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DE issues in wvw


kiranslee.4829

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So im not sure how much you are aware but after killing most of roaming builds (especially for war mains) anet didnt do much to do same for already broken DE. Class that daze and hit for 10k from hide, and able to go hide insta after is still promoting bad unfun play. Rise of de is showing that clearly. Any chance that anyone is looking into this ?

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Here we go again: Anet should NOT have killed Roaming.The problem does not lie with the DE.In order to hit THAT hard as you suggest, we need to run glass. VERY glass.

The problem lies with zerging killing Roaming. Who wants to roam (other than with a deadeye) if you're basically instantly steamrolled the minute a zerg spots you?

I can go on right now... go roaming into enemy territory and record how I will be steamrolled (GARUANTEED) if I don't have stealth capabilities.That video will litterly without editing be max 5 minutes.

Nerve DE, and you nerved one of the last real roaming classes, and with that... the death of WvW.

What you really need to do, is learn how to counter a DE. As many said before: If you know how to counter a DE, you can win relatively easy.

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so what? you are glass? Does not matter because you are stealthed up and highly mobile. Being glass means NOTHING on a class that can engage and disengage at will and without any risk for itself.

Try glass ele. THAT is real glass. And does mediocre damage in comparism.

Got hit by a 10k vault today. Really balanced. Really, really balanced.

Thief needs to be either nuked with the nerf hammer or stealth has to be removed from the game.

Thieves in all their variants are not 'roaming' classes. They are ganking classes. That simple. If one thing has killed 'roaming' which I see a lot btw, it is ganking.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so what? you are glass? Does not matter because you are stealthed up and highly mobile. Being glass means NOTHING on a class that can engage and disengage at will and without any risk for itself.

Try glass ele. THAT is real glass. And does mediocre damage in comparism.

Got hit by a 10k vault today. Really balanced. Really, really balanced.

Thief needs to be either nuked with the nerf hammer or stealth has to be removed from the game.

Thieves in all their variants are not 'roaming' classes. They are ganking classes. That simple. If one thing has killed 'roaming' which I see a lot btw, it is ganking.

If roaming with a glass DE is without risk...more people would be playing the class ganking each other. That is not what's happening.

Also, trying to compare a glass Elementalist to a glass Thief won't help your case either. Elementalist can be as fragile as glass one moment and be as hard as steel in the next moment. Thief has access to 10 weapons skills while Elementalist has access to 20 weapon skills, 5 skills per element, 24 skills with weaver -- and you think that you can compare the two? Really? There is no risk running an Elementalist, they are the most versatile profession in the game.

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DE didn't kill roaming.

Anet killed everything that roamed except Thief.

And since they technically survived the massive nerf meteor, they are more or less the Apex predator of the roaming scene.

And these days, yu see Thieves in zergs too, with their 1200 range Scorpion Wire and just Vault spam on yu.

Thieves are the cockroaches that survived the meteor and are now the Alphas.

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Can't say I agree with that. Playing in multiple servers in both na/eu I only see thieves non-solo. For every 1 thief I come across there is at least five of something else. I still see mesmers trying to get their builds working but many fail to do so, but that could also just be newer players. I actually see a lot more warriors, necros, rangers, revs, guardians , and to some extent engis, running around especially on borderlands. I would even say there's a lack of thieves, but that's just my view from no-lifing it in as many time zones as I can in multiple servers.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so what? you are glass? Does not matter because you are stealthed up and highly mobile. Being glass means NOTHING on a class that can engage and disengage at will and without any risk for itself.

Try glass ele. THAT is real glass. And does mediocre damage in comparism.

Got hit by a 10k vault today. Really balanced. Really, really balanced.

Thief needs to be either nuked with the nerf hammer or stealth has to be removed from the game.

Thieves in all their variants are not 'roaming' classes. They are ganking classes. That simple. If one thing has killed 'roaming' which I see a lot btw, it is ganking.

How do you nuke something with a hammer?

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@kiranslee.4829 said:So im not sure how much you are aware but after killing most of roaming builds (especially for war mains) anet didnt do much to do same for already broken DE. Class that daze and hit for 10k from hide, and able to go hide insta after is still promoting bad unfun play. Rise of de is showing that clearly. Any chance that anyone is looking into this ?

Stealthed, what's there to look at? :tongue:

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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Here we go again: Anet should NOT have killed Roaming.The problem does not lie with the DE.In order to hit THAT hard as you suggest, we need to run glass. VERY glass.

Yeah maybe. But that doesn't even matter. Because de can just go invis again.And can't be hit by most skills anymore.

While de can build full glass. Other classes can't, else they're oneshot by everything else, cause they don't have a mechanic that prevents all damage Other than area damage and there's like no area damage skill, that can solely oneshot a deadeye.

The problem lies with zerging killing Roaming. Who wants to roam (other than with a deadeye) if you're basically instantly steamrolled the minute a zerg spots you?

I can go on right now... go roaming into enemy territory and record how I will be steamrolled (GARUANTEED) if I don't have stealth capabilities.That video will litterly without editing be max 5 minutes.

If you really want to know, what getting steamrolled means, go play necro sand go solo for enemy territory.

Nerve DE, and you nerved one of the last real roaming classes, and with that... the death of WvW.

Well there's still Daredevil. And right now, thief is the class, that can run away from any other class or mount user. So if you drop below 50%, just run away and try again after resetting.

What you really need to do, is learn how to counter a DE. As many said before: If you know how to counter a DE, you can win relatively easy.

If deadeye was as immobile as a necro, I'd agree with you on your points. But right now thief has one of the highest single target damage in the game, combined with the highest mobility, combined with an insane mechanic, that can be used offensively, as well as defensive, with only very very little counterplay to it, and also having the ability to counter some of the counterplay (reveal).

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  • 5 weeks later...

@"Yasai.3549" said:DE didn't kill roaming.

Anet killed everything that roamed except Thief.

And since they technically survived the massive nerf meteor, they are more or less the Apex predator of the roaming scene.

And these days, yu see Thieves in zergs too, with their 1200 range Scorpion Wire and just Vault spam on yu.

Thieves are the cockroaches that survived the meteor and are now the Alphas.

+1

-beta-

'Right, and then he rolls away (like he does in the video) and is invisible again. It'd be one thing if stealth broke on damage, but it doesn't. This is a broken mechanic that needs tweaking.

Hopefully Arenanet is getting plenty of feedback on the Beta boards about it.'

  • 2012

'So im curious if any have had thiefs kite 10 or so poeple around in WvW.Honestly saw a guy pop out of stealth for 4 seconds do some burst, go back to stealth for 4 seconds, pop out do some burst immediatly back to stealth rinse repeat. If he ever got down to half health simply would stealth up and come out full health.The guy was simply not killable even with a group of 8-10 (pub not talking to each other) trying to kill him.'

'It seemed slightly OP that he could seriously go into stealth continously and he was never in any danger of dyeing when facing 10x the numbers. Unless you can get off a chain CC until he is dead there was no killing this guy. And that seems OP to me, considering his burst potential.So my question is this…. how do you counter a thief that can go into stealth at any time, multiple times, non stop? Is this a bug? if not what counter is there? Its very frustrating so im asking for help in a 1v1, 2v1 and xv1 situation. FYI this is coming from a Mesmer and i thougth i had a ton of survivablity but this was just insane.'

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Thiefs-and-WvW

  • 2020

-How To Perma-Stealth-

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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Here we go again: Anet should NOT have killed Roaming.The problem does not lie with the DE.In order to hit THAT hard as you suggest, we need to run glass. VERY glass.

The problem lies with zerging killing Roaming. Who wants to roam (other than with a deadeye) if you're basically instantly steamrolled the minute a zerg spots you?

I can go on right now... go roaming into enemy territory and record how I will be steamrolled (GARUANTEED) if I don't have stealth capabilities.That video will litterly without editing be max 5 minutes.

Nerve DE, and you nerved one of the last real roaming classes, and with that... the death of WvW.

What you really need to do, is learn how to counter a DE. As many said before: If you know how to counter a DE, you can win relatively easy.

So you characterize DE as being the only build capable of entering enemy territory without getting steamrolled by a zerg, as evidence that the elite spec isn't OP?

/golf clap

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I remember when I was joking with friend shortly after HoT release, about Gunflaming people from stealth in WvW, little did we know that ANet would add it years later as thief elite spec, but also with counter to counter, reveal removal elite. Very smart and thoughtful design /sThere was(is?) even that super disgusting abomination, full valkyrie gear permastealth oneshot DE that cannot be oneshotted. So much fun to play against /s jUsT d0dG3 1nv1sIbL3 4tT4cKs. Anet's solution? Let's add useless traps in WvW and let people waste their resources instead of balancing the root of the issue! Yes!Removing reveal removal on elite would make significant difference. Deadeyes would actually have to use brain to decide if engage or not :O

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@"cryorion.9532" said:I remember when I was joking with friend shortly after HoT release, about Gunflaming people from stealth in WvW, little did we know that ANet would add it years later as thief elite spec, but also with counter to counter, reveal removal elite. Very smart and thoughtful design /sThere was(is?) even that super disgusting abomination, full valkyrie gear permastealth oneshot DE that cannot be oneshotted. So much fun to play against /s jUsT d0dG3 1nv1sIbL3 4tT4cKs. Anet's solution? Let's add useless traps in WvW and let people waste their resources instead of balancing the root of the issue! Yes!Removing reveal removal on elite would make significant difference. Deadeyes would actually have to use brain to decide if engage or not :O

Except it doesn't pierce so anyone can bodyblock it, can't be used with a press of 2 buttons on any target you want as you need to mark 1 opponent, spam some crap to get malice and then has a visual/audio cue so it's pretty clear where from it's being used. And also isn't "from stealth", because it reveals before/on cast. SuCh InViSiBlE AtTaCk! :D

But sitting in perma stealth is garbage, so there's that.

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@kiranslee.4829 said:broken DE

Broken. Seriously?

They kill other fullglas builds if they run out doges, reflects, invuls and blocks, barrier or play without sound/ semiafk.I guess there are not much ppl, which lurk by a camp for hours and hours to wait for a solo, which hp go <50% to oneshoot.

DE nowdays is a normal class.Sure they have big amounts of stealth, but stealth dont kills you and if sombody like to play a ghost who ismt doing anything but run around and look - okay.

Its a difference between not gankable & broken.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't think op knows what he is talking about. He just needs to learn to play against stealth builds, which isn't that hard really.

FYI: if a thief is invisible, it's a moment of rest for both of you. He can't attack you without revealing himself. His daze comes from stealing which you should have a stun breaker for, and if not you still have to wait for steal to recharge again before using it

If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

To get that damage, the player has to go full glass meaning only a couple hits from you (anything that didn't require setup) can kill it AND you are not running any toughness or damage mitigation. If you are worried about any of it, then start putting stats into toughness or use a class with higher armor, or proc protection. Also if it's a thief, he needs to build malice. That's easy to do against a player who isn't aggressive, doesn't dodge, block or evade. Do any of those and you make it much harder. If it's a mesmer, then it's probably more than 10k and they don't have to build up like that but instead use 3-4 skills near simultaneously.

Also learn the classes. If you are whiney about the rifle stealth skill... that one is takes a like sec to use and it's obvious, giving you ample notice to dodge. If he is going for backstab, then just don't stand still or drop aoe. Guardians put up aegis and aoe traps, eles put down aoe or move, quickly, warriors use aegis or move quickly, necros put down marks and go into shroud, rangers use traps and stealth, mesmers stealth, other thieves stealth. If you are fighting a mesmer, dodge from phantasms to idk how much time you have to do it. And all those classes have access to toughness stats...glass breaks glass easily.

Remember, you can't kill every build, it's more like rock paper scissors. Thieves can't either and struggle in more 1v1 scenarios than most.

One more thing to keep in mind:Thieves primary defenses are dodging and stealth. That means that while they are defending themselves, they also can't do damage to you. (Yes some attacks have evade frames, but the evades generally don't last the entire attack and leave them open once you learn more about them). Most other classes rely on health and armor. This means while they are trying to not die, they are also not making you die, but while you are trying to not die, you are freely damaging them. It's a massive disadvantage thieves have that it's easily taken advantage of and the primary reason i often will play my necro instead.

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Why are people saying that warrior is dead in WvW/roaming.. it can still work. Things are harder in outnumbered situations not because of nerfs but because conditions ramp up too quickly in fights like that. I think if they nerfed condition damage overall as well things would even out.

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