Should we Quest to Unlock Elite Specializations?

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

Despite spending 90% of my game time in wvw the theme of the class is very important to me. And as such hacing a little bit of lore in the form of an achievement story quest would be awesome. I wished they had done it in HoT and PoF aswell.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

It was nicer than HoT. But it was very hollow. And I unlocked Scourge right away, which was fine, but I felt like I didn't earn it. It felt cheap to me.Nothing personal, but this sounds more like a "you" problem.

clearly not, as the game is still losing players.

And especs not being locked behind quest/s has nothing to do with it, not sure why you keep pretending that's the reason.

A strawman of my argument is very easy to defeat when you don't actually read what I'm saying.

But I did and I already answered at length why what you say is straight up false.What exactly did I miss here? Once again you're trying to make it seem like the game is losing players (btw, I asked before for some official source on that -more specifically the player count of gw2 and other mmorpg/s and received nothing on that) because it doesn't have quests to unlock especs. That's a completely made up claim.

So explain to me what exactly I'm not understanding about what you're saying and in what way it's not completely made up to support your own opinion in the first place. If anything, it seems you've forgotten what you were answering to, which was:Your opinion: "And I unlocked Scourge right away, which was fine, but I felt like I didn't earn it. It felt cheap to me."Someone's response: "Nothing personal, but this sounds more like a "you" problem."You: "clearly not, as the game is still losing players."

If that's not directly correlating player loss to the way unlocking especs works then your answer is simply irrelevant to the posts you were quoting.

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

It was nicer than HoT. But it was very hollow. And I unlocked Scourge right away, which was fine, but I felt like I didn't earn it. It felt cheap to me.Nothing personal, but this sounds more like a "you" problem.

clearly not, as the game is still losing players.

And especs not being locked behind quest/s has nothing to do with it, not sure why you keep pretending that's the reason.

A strawman of my argument is very easy to defeat when you don't actually read what I'm saying.

But I did and I already answered at length why what you say is straight up false.What exactly did I miss here? Once again you're trying to make it seem like the game is losing players (btw, I asked before for some official source on that -more specifically the player count of gw2 and other mmorpg/s and received nothing on that) because it doesn't have quests to unlock especs. That's a completely made up claim.

So explain to me what exactly I'm not understanding about what you're saying and in what way it's not completely made up to support your own opinion in the first place. If anything, it seems you've forgotten what you were answering to, which was:Your opinion: "And I unlocked Scourge right away, which was fine, but I felt like I didn't earn it. It felt cheap to me."Someone's response: "Nothing personal, but this sounds more like a "you" problem."You: "clearly not, as the game is still losing players."

If that's not directly correlating player loss to the way unlocking especs works then your answer is simply irrelevant to the posts you were quoting.

Guild Wars 2's active population is somewhere around 400k. This is what I've seen while researching, now that's not daily activity which is a couple thousand. Compare this to the other top MMOs such as WoW and FF14 which active is closer to 1.5m. That's 3 times what GW2 is which GW2's popularity has noticeably slipped being number 2 in 2015 and now number 9 in 2020. The information is difficult to assess as they don't provide much of what's needed to properly ascertain the information but its been common knowledge outside of the GW2 forums that GW2 is in sharp decline. Whether you and a couple other's BELIEVE it or not is irrelevant. External perception is more important as that can and does influence the of those coming into the game. If they see a failing game they're unlikely to want to join. With the around Half of the company layoffs last year this perception has taken a toll on the game as a whole. All of these games do have a decline of Active players, except lately which is we can correlate to the covid-19 virus which would skew the numbers as more people are home. Yes, I understand correlation does not equal causation, but we're seeing an increase in MMO activity in the past month for all MMOs not just GW2.

Now onto GW2's issues. I never once said that GW2's problem is they don't have Questing for E-spects. That is a strawman of my argument and yes, that's easy to defeat. If I said it. But I did not. What I did say is that something like this helps player engagement with the world. And the Game absolutely needs this. This specifically referring to player engagement and not quests specifically. The game needs PLAYER ENGAGEMENT! If I didn't make myself clear enough then I'm sorry, that is my fault.

I've been feeling a lot of stress lately with this virus as I'm immune compromised working in an essential job, so I'm sorry if I'm short with you guys when you have misunderstood what I've been saying. That is on me. I'll try to be more patient.

So lets get back to WHY I want this, and ignore the people complaining about this suggestion for WvW and PvP because I did specifically mention that unlocking this wouldn't be the same for those game modes which for PvP it wouldn't at all and for WvW it would be the same as it is now or offer an alternative that gives you access to it right away. So this argument is just frustating because its completely irrelevant to the post since this post is focused on PvE not on the competitive formats which I wouldn't force them to play PvE like how I despise being forced to play WvW for my gift of battle. It was never my intention to force PvP or WvW players to play PvE and I made that abundantly clear which people didn't read anyway.

From the results of this Question so far, its slightly in favor of Questing for PvE. Why is that? I can give you my assumption. The players that want this want more of a reason to stay in the game for longer and more of a reason to engage with the world. Skins don't always do this for the player and the collections for the Specialization weapons haven't provided us with that desire. Clearly there is something missing in its design. Its not scratching that itch. Why I brought up Final Fantasy 14 isn't just because of that but it offers players far more engagement with the world that isn't tucked away in a menu within a menu. There is something about the engagement of the Questing systems in other MMOs that draws players into doing them. Its a compulsion that GW2 doesn't have. We do have hearts which are like quests but don't offer the same level of interaction and depth that other game's quests actually offer. Events get really close and I adore them, but the experience I and other's get are not the same as we get with these quests.

Final Fantasy gives better player engagement with their avatar. And I do believe quests have something to do with that. There are a lot of players who complain about having to play GW2, and what I mean by that is when anything requires any amount of effort to acquire there is complaints. It happened with HoT with the first elite specs which took a while to acquire at first. It was admittedly a bit too long to acquire but Anet over corrected with that and the other underlying problem with the acquisition was that it wasn't meaningful content. It was cookie cutter content that was always the same no matter what.

Why I suspect some people are against it is because they don't believe Arena net can create engaging content. I know they can because they created Hundreds of engaging quests in GW1. The other aspect of it is these players who don't want to spend even an hour or two of their 500+ hours game time on working for something meaningful they want everything now and that's that. The issue is that this leaves the players who do want more engagement with less content and for new players to more likely leave to another MMO, or if they want things now, more likely to engage with a different game genera entirely.

[Sobx.1758]

Nope, it wasn't a strawman, that's what you wrote multiple times. If that's not what you've meant, then that's fine, but don't pretend you didn't type that out and that I've made it up.

Why I suspect some people are against it is because they don't believe Arena net can create engaging content.

No, I've already wrote why I'm against it and that's not it. Kind of tired of this already.

[Lily.1935]

@Sobx.1758 said:Nope, it wasn't a strawman, that's what you wrote multiple times. If that's not what you've meant, then that's fine, but don't pretend you didn't type that out and that I've made it up.

Why I suspect some people are against it is because they don't believe Arena net can create engaging content.

No, I've already wrote why I'm against it and that's not it. Kind of tired of this already.

Quote it then. If you're going to assume otherwise I get to too. What I said is correct, you do believe they can't create engaging content.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nope, it wasn't a strawman, that's what you wrote multiple times. If that's not what you've meant, then that's fine, but don't pretend you didn't type that out and that I've made it up.

Why I suspect some people are against it is because they don't believe Arena net can create engaging content.

No, I've already wrote why I'm against it and that's not it. Kind of tired of this already.

Quote it then. If you're going to assume otherwise I get to too.

I already did quote it? You keep using anything along the lines of "it's less popular than x" or "then why is it losing players?" as your seemingly "final argument" against people disagreeing with your opinion. I won't reread the thread, so just from the posts I've already responded to:

1. "That can't happen because they're genaric. And I said a 2 hour adventure. Not 30 minutes. We need more engaging content. And other games are making that obvious to me that anet has a lack of the ability to pull people in and keep them here." -you're saying that class quests are something that will pull people in and keep them here, but that's very obviously false. Something "one-off" like that isn't what pulls people in and ESPECIALLY keeps them in the game. If that's not what you've meant, then not sure what was the point of writing that sentence in this thread.

2. I responded with "Also claiming that a spec unlock quests are something that would "pull people in and keep them here" is just plain false, right?", to which you directly responded:"FF14 has much longer class quest chain and it is currently more popular than GW2. It's not the only reason why, but the questing and story Telling absolutely contributes to that."Class quest chains have nothing to do with majority of its popularity. If any AT ALL. Let alone saying it could make people stay, because that's not a long-term, repeatable content.

3. Already quoted in the post above:Your opinion: "And I unlocked Scourge right away, which was fine, but I felt like I didn't earn it. It felt cheap to me."Someone's response: "Nothing personal, but this sounds more like a "you" problem."You: "clearly not, as the game is still losing players."

If that's not you saying that it loses players because of not having class change quests, then I don't understand what you were responding to.

What I said is correct, you do believe they can't create engaging content.

No, not sure why you're saying this, but you're wrong. Make sure to tell me why apparently"I believe they can't create engaging content" (which I do not).

[Obtena.7952]

Honestly, I like the OP's thinking but why make it one or the other? Frankly, I would prefer to have a CHOICE. I do think there was weak link between earning the Espec and the story but I don't think the answer should be this or that.

EVERY elite spec would need a storyline and that's a practical limitation, so it's clear if there is something that deviates, we have to pay for it. So what I recommend ... players can choose either path to unlock an espec ... either the way it is now, or a purchased DLC with the storyline quest explaining the Espec. Naturally, it's reasonable that players that pay for the extra DLC would get some nice thing for doing so ....

[Lily.1935]

@Obtena.7952 said:Honestly, I like the OP's thinking but why make it one or the other? Frankly, I would prefer to have a CHOICE. I do think there was weak link between earning the Espec and the story but I don't think the answer should be this or that.

EVERY elite spec would need a storyline and that's a practical limitation, so it's clear if there is something that deviates, we have to pay for it. So what I recommend ... players can choose either path to unlock an espec ... either the way it is now, or a purchased DLC with the storyline quest explaining the Espec. Naturally, it's reasonable that players that pay for the extra DLC would get some nice thing for doing so ....

I'd lock some reward behind taking the long path then. Like a unique skin or something. So we can incentivize plays who think they wouldn't like it to try it out.

I do think once you've done the unlock path you wouldn't have to again for alts of the same class.

Players are lazy though. And players will sabatoge their own experience without realizing it if the option is given to them. Which is why I'm against that. I personally am aware of that tendency so I don't accidentally sabotage my own experience as often. It still happens with bad game design, but not always.

For example, the best experience I ever had while playing Skyrim was when I put in survivalist mods and disabled fast travel. I stripped convenience away from my experience and even though I had played the game for over 300 hours at that point I found it to be amazing. I was planning my rout, my meals and crafting equipment specifically to survive the harsh winter.

Now I wouldn't say there is no trade off. There always is. There is the extreme of what I did for Skyrim but I'm not asking for an extreme This is mild at best. It's not nearly as long as it would be for hero point hunting at HoT release nor as difficult.

Developers do discuss these issues though. How much convenience should they give the players? Extra Credit, the YouTube channel run by people in the gaming industry, talk about this balancing act and if I remembered the video I'd link it.

Most gamers will choose the easiest option. This should be obvious from your own experience. It is from mine. And I've done it myself. Sometimes intentionally and sometimes not.

Guild wars 2 has an engagement problem and this harms player retention. I have attempted to bring people into gw2 as well. Over a dozen. None of them stick with the game. They mostly say the game's combat is great and the visuals are great. So why don't they stay? I can think of several reasons. The lack of earning one's power is one of them. The other reasons involve an overly easy open world, horrible dungeon balance and a lot of dead fan favorite builds such as minions and turrets...

[Obtena.7952]

@Lily.1935 My only disagreement with anything in your above post is that I would give the player the CHOICE to unlock an already completed path on an alt ... some people would want to do it again.

The best MMO's I've played give players choices ... and lots of them. Of course, that's more work, so it's up to Anet to decide what choices are value add to a customer and support the game properly. I think one of the places GW2 falls flat is that Anet doesn't create content you can purchase in the Gemstore. Sure, I can buy a chair ... and I guess I can look cool in it ... or I can buy a side story linked to my character that gives me more context to things ... things like espec, mounts, more background into lore history, etc ... there should be nothing holding Anet back from selling us content like this except their resources or imagination.

[Lily.1935]

@Obtena.7952 said:@Lily.1935 My only disagreement with anything in your above post is that I would give the player the CHOICE to unlock an already completed path on an alt ... some people would want to do it again.

The best MMO's I've played give players choices ... and lots of them. Of course, that's more work, so it's up to Anet to decide what choices are value add to a customer and support the game properly. I think one of the places GW2 falls flat is that Anet doesn't create content you can purchase in the Gemstore. Sure, I can buy a chair ... and I guess I can look cool in it ... or I can buy a side story linked to my character that gives me more context to things ... things like espec, mounts, more background into lore history, etc ... there should be nothing holding Anet back from selling us content like this except their resources or imagination.

I'm not a fan of locking content behind a second pay wall when the expansion already is a pay wall.

[hugo.4705]

Well i'm always for lore, HoT specs were just thrown on my face without lores, NPCs related to them to explain their origin plus, we are the only one within HoT maps to have those specs, all the pact soldiers here don't even know about them like they never existed. There is some of the commander guild having the specs like rytlock becoming revenant but well. PoF at least put an elite specs specialist in amnoon and some npcs related to each spec around with some dialogues. It's a good step.I hope Cantha expac will have such NPCS and will be more PoF like regarding that point. There is clearly an issue with the lore since the start; as example imagine a new player, you just pop as an asura without knowing anything about the colleges, as a charr and you don't know a lot about legions apart well the few events you do around and some story steps. (Just see the wiki page of Blood legion to see how empty they are)

Just a thought about lore in general in the game:

! Kinda redundant but GW2 is an mmo with wasted potential. Sure it's great, but when you look closely, everything is superficial. It has been now what, 7 years, do we have a proper explanation about Mallyck and its tree, Sbubbbles, the origin of the Inquest, the mysterious underground asura megacities, woodland cascades, far north magumaa wastes, dominion of winds????! In 7 years, we visited: Rata Novus, an underground city but in ruins, Rata Primus, an Inquest city-base, Drakkar's lake, Rata Arcanum, Crystal desert....! And no proper lore or story. Inquest base without any infos about them, a lake where the dragon lieutenant is so stupid to stay under in the ice to be killed, a settlement in draconis mons without nothing apart a few golems, a desert that speak about forgotten but what you have is only statue and some branded. Mallyck well totally forgotten, Sbubbles maybe apart if it's forgotten for 7 more years. Even the most recent event, we arrive in grothmar we learn nothing apart well "Hey We're blood legion, we hate other legions and outlanders, Bangar is truth, Bangar is life"....! I don't speak about lore based on external sources, I speak of In game lore. Find a proper NPC speaking about the college of dynamics as example....! For well documented race pages in most case it's based on a random interview, the codexes that have been removed or an article somewhere... some links are now bugged and not working.

[thepenmonster.3621]

I was originally thinking that FF14 was popular because it was part of one of the world's most beloved franchises and that you can make your own Fran. Turns out it was due to having more busywork to do. Never underestimate collecting bear butts I guess.

I probably would play a story quest that unlocks the entire set of elites though. But only as long as it's part of the main story. "The Big Door O Mystery can only be opened with the blessings of the 9 ancients, Commander."

I mean we've always been questing. Hearts, events, HPs, masteries. It's all the same thing with without being directly told to do it. (much in the same way seasons are just slower expacs) But a lot of players can't seem to get their minds wrapped around that so they probably DO need a wizened old Canthan on a hill to tell them to go stab their way to a few HPs.

So yeah. I'm for it now. Tell me where the bear butts are, Anet.

[Lily.1935]

@"thepenmonster.3621" said:I was originally thinking that FF14 was popular because it was part of one of the world's most beloved franchises and that you can make your own Fran. Turns out it was due to having more busywork to do. Never underestimate collecting bear butts I guess.

I probably would play a story quest that unlocks the entire set of elites though. But only as long as it's part of the main story. "The Big Door O Mystery can only be opened with the blessings of the 9 ancients, Commander."

I mean we've always been questing. Hearts, events, HPs, masteries. It's all the same thing with without being directly told to do it. (much in the same way seasons are just slower expacs) But a lot of players can't seem to get their minds wrapped around that so they probably DO need a wizened old Canthan on a hill to tell them to go stab their way to a few HPs.

So yeah. I'm for it now. Tell me where the bear butts are, Anet.

FF14 actually failed at launch due to some poor design choices and they relaunched it as a realm reborn. Popularity doesn't always translate to an extremely popular MMO.

[Firebeard.1746]

Given the results, I'm thinking that it shouldn't change much from current format, but as a little more than half of players want some lore, it should be "optional" content (unlockable without story line). If you swap to something different in Cantha, then you risk pissing off 40% of the player base, which is a bad idea. So some middle ground should be provided to make everyone happy.

[CedarDog.9723]

I'm fine with a quest that isn't too long (maybe an hour max), if, and only if, they remove the need to gather hero points to unlock all the traits.

[Black Storm.6974]

I’d say no to anything Achievement related. I just hate doing Achievements. If it was for me, Gw2 would not have a single Achievement.

[Lily.1935]

@"Firebeard.1746" said:Given the results, I'm thinking that it shouldn't change much from current format, but as a little more than half of players want some lore, it should be "optional" content (unlockable without story line). If you swap to something different in Cantha, then you risk pissing off 40% of the player base, which is a bad idea. So some middle ground should be provided to make everyone happy.

Alright tell me what you think of this idea.

An opt in option at the elite specialization section of the Hero tab on your bar.

Once you click on it it'll ask you if you would like to opt into its adventure and your hero points get spent to unlock thos quest chain. You can choose not to opt in if you like but at the end of the quest chain you will get a unique skin for your troubles. You would still use the Hero points and there is an extra something for those who bothered with it.

Now added to that, even if you completely max out your elite spec without doing the quests if you so choose and want the item you can obtain it the unique item by doing the quests at a later date. They wont require hero points or the point requirement would scale based on how many points you've spent on the spec. I wouldn't lock you out of the item or the quest just because you took the short route.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if these side quests were voiced acted or not. We don't need a tone of dialog. But it would be nice. I and many others want to engage more with our characters.

If it's an opt in though, I'd prefer it to be much longer in length.

[Lily.1935]

These are not the videos I was referencing earlier, but they are relevant to the topic as it does show the sort of engagement that excites me personally. Been a few years since I've watched them and they are worth a watch if you haven't seen them.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Lily.1935" said:[vid1]

[vid2]

These are not the videos I was referencing earlier, but they are relevant to the topic as it does show the sort of engagement that excites me personally. Been a few years since I've watched them and they are worth a watch if you haven't seen them.

Great videos! Interestingly enough, a lot of what he's saying here also covers what I've already wrote in this post.1st part talks about typical mmorpg quests being used to direct the player rather than being engaging themselves. To quote from it: "The quests themselves should be something that the player wants to do. Inherently, not just for the reward." -enjoyable quests and engaging stories "defend" themselves and pull people in through the potential praise it receives on the media (forum, reddit, gaming portals, blogs etc). When you suggest that you NEED to hide valuable/gamechanging rewards (which especs definitely are), you're saying that the quests don't need to be good as long as the reward locked behind them is pretty much unskippable. The rewards aren't what makes the world engaging and interactive in an mmorpg, the content itself is and if the content itself is good, you don't need to put a bait at the end of it. Making it fully optional is especially important in a game with gameplay choices that GW2 made, where you can level up "on your terms" by doing pretty much whatever you like.

In the second part, he gives an example of a sort-of scavenger hunt type of quest, which I also proposed in the previous post as something optional with the first item being part of a collection (which makes just the first point of the journey well marked, so people potentially interested in it won't miss it), which can be gained from an npc that gives you hints for the next npcs/destination points. But for the quest/lore piece to be engaging and make the world more immersive, you BY FAR don't need to lock an espec behind it. And I'd even argue you SHOULDN'T, because if it'll impact anything at all, it would potentially just make people want to rush through it for the reward instead of actually enjoy and appreciate the content at their own pace.Then he praises usage of emotes needed to complete certain quests, which already is a thing in some of the events in gw2.There are also some (although just a few) kind-of-stealth events in gw2, with pretty much "one-shot" mechanic, except they don't actually kill you but just fail the "mission".Then he talks about straining away from the typical "town hub quest-giving-npc spam" and environmental quests, which is what gw2 already did/does with its event system. And it's a good thing, so I hope they won't make a step back because it would want to be "more like those other mmorpgs".Finally, he also talks about how he thinks "most of what we call quests should be reduced to tasks"... which is what GW2 achievement tab offers. That way we can have more freedom (which is something you've claimed players don't want) and I'm convinced THAT'S what makes the world more immersive and engaging.

So yes, I agree with majority of what was said in the videos you've linked and by extension still think there's no valid reason to lock the especs behind the chain of quests, because the reward doesn't make content better and potentially cheapens it by encouraging players to rush through it.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:@Lily.1935 My only disagreement with anything in your above post is that I would give the player the CHOICE to unlock an already completed path on an alt ... some people would want to do it again.

The best MMO's I've played give players choices ... and lots of them. Of course, that's more work, so it's up to Anet to decide what choices are value add to a customer and support the game properly. I think one of the places GW2 falls flat is that Anet doesn't create content you can purchase in the Gemstore. Sure, I can buy a chair ... and I guess I can look cool in it ... or I can buy a side story linked to my character that gives me more context to things ... things like espec, mounts, more background into lore history, etc ... there should be nothing holding Anet back from selling us content like this except their resources or imagination.

I'm not a fan of locking content behind a second pay wall when the expansion already is a pay wall.

Maybe ... but there wouldn't be anything unreasonable about doing so. I mean, let me put it this way ... either way, you pay through a 'second paywall' (which is a little unreasonable to call it that since you wouldn't actually pay for that content twice to begin with) or you just pay more in an expansion that has that option included.

Here is the kicker. If it's optional content, it would be unfair to make people pay as part of an expansion who doesn't want that option. Frankly, I think you need to be much more flexible in your thinking if you want to be taken seriously. Content MUST be paid for because it takes Anet time and resources to make it. If that content is offered in a way that people MUST buy it, it's a no go, especially if some people don't want the content. That's when people leave.

[Lily.1935]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:@Lily.1935 My only disagreement with anything in your above post is that I would give the player the CHOICE to unlock an already completed path on an alt ... some people would want to do it again.

The best MMO's I've played give players choices ... and lots of them. Of course, that's more work, so it's up to Anet to decide what choices are value add to a customer and support the game properly. I think one of the places GW2 falls flat is that Anet doesn't create content you can purchase in the Gemstore. Sure, I can buy a chair ... and I guess I can look cool in it ... or I can buy a side story linked to my character that gives me more context to things ... things like espec, mounts, more background into lore history, etc ... there should be nothing holding Anet back from selling us content like this except their resources or imagination.

I'm not a fan of locking content behind a second pay wall when the expansion already is a pay wall.

Maybe ... but there wouldn't be anything unreasonable about doing so. I mean, let me put it this way ... either way, you pay through a 'second paywall' (which is a little unreasonable to call it that since you wouldn't actually pay for that content twice to begin with) or you just pay

more

in an expansion that has that option included.

Here is the kicker. If it's optional content, it would be unfair to make people pay as part of an expansion who doesn't want that option. Frankly, I think you need to be much more flexible in your thinking if you want to be taken seriously. Content MUST be paid for because it takes Anet time and resources to make it. If that content is offered in a way that people MUST buy it, it's a no go, especially if some people don't want the content. That's when people leave.

We aren't talking about a skin or a convenience item. We're talking about a predatory system now. I can't agree with that and it's not about flexibility, its paying twice for content in the game. There are games that do that and it's a game practice that does somewhat go against Arena net's design phone.

Why I personally think players should do the quests for elite specs is because of my studies into human psychology. Humans, like all animals, take the path of least resistance most frequently. And how this translates into games is players who unintentionally ruin their own experience of a game even if a more unique and fun method of playing is available.

We can actually use GW2 to show this too. Back in the early days of GW2 there was an entire meta build on the idea of stacking in a corner and pulling mobs to the corner to burst the mobs down. This was hyper toxic as well since it limited the use of classes that had strong cleave or heavy aoe and it limited the armor type to only berserkers. There was a more fun method intended by the dev's which involved weaving in and out of combat, a mix of support, control and DPS which in their intention most professions would have been used. But because it was so much slower, riskier, and harder the players took the path of least resistance and chose to stack in a corner.

Is this the fault of the players? Partially, but not entirely. I'd say it's more the fault of our nature and the dev's poor handling of these encounters and map layout. In Fractals the dev's did fix this problem but for the dungeons it still persists as a potential issue but power creep is so high that these encounters don't require such a tactic.

A vocal section of players did not fight against this meta and there was a backlash when stacking was made less effective. There were players who wanted to do it the more challenging way, myself included, but this made us unpopular as conformity to this meta was king. So when it was changed some players left the game but as a whole the game has improved and garnered better retention for breaking this meta.

This is part of the reason I say "players don't usually know what they want". Because its absolutely true. And I don't always recognize that myself so I'm not excluding myself in that. Which is why I'm an advocate for this type of engagement. If done well, and I absolutely believe arena net could do it very well, this could translate to an experience players who would have been against it suddenly being in favor of it because it gives them something they didn't know they were missing.

Sometimes players need to be pushed to engage with the game. You could look at my position as cynical of human nature and I is, somewhat. But like how I needed to be dragged out to a Thai restaurant by my friends and pushed into trying to find out it's one of my favorite types of food, games need that same push sometimes.

[kharmin.7683]

@"Lily.1935" said:

Sometimes players need to be pushed to engage with the game. You could look at my position as cynical of human nature and I is, somewhat. But like how I needed to be dragged out to a Thai restaurant by my friends and pushed into trying to find out it's one of my favorite types of food, games need that same push sometimes.No. I have my own reasons for playing this game and the content provided in the manner that I choose. I don't need your desired changes to "engage" with the game.

Your particular needs and desires do not translate to the entire player base. Anet designed the game with their own vision. If it doesn't meet your needs, then perhaps another game might. Why people continually want to change a game to meet their wants/desires at the cost of detrimental changes to other players is selfish. Play the game as designed or don't.

[ZDragon.3046]

Part of me wants to say yes to your question however elite specs are in some cases 50% if not more of the selling point for a new xpack. As some people do not care about pve story or lore and only pvp or wvw. To force them to do possibly long collection quest to unlock something like that seems unfair.

People have to actually pay money or in some case only pay money for the purposes of having access to the elite specs. To deny them that more by forcing a quest just does not sit right with me.

1: Pay for xpack2: Long quest to unlock new class play style3: Takes multiple days to do quest (possibly)

I always feel like anet giving options for a unique elite ascended weapon was where the quest / lore/ collection should be.

Again is not that im not in totally disagreement with the ideaBut even I as some one who plays both pve and pvp wont be keen on a "Long quest" just to unlock an elite spec. If thats one of the main selling points of the xpack i dont want to spend week unlocking 1 elite. If it takes me an hour or so for a bit of extra lore and insight im fine with that.

[Lexi.1398]

As someone who RPs and writes fiction within GW2's universe...i wouldn't want elite specs to require a "quest chain" to use them. I am very intersted in the combat system and the ability to immediately unlock the elite specs and start theory crafting right after I download the expansion patch is valuable to me, even if i only had to play for an hour i'd be thinking, during that entire hour: I need to rush through so I can unlock the whole thing and get on with the rest of the game. Hand in hand with that, the more content I have to play on a shiny new elite spec, the more I enjoy the game - most of my characters have completed all maps and done most story and i've done most non-gold sink achievemnts in PvE, so whenever the meta changes and i need to practice a new build i don't have a lot of content to do it with- seeing a quest chain having this mentality would just make me sad that i'm not getting as much out of the build as i could be if it instantly unlocked.

I do think the ascended weapon collections could definitely act more like a quest though, gw2 more recently has done wonders to make newer achievements much more engaging than checklists, and i'd be very happy to see deep lore & story elements through that. I think a dramatic change from the spec collections we have had would be too jarring and seem like bad game design, but they could definitely be more than checklists.

Additionally there is visions of the past now, which i think is a cool vessel to provide more story in gw2 without it being related to our main cast. I could easily see like, for example, the first scourges rebelling against joko's forces as a vision instance, or story on the druid spirits in draconic mons relating to the druid spec. Not to mention, fractals can also provide us a story in gw2's universe without it being related to the commanders story too. This is very easy for specs with clear lore basis: a fractal/vision about kalla's uprising for renegade, less so for those not so connected, but i guess the latter isn't really my problem.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:@Lily.1935 My only disagreement with anything in your above post is that I would give the player the CHOICE to unlock an already completed path on an alt ... some people would want to do it again.

The best MMO's I've played give players choices ... and lots of them. Of course, that's more work, so it's up to Anet to decide what choices are value add to a customer and support the game properly. I think one of the places GW2 falls flat is that Anet doesn't create content you can purchase in the Gemstore. Sure, I can buy a chair ... and I guess I can look cool in it ... or I can buy a side story linked to my character that gives me more context to things ... things like espec, mounts, more background into lore history, etc ... there should be nothing holding Anet back from selling us content like this except their resources or imagination.

I'm not a fan of locking content behind a second pay wall when the expansion already is a pay wall.

Maybe ... but there wouldn't be anything unreasonable about doing so. I mean, let me put it this way ... either way, you pay through a 'second paywall' (which is a little unreasonable to call it that since you wouldn't actually pay for that content twice to begin with) or you just pay

more

in an expansion that has that option included.

Here is the kicker. If it's optional content, it would be unfair to make people pay as part of an expansion who doesn't want that option. Frankly, I think you need to be much more flexible in your thinking if you want to be taken seriously. Content MUST be paid for because it takes Anet time and resources to make it. If that content is offered in a way that people MUST buy it, it's a no go, especially if some people don't want the content. That's when people leave.

We aren't talking about a skin or a convenience item. We're talking about a predatory system now. I can't agree with that and it's not about flexibility, its paying twice for content in the game.

But you aren't paying twice because the espec quests under this scheme wouldn't be included in an expansion; they would be optional, purchasable DLC.

Anyways, it clear to me you want more content related to especs and I think it's a good idea ... but for some reason you aren't open to it being optional. That's a no-go from my perspective because regardless of how it's offered, customers WILL be made to pay for the addition of quests to earn an espec. The question isn't ever about IF new content can be offered for various things; Anet can program and offer whatever new content they want. The question is how it's offered within the business model. The bottomline is that any sort of 'espec quests' ARE additional content above what we have traditionally seen for espec releases ... so customers WILL pay for it, regardless if it's offered optionally as DLC or included in an expansion whether people like it or not.