what you mean by an "active God" as opposed to an "actual God"? To my mind, he was an active, actual,

independent

god.

He reflected that aspect of humanity that wants to fight back against dragon kind. Even so, his behavior demonstrates what happens when the gods don't act in unity. They are all, ultimately, weaker for it.

For now I've removed that entire secntence until I can rewrite what I meant more clearly when its not 3am and also watching Wrestlemania..

[draxynnic.3719]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:"They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

"Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

I mean, the line from Kormir

is

a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of

the Six

." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called

The Five

as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being:

" They abated me, dimmed my light..."

- abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

And finally,

to quote

ANet devs (which you would find

if you just looked at the wiki

):

[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when

the other gods stripped him of his power

and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]

And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"[...]Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity

Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

What is a god? Dhuum is also referred to as a god, albeit a fallen one, but he is clearly not one of the Six, nor does he have the power of one of the Six (any more).

Balthazar in PoF is on the same scale. He's a fallen god, therefor promotional material calling him a "god" is not inconsistent (particularly if it is coming from the unreliable viewpoint of what Tyrians thought before PoF started... consider that the Elder Dragons were also described as more akin to natural disasters than antagonists, and that has certainly been shown to be untrue) but we have multiple sources indicating he's been stripped of the power he enjoyed when he was one of the Six.

'Fallen god' can be viewed as a subcategory of 'god', just as 'dwarf star' is a subcategory of 'star', but there is clearly a power level differential between what Balthazar was as one of the Six and what he is in PoF. And we're told point-blank that he's no longer one of the Six, and that that body no longer considers him to be the holder of the portfolio he claims (as distinct from Abaddon, who was still the God of Knowledge during his confinement).

[Stephen.6312]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:"They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

"Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

I mean, the line from Kormir

is

a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of

the Six

." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called

The Five

as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being:

" They abated me, dimmed my light..."

- abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

And finally,

to quote

ANet devs (which you would find

if you just looked at the wiki

):

[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when

the other gods stripped him of his power

and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]

And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"[...]Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity

Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

What is a god? Dhuum is also referred to as a god, albeit a fallen one, but he is clearly not one of the Six, nor does he have the power of one of the Six (any more).

Balthazar in PoF is on the same scale. He's a fallen god, therefor promotional material calling him a "god" is not inconsistent (particularly if it is coming from the unreliable viewpoint of what Tyrians thought before PoF started... consider that the Elder Dragons were also described as more akin to natural disasters than antagonists, and

that

has certainly been shown to be untrue) but we have

multiple

sources indicating he's been stripped of the power he enjoyed when he was one of the Six.

'Fallen god' can be viewed as a subcategory of 'god', just as 'dwarf star' is a subcategory of 'star', but there is clearly a power level differential between what Balthazar was as one of the Six and what he is in PoF. And we're told point-blank that he's no longer one of the Six, and that that body no longer considers him to be the holder of the portfolio he claims (as distinct from Abaddon, who was still the God of Knowledge during his confinement).

Well, Drax, I think your opinion reveals something that we can both agree on: to someone, somewhere on Tyria, he was a god. Zafira certainly thought he was.

Was he one of the Six? Perhaps the issue here is whether Kormir is the goddess of subjective or objective truth? I'd like to think that she's the goddess of both forms of truth, whether subjective or objective; but that doesn't mean that, when she states that Balthazar is "no longer one of the Six", she is speaking objectively. And therein lies the distinction: Rytlock is making an objective statement, unbiased in that he is a charr with no ulterior motives and no reason to fuss over politics. Kormir, on the other hand, is a politician, presenting the entire party with a perspective deliberately designed to skew the absolute truth of the matter. (Kormir's position as goddess of truth is, to other races, a matter of opinion. And even some (former) humans, such as Shiro Tagachi or Mallyx the Unyielding, would probably want a word with Kormir about her definition of truth.)

Let's not forget that this whole encounter between humanity and one of their (possibly former) gods was a complete disaster for the remaining members of the "pantheon". Does anyone honestly think that Dwayna wanted Balthazar to go rogue? The gods have been trying to pass themselves off as having long departed Tyria. Why would they want to give the impression that they had lied to their worshipers by allowing one of their own, whether formerly or presently a god, to reveal himself to mankind? And what about Kormir? Kasmeer's audience with her can't have been something that Kormir welcomed. I imagine that it put her on the back foot for a bit. If Kormir had her way, she'd only see humans; other races should just stay out of it.

Here's something to ponder: If Rytlock hadn't tried to solve the Foefire problem; if Balthazar hadn't been released from his (in my opinion, temporary) prison, do you think that once all of this dragon nonsense had blown over, humanity would've been any the wiser about Balthazar's "dismissal"? If the Six, or the Five, or whatever you want to call Dwayna's pantheon, quietly reinstated Balthazar, how would mankind have known any different?

They wouldn't have. Balthazar wasn't replaced. They always intended to reinstate him. And, in my opinion, he was divine.

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't think there's any good reason to think that Rytlock was any more knowledgeable than any random Tyrian at the time.

And that's his purpose at that point in the instance: to be the guy who's blunt enough to say what everyone is thinking, so that Kormir can correct him. He's hardly "objective" - as a charr, he's predisposed to having a negative opinion of the Six, and he shows this multiple times in the story.

We have multiple sources saying Balthazar is weakened - Balthazar himself, out-of-game dev comments, the game mechanics themselves (if it was ArenaNet's intent, they could easily have given Balthazar the blinding effect in our original encounters and then had Kormir give us a blessing to protect against that as a callback to the battle against Abaddon) - Kormir just brings it all together in a nice little bow. As for why they chose to imprison him... it's probably just as simple as the gods realising that killing him is something they can't undo, and they're following the "never do a thing you can't undo until you've considered all the things you can't do after you've done it" principle.

Honestly, your position is starting to feel not just conspiracy-theory-ish, but one that relies on explaining away too much evidence to the contrary to be credible. All the evidence is pointing towards him having been stripped of his rank as well as his power, and you can fly in the face of that evidence if you choose, but don't expect many people to agree with you. Does he still have some spark of divine essence? Probably. Mind you, so does every human, and artifacts of other races such as the Seers and Forgotten also employ divine magic. But he is not one of the Six, nor is he the true God of War in GW2's timescale, even if the playable races in the game were unaware of that shift until PoF.

[Stephen.6312]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I don't think there's any good reason to think that Rytlock was any more knowledgeable than any random Tyrian at the time.

And that's his purpose at that point in the instance: to be the guy who's blunt enough to say what everyone is thinking, so that Kormir can correct him. He's hardly "objective" - as a charr, he's predisposed to having a negative opinion of the Six, and he shows this multiple times in the story.

We have multiple sources saying Balthazar is weakened - Balthazar himself, out-of-game dev comments, the game mechanics themselves (if it was ArenaNet's intent, they could easily have given Balthazar the blinding effect in our original encounters and then had Kormir give us a blessing to protect against that as a callback to the battle against Abaddon) - Kormir just brings it all together in a nice little bow. As for why they chose to imprison him... it's probably just as simple as the gods realising that killing him is something they can't undo, and they're following the "never do a thing you can't undo until you've considered all the things you can't do after you've done it" principle.

Honestly, your position is starting to feel not just conspiracy-theory-ish, but one that relies on explaining away too much evidence to the contrary to be credible. All the evidence is pointing towards him having been stripped of his rank as well as his power, and you can fly in the face of that evidence if you choose, but don't expect many people to agree with you. Does he still have some spark of divine essence? Probably. Mind you, so does every human, and artifacts of other races such as the Seers and Forgotten also employ divine magic. But he is not one of the Six, nor is he the true God of War in GW2's timescale, even if the playable races in the game were unaware of that shift until PoF.

I accept that we agree to disagree. And as you know, I don't expect to convince anyone to adopt an opinion as unpopular as my own. Perhaps the silent majority can steer this thread back on track.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Stephen.6312" said:Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

What is a god? Dhuum is also referred to as a god, albeit a fallen one, but he is clearly not one of the Six, nor does he have the power of one of the Six (any more).

Pretty much this.

Tyrians/GW tends to call them all gods whether they're "standard gods", "fallen gods" or "former gods". And both of the latter tend to be lumped into being called Fallen/Rogue God(s).

Abaddon is called a Fallen God, just as Dhuum is, but their situations are very different for example.

This is where Unreliable Narrators come into play - the standard Tyrian doesn't have much exposure to gods, and we players have gotten more exposure than even the Commander (esp. since the main story and raids are kept separate 99% of the time).

Personally, I label the state Dhuum and Balthazar are in as "demi-god" since that seems most apt, but ANet isn't keen on explicit titling, and drastically overutilize unreliable narrators (especially in this regard).

This is a similar situation to the use of "Elder Dragons are akin to natural disasters" or "risen are undead". From the perspective of Tyrians, calling Balthazar a god is true; and from the perspective of Tyrians, calling the Elder Dragons mindless forces of nature is also true. But from an objective perspective that we players know, both seem to be false, though there is no point-blank-no-questions-askable statement saying "that statement is false". Same with labeling the risen "undead" - they may look like a duck and quack like an undead, but they're fundamentally different from undead created by your everyday Tyrian necromancer or lich as much as destroyers are fundamentally different from any lava elemental out there.

[Psientist.6437]

I am working on a hypothesis for Tyrian cosmology where the creation of human gods and elder dragons is analogous to the way stars are created. Stars form when a gas of diffuse particles reaches a critical mass density. The cloud of gas collapses and the force of that collapse starts nuclear fusion. If there are magic particles then something similar could happen. The energy density of magic particles around a planet increases until critical density is reached, giving birth to an All or magic star. If we make the connection between magic and mind explicit, then we should expect to see 2 things:

The energy density of magic increases as minds on a planet become more productive.There will always be a top species with the most productive minds. When ignition of the magic star occurs, that species would be integrated into the topology governing the convective topography of magic.

Perhaps the human home world experienced the birth of an All and all humans were integrated. After eons of competition, the pantheon of gods was reduced until only Six remained with Six being a minimum magic number for a stable topology. We could even consider the human gods as analogous to the remnant of an exploded All. Something happened to the humans home world that caused the All to go supernova. The All wasn't completely destroyed but the human gods now regulate the equivalent of a white dwarf or neutron star.

Under this model, godhood or elder-hood is achieved by a group. The group would have abilities determined by the type of All star formed. All stars would have a range of types analogous to star types.

[Dustfinger.9510]

It seems to me that issue lies with A-net not giving a designation, so both points of view are completely reliant on personal definitions. Some based on personal preffernce and some based on extra universe standards that have been set elsewhere. And then, a little bit of looking for ways to justify those predisposed definitions. We know Balthazar isn't one of the 6. That isn't in dispute. But, we also know from Grenth that one need not be one of the 6 to be a type of god. He didn't need to have his mothers "power of the 6" to be a type of god, otherwise, the two of them would have needed to be a type of twin god like Lyssa, to complete the mantle of one of the 6. Becasue I was raised on our own real world mythology, my personal classification is that the spark of divinity in all living things is a might different than saying something is divine due to being a figure in a pantheon. Even if that figure is lies in the outskirts like Hercules or Jormungand . Or has been deposed, like the Titans or the trolls.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"Ninutra.7926" said:There have been some questions streaming through my mind when it comes to gods, or divines in the world of Tyria in general. This is for the fun of speculation only!

According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

• Are gods a separate race? One that comes with naturally high magic concentration/powers? Were some of them divine from birth, or existed since forever, while the likes of Kormir and Grenth are ascended humans or... half-breeds, in Grenth's case? Are gods simply powerful humans that can just spawn out of thin air? Or did they all ascend at some point in time, but maybe so long ago that nobody could possibly remember? I personally lean towards the latter.

• If it is possible to ascend, how does one acquire such power? Aside from sucking up another dying god, that is. Could one perhaps take in a large power pool from any source and just become a god? If so, then how many "gods" could there be in the Mists, if not all human(oids) came to Tyria? And potentially, how many can be created in Tyria itself? Can one take up magic over the course of a long life, instead of all at once? Could a long-lived race perhaps develop into something with similar power level to the Six? (let's just entertain the thought that Dragon's won't eat you, nor your magic)

• Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)

• Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)

• If it is... developable, I am tempted to say there should be "deity academies" which teach people how to harness enough power to become gods, but that would probably be considered sacrilege.

It's a bit clunky post, correct me if I've forgotten something (it's late over here when I was writing this). Otherwise, what do you guys think? Would gladly read any theories that you may have.

They are beings born from the mists, Balthazar and grenth are children of the gods who had ascended. (Balthazar killed his father, and Grenth took of dhuums mantle after he was dealt with.) But they are from the mists and an interesting note is that Razah is also a mist being and was being kept prisoner by Abaddon due to him being curious as to what, and how Razah formed. They exist outside of natural cycles, and are more sensitive to magic but they are not human at least not completely as I seem to remember the only one who ascended from humanity to god-dom is Kormir. (Which has never fully been explained..)

Being that they are mist beings they are pretty much just like the demons, however when demons die they can reform within the mists and the Six Cannot because their realm of power must be taken and not left vacant (Like the elder dragons.) or destruction will unfold. Abaddons death was said to have the power to end all of tyria and kormir was blessed by the six to allow her to ascend or at least thats the way the narrative went. And the heroes were blessed to be able to fight Abaddon. With Balthazar this was far different as the Six had de-powered him and given his seat to someone else (Either menzies or Razah). So when we do meet him he is still a mist being but he lacks the font of power that is associate with the the war god, and perhaps the fissure of woe.

This is why he could absorb the bloodstone, he is a being comprised of the mists and as you notice when he dies he basically disintegrates into mist magic which is where I believe Kralk learned how to enter the mists.. as balthazar can do so as well. God magic is different than all other forms of magic due to its unique nature within the mists, and dervish's used to channel this magic into themselves and become "Heralds" of the gods. This practice has been lost because the gods are no longer giving out blessings or even passing on the full knowledge of how to become such anymore.(Which is why they are not playable by the player characters.) Another interesting note is that when a god dies, or well one of the mist beings that are not demons they cease to be. Their essence returns to the mists and it might reform but it will not be them and will not have the memories or ideas of the being it once was. Likewise they leave no ripples in the mists so even though balthazar did some crazy stuff in PoF he can't be channeled or found in the mists anymore... he doesn't exist now. Same with Abaddon. They cease to be and merely return from whence they came, becoming one with the primordial energy that spawned them. Demons have never been stated to stay dead, but Im unsure due to mallyx being channeled by the revenant which I assume means he is alive somewhere in the mists as he is a mist being. Or perhaps because they were not born of the mists but shaped in mortal shells by abaddon and other such mad-gods they themselves, can leave ripples as they are still not fully of the mists?