Elite spec idea: Samurai thief

[Avatar.3568]

I grabbed an idea on a discord.

Thief with longsword: the SamuraiA dueling and short mobility master. Maybe with some sort of dash, blocks or parades and a big potion of skill.

[hatsamu.4327]

Samurai feels more like a warrior archetype, I'm still hoping for an Assassin-inspired spec.

Besides, the Guild Wars world already has its own lore and cultures to pull from, there's no need for them to turn Cantha into literally Japan.

[Alatar.7364]

Samurai definitely sounds more like a Warrior. Even just seeing those two words together feels very very wrong.I want GS though.

[Dadnir.5038]

Samourai are all about honor while thief are all about fighting dirty... You couldn't have 2 themes more apart from each other.Why not go with things like "bandit", "grave robber", "burglar", "scoundrel" that's fitting names for a thief's elite specs.

[Avatar.3568]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Samourai are all about honor while thief are all about fighting dirty... You couldn't have 2 themes more apart from each other.Why not go with things like "bandit", "grave robber", "burglar", "scoundrel" that's fitting names for a thief's elite specs.

What about a ninja, with gs

[Kodama.6453]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Samourai are all about honor while thief are all about fighting dirty... You couldn't have 2 themes more apart from each other.Why not go with things like "bandit", "grave robber", "burglar", "scoundrel" that's fitting names for a thief's elite specs.

What about a ninja, with gs

Ninja is thematically redundant, since the daredevil already fills the ninja niche.Everything about the daredevil reads "ninja". The headpiece you get for completing the training, trait names with heavy Asian thematic or martial arts references, fighting style centered on movement and martial arts techniques or tricks like throwing knives.

Personally, I would want the next elite spec to be some kind of gang leader. Thief is 1 of 2 remaining classes without any real minion master playstyle (the other being warrior) and Renegade already proved that Anet is willing to give that playstyle to elite specs.Also it would make sense thematically, especially considering that gangs fighting for power in the cities of Cantha have been a thing in GW1 (Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood having constant fights in Kaineng and such).

Could make the thief have yakuza vibes, which would be really cool in my opinion. My weapon choice for such an elite spec would be the axe.I know many people want the greatsword on thief, especially because of Belinda's skin. But thief already got 2 2handed weapons with elite specs (staff and rifle), I think a 1handed weapon is overdue. Also 1handed weapons will give the thief new dual wield skills.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Avatar.3568" said:What about a ninja, with gs

You clearly don't care about anything else than the thief getting a greatsword as it's weapon for it's next e-spec, right?Personally I don't think that the thief is an especially good fit for weapon like hammer or greatsword. It's just not a 'logical' flavor. Out of all the weapon thief don't have yet, I think mace would fit well "bandit/scoundrel" theme and torch with a "graverobber/burglar" theme. As for a "ninja" or more specifically a magical theme (Assassins in GW1 use a lot of shadow magic after all), scepter and focus seem way more fitting than greatsword can be.

[Avatar.3568]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Avatar.3568" said:What about a ninja, with gs

You clearly don't care about anything else than the thief getting a greatsword as it's weapon for it's next e-spec, right?Personally I don't think that the thief is an especially good fit for weapon like hammer or greatsword. It's just not a 'logical' flavor. Out of all the weapon thief don't have yet, I think mace would fit well "bandit/scoundrel" theme and torch with a "graverobber/burglar" theme. As for a "ninja" or more specifically a magical theme (Assassins in GW1 use a lot of shadow magic after all), scepter and focus seem way more fitting than greatsword can be.

I am just a pvp player, and would love to see some kinda duelist spec with high skill cap, and a samurai/ninja on thief with greatsword sounds Perfectly for me

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Samurai would kinda fit both really. Warrior or thief.Thiefs traits picture pop culture ninjas, use pop culture ninja tools that were invented by samurai ie caltrops and paper smoke bombs.Ninjutsu was developed by samurai famalies with help of chinese commanders that fled to japan and taught from the young age to select family members chosen for certain tasks. Actually every documented ninja in history was a decorated samurai first.The whole samurai vs ninja is more samurai vs samurai as they each taught and hired their own ninja clans to fight their opposition and when that ended ninjas fought each other to compete for work.I'd say u could make samurai fit either war or thief.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:What about a ninja, with gs

You clearly don't care about anything else than the thief getting a greatsword as it's weapon for it's next e-spec, right?Personally I don't think that the thief is an especially good fit for weapon like hammer or greatsword. It's just not a 'logical' flavor. Out of all the weapon thief don't have yet, I think mace would fit well "bandit/scoundrel" theme and torch with a "graverobber/burglar" theme. As for a "ninja" or more specifically a magical theme (Assassins in GW1 use a lot of shadow magic after all), scepter and focus seem way more fitting than greatsword can be.

I am just a pvp player, and would love to see some kinda duelist spec with high skill cap, and a samurai/ninja on thief with greatsword sounds Perfectly for me

I have a hard time understanding why the thief would need another duellist spec and how gs would be fit for such a thing. Don't get me wrong but the core thief is mostly a duellist, DD is also mostly a duellist and DE hardly manage to look like a range team support, being mostly used as a duellist. And GS don't scream high skill cap, no, if anything, every thief weapon skillset are bound to be low skill cap due to the fact that they depend on initiative.

If anything, the thief need to work better in team and be sturdier instead of ellusive. So less "duellist" stuff can only be better for it.

Remember that a weapon is only flavor, what matter in an elite spec is how it's main mechanisms are bent and the traits. DD is not defined by it's staff, it's define by it's peculiar dodges and DE isn't defined by it's rifle but by the mark it's effects on stealth attack. Staff and riffle only really give some flavor to the e-specs.

Now, when you say samourai or ninja, what do you imagine that would define it? A greatsword? If I equipe dagger/pistol and shortbow, am I playing the samourai or the ninja? Yes? No? Maybe? What in the gameplay of the samourai/ninja call to the greatsword? When I think about a samourai, I picture a man in an antique red heavy armor and a helmet with an steely mask, nothing close to a thief. When I think about a ninja, I picture something more agile playing with magic, sure it fit the thief but the greatsword, no.

[Kodama.6453]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:What about a ninja, with gs

You clearly don't care about anything else than the thief getting a greatsword as it's weapon for it's next e-spec, right?Personally I don't think that the thief is an especially good fit for weapon like hammer or greatsword. It's just not a 'logical' flavor. Out of all the weapon thief don't have yet, I think mace would fit well "bandit/scoundrel" theme and torch with a "graverobber/burglar" theme. As for a "ninja" or more specifically a magical theme (Assassins in GW1 use a lot of shadow magic after all), scepter and focus seem way more fitting than greatsword can be.

I am just a pvp player, and would love to see some kinda duelist spec with high skill cap, and a samurai/ninja on thief with greatsword sounds Perfectly for me

I have a hard time understanding why the thief would need another duellist spec and how gs would be fit for such a thing. Don't get me wrong but the core thief is mostly a duellist, DD is also mostly a duellist and DE hardly manage to look like a range team support, being mostly used as a duellist. And GS don't scream high skill cap, no, if anything, every thief weapon skillset are bound to be low skill cap due to the fact that they depend on initiative.

If anything, the thief need to work better in team and be sturdier instead of ellusive. So less "duellist" stuff can only be better for it.

Remember that a weapon is only flavor, what matter in an elite spec is how it's main mechanisms are bent and the traits. DD is not defined by it's staff, it's define by it's peculiar dodges and DE isn't defined by it's rifle but by the mark it's effects on stealth attack. Staff and riffle only really give some flavor to the e-specs.

Now, when you say samourai or ninja, what do you imagine that would define it? A greatsword? If I equipe dagger/pistol and shortbow, am I playing the samourai or the ninja? Yes? No? Maybe? What in the gameplay of the samourai/ninja call to the greatsword? When I think about a samourai, I picture a man in an antique red heavy armor and a helmet with an steely mask, nothing close to a thief. When I think about a ninja, I picture something more agile playing with magic, sure it fit the thief but the greatsword, no.

If they really go the shadow magic route, then it shouldn't be a ninja archetype. Like I explained, thief already has a ninja inspired elite spec. I know, ninja are popular, I love them, too. But there is really no need for the thief to get 2 elite specs that fill this ninja archetype.

[Avatar.3568]

Thief is mostly useless in fighting in pvp atm, and can duel anything (only bad players)

With the initiative, dashes and parades would give some big floor for skillcap

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:What about a ninja, with gs

You clearly don't care about anything else than the thief getting a greatsword as it's weapon for it's next e-spec, right?Personally I don't think that the thief is an especially good fit for weapon like hammer or greatsword. It's just not a 'logical' flavor. Out of all the weapon thief don't have yet, I think mace would fit well "bandit/scoundrel" theme and torch with a "graverobber/burglar" theme. As for a "ninja" or more specifically a magical theme (Assassins in GW1 use a lot of shadow magic after all), scepter and focus seem way more fitting than greatsword can be.

I am just a pvp player, and would love to see some kinda duelist spec with high skill cap, and a samurai/ninja on thief with greatsword sounds Perfectly for me

I have a hard time understanding why the thief would need another duellist spec and how gs would be fit for such a thing. Don't get me wrong but the core thief is mostly a duellist, DD is also mostly a duellist and DE hardly manage to look like a range team support, being mostly used as a duellist. And GS don't scream high skill cap, no, if anything, every thief weapon skillset are bound to be low skill cap due to the fact that they depend on initiative.

If anything, the thief need to work better in team and be sturdier instead of ellusive. So less "duellist" stuff can only be better for it.

Remember that a weapon is only flavor, what matter in an elite spec is how it's main mechanisms are bent and the traits. DD is not defined by it's staff, it's define by it's peculiar dodges and DE isn't defined by it's rifle but by the mark it's effects on stealth attack. Staff and riffle only really give some flavor to the e-specs.

Now, when you say samourai or ninja, what do you imagine that would define it? A greatsword? If I equipe dagger/pistol and shortbow, am I playing the samourai or the ninja? Yes? No? Maybe? What in the gameplay of the samourai/ninja call to the greatsword? When I think about a samourai, I picture a man in an antique red heavy armor and a helmet with an steely mask, nothing close to a thief. When I think about a ninja, I picture something more agile playing with magic, sure it fit the thief but the greatsword, no.

If they really go the shadow magic route, then it shouldn't be a ninja archetype. Like I explained, thief already has a ninja inspired elite spec. I know, ninja are popular, I love them, too. But there is really no need for the thief to get 2 elite specs that fill this ninja archetype.

I agree with this ^ thief is basically a ninja wrongly named as thief. Sure it has steal but every single trait and utility are named and function after pop culture ninja's.Making ninja a new spec wouldn't enough to distinguish it.I think samurai would fit thief if they wanted to change things up with the new specs.When I visited the iga museum there were old ninja armors on display that looked exactly like samurai armor but lighter, they said they could roll them up and stash if needed but they were behind glass so couldn't test em lol.A ninja is literally a samurai trained in ninjitsu on top of their normal training. Obviously during its later periods its guessed non samurai family members probably joined the camps as work was scarce.The ninja sword isnt actually historicaly proven, again probable changes made by pop culture. Ninjas most common sword was the standard katana aka samurai sword as they were readily available and a common site.Shuriken and caltrops were invented by samuria.Samurai where honorable to their lord and family but dishonorable to anyone the lord wishes as I'd bring dishonor to not do so.Considering in reality samurai invented ninjitsu, taught it and shared most weapons with ninja I'd say there really isnt a closer fit to a samaria spec then a class that is literally all ready a ninja lolWarrior would work to cuz the armor and belindas skin and lb but how samurai are war skills on either, guess gs5.Both would be cool. I see a lot of off hand sword as well, be cool to.

[Lighter.5631]

samurai has always been warrior and thief's counter part has always been ninja in lots of japanese games

and often samurai and ninja fight each other.

if you want duelist with high skill cap at the moment, holo and spellbreaker are good beats with swords

[googel.3278]

new elite spec for thief would have to be another coward spec, more runs and stealth

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lol man ninja has been miss represented by pop culture. A lot of what people clearly think a ninja was is in fact a made up romanticizstion.Again samurai developed ninjutsu and samurai taught that ninjutsu to their young as a means of adapting to different war fare. Every documented ninja I history was a decorated samurai. Leader of the iga clan was a decorated samurai given that role during to his status. A ninja is a samurai and a samurai is a ninja it just depends on the role they were chosen for. Ninjas were taught the same way as samurai but with additional knowledge and skill of ninjutsu, at least at the beginning of ninjutsu as there a high probability commoners would have joined the clans at later stages of the clans history as work was scarce.Also this noble code of the samurai has been misrepresented by pop culture as well. Is it noble to burn down a house full of innocent children? Cuz if a samurai lord demanded that of a samurai it was a dishonorable act to disobey the lord and u can guess what actually happened in real history.Most historically accurate depictions of samurai all have one thing In common and that is samurai rarely used their swords outside of training and as a status piece and further later on in the life of samurai flint lock rifles were very popular with samurai, not really what ud think when thinking of honorable combat lol.Honestly as far as class specializations any class resembling a ninja would in fact be a closer association with samurai than any other class archetype unless that class was a tailored samurai class.Almost all classes and fighters are considered warriors even a battle mage is a type of warrior just as a knight is as well so thinking a generalistic warrior class automatically relates to samurai is a bit off imo.

[hatsamu.4327]

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

Different skills, different job, differently viewed by society. . . sounds like in gaming that would be a profession change/reroll.

I mean, thank you for the history lesson, but I don't think you should get too carried away with using "this is how it was in historical Japan" as a rule or justification. Thief has elements of ninja, sure (because it has elements of Assassin btw), but you shouldn't try to conform the history and culture of Tyria to Earth's.

I think regardless if it's historically accurate or romanticized, when people pick classes they're looking forward to playing certain themes. And the GW2 description of the Warrior is the weapons master of the battlefield.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@hatsamu.4327 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

Different skills, different job, differently viewed by society. . . sounds like in gaming that would be a profession change/reroll.

I mean, thank you for the history lesson, but I don't think you should get too carried away with using "this is how it was in historical Japan" as a rule or justification. Thief has elements of ninja, sure (because it has elements of Assassin btw), but you shouldn't try to conform the history and culture of Tyria to Earth's.

I think regardless if it's historically accurate or romanticized, when people pick classes they're looking forward to playing certain themes. And the GW2 description of the Warrior is the weapons master of the battlefield.

Lol true enough. I realize tyria isn't the same as reality was just stating samurai would fit thief as much as warrior and reasons why. Thing is with warrior weapon master foes as far as using lots of weapons for sure,unfortunately non of the war current skill sets are in any way stylized or technique wise like samurai. I go as far to say other than the tele thief sword and sb as well as staff thematically fit more than any warrior skills.Each there own tho.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Kodama.6453" said:If they really go the shadow magic route, then it shouldn't be a ninja archetype. Like I explained, thief already has a ninja inspired elite spec. I know, ninja are popular, I love them, too. But there is really no need for the thief to get 2 elite specs that fill this ninja archetype.

I do agree, there is no need for another "ninja" e-spec. Daredevil fill already quite well the "acrobatic" side of the picture someone get when thinking about a "ninja".

Personally I'd look for something more fitting for the world of Tyria like a shadow mage, a scoundrel or a grave-robber. GW1's assassin is mostly a shadow mage using shadow to heal himself or harrass it's foes without necessarily going in stealth (so there is lore supporting the idea). There is more than enough thug in Tyria's cities to justify something like a scoundrel and grave-robbing isn't really outside the box of GW's world either.

That's what I'm expecting, not some duellist greatsword wielder with "high" skillcap. Something unrealistic based on the core profession since like I said, the greatsword won't add any skillcap with how initiative work (even less since you won't necessarily use GS) and the core tools leave only some room for what the thief already does. Another duellist dealing big number when leaving stealth but with a greatsword would be a very underwhelming/disappointing e-spec.

[Avatar.3568]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:If they really go the shadow magic route, then it shouldn't be a ninja archetype. Like I explained, thief already has a ninja inspired elite spec. I know, ninja are popular, I love them, too. But there is really no need for the thief to get 2 elite specs that fill this ninja archetype.

I do agree, there is no need for another "ninja" e-spec. Daredevil fill already quite well the "acrobatic" side of the picture someone get when thinking about a "ninja".

Personally I'd look for something more fitting for the world of Tyria like a shadow mage, a scoundrel or a grave-robber. GW1's assassin is mostly a shadow mage using shadow to heal himself or harrass it's foes without necessarily going in stealth (so there is lore supporting the idea). There is more than enough thug in Tyria's cities to justify something like a scoundrel and grave-robbing isn't really outside the box of GW's world either.

That's what I'm expecting, not some duellist greatsword wielder with "high" skillcap. Something unrealistic based on the core profession since like I said, the greatsword won't add any skillcap with how initiative work (even less since you won't necessarily use GS) and the core tools leave only some room for what the thief already does. Another duellist dealing big number when leaving stealth but with a greatsword would be a very underwhelming/disappointing e-spec.

Sure how could resource management never go toe to toe with skill cap

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Avatar.3568" said:Sure how could resource management never go toe to toe with skill cap

It's actually pretty simple: "By giving a weapon a one shot gimmick on the AA and leaving other weapon skill costing ressource more of an utility role." Which is the thief in a nutshell. There is no "skill" involved the initiative system, you either have access to some utility or blindly spend all your ressource into the most effective skill of your kit and the best part is that you still have access to your whole utility skills that "cost" virtually nothing. The only "skill" involved into the thief gameplay (core/DE/DD) is positioning and this have nothing to do with their skillset.

Fovusing your wishes onto a weapon won't lead you anywhere near to something "skillfull" based on the thiefs main mechanisms. You'll still only have to rely on positioning for any skillful play. And that requiert a lot of player skill, don't get me wrong. It's not given to everyone to perform well in positioning. But as far as skillsets are involved, initiative as a mechanism certainly don't promote high skill cap. You're even suggesting parade and block, on a weapon with no CD, using initiative, how can you expect something like that to requiert "skill"? The only thing you'd get is people whinning about thief "OP endless block followed with evade".