Druid - Proposed Competitive Changes - Defining What Is Wrong With Druid

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Exedore.6320

As outlined in my post, the writing was to define what is wrong with Druid now, and what small & easy tweaks could be used to make it relevant again, without taking risky mechanical overhauls.

Everyone has their own opinion on every matter in this forum. My opinion from the standpoint of a very very long time Druid main, is that we don't need these big changes that people keep proposing & class overhauls. It just needs very simple small buffing, which is incredibly long overdue.

[Kodama.6453]

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:Just hoppin the wall to say imo it would have made more sense if druid and soulbeast switched tradeoffs.

Doesn't make sense for me. Soulbeast losing stats on their pets doesn't have as much of an impact on their intended playstyle, since they are mostly supposed to be supporters. Meanwhile the soulbeast is focused on combat, they are supposed to be melee damage dealers and they gain the stats from their pet, so reducing these stats they gain and actually need in the middle of the enemy doesn't make sense.

Also thematically the trade off for soulbeast is just way more fitting for them. The soulbeast is someone who reached the deepest level of understanding with their pet up to the point that they can become one. Would be weird if you have several pets with that level of understanding, you should focus on one single pet you know in and out.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Swagger.1459"

Eh? These proposed changes are hardly "major"

All of these suggestions are small buffs to CA Kit.

[Swagger.1459]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Swagger.1459"

Eh? These proposed changes are hardly "major"

All of these suggestions are small buffs to CA Kit.

“ Ranger/Druid and everything about it, was designed to be a great 1v1 artist or 1v2 kite or during some metas a 1v2 bunker.”

No. Watch the video and pay attention to what Irenio said.

This game isn’t 1v1 wars. It’s a team based game. And my proposal makes it more of a viable team support.

Irenio...

“Bringing heavy healing to GW2, unlike anything you have seen before. Strong support, very powerful in upcoming raids and WvW. Can sustain a zerg train of 20-30 players in WvW.”

“Upcoming content will have stuff that you can’t just dodge to survive.”

“Berserk meta is going away.”

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Swagger.1459

Eh? These proposed changes are hardly "major"

All of these suggestions are small buffs to CA Kit.

“ Ranger/Druid and everything about it, was designed to be a great 1v1 artist or 1v2 kite or during some metas a 1v2 bunker.”

No. Watch the video and pay attention to what Irenio said.

This game isn’t 1v1 wars. It’s a team based game. And my proposal makes it more of a viable team support.

Irenio...

“Bringing heavy healing to GW2, unlike anything you have seen before. Strong support, very powerful in upcoming raids and WvW. Can sustain a zerg train of 20-30 players in WvW.”

“Upcoming content will have stuff that you can’t just dodge to survive.”

“Berserk meta is going away.”

Feel like there are a few misunderstandings here:

1. My suggested changes are definitely very minor. They are all actually minor buffs to CA Kit skills.
2. My suggested changes are definitely in the way of tweaking the viability of team support, as I stated many many times in the writing.
3. When I say it was designed to be a 1v1 artist, I didn't mean that some guy sat down with the purpose for that happen, as much as that is what happened, and that's just how the class works. As much as you or a designer wanted it to be something else, it isn't. It would take a great deal of redesign to not only Druid, but also Ranger, for that to change, and I don't mean just theoretical on-paper design, I mean functionally. For a Druid to be able to contend as a hard team support next to a FB or Tempest, there is so much that would need to be done that we may as well save it for designing a new expansion class.
4. If a designer wants to reinvent the spec, that's great. I'll state again that: "My suggestions were never intended to go above the heads of Arenanet designers or to state the end all be all of suggestions. This thread was simply to outline why Druid is no longer competitive in its current design, and what types of simple easy light buffs to the CA Kit could make it worth its weight to use again."
5. In all seriousness, most long time Druid mains who have actually played it at competitive levels rather than just dabbling in it, almost all unanimously agree that they do not want any big overhauls. They want the class to feel the same as it always has, mechanically/job role wise, and have it push the numbers it needs to work again.

@Exedore.6320

The report tool is most certainly there for when posts do not fit the narrative of the TOS.

If you look at the post made by @kappa.2036 up there, one of the first responses, he openly disagrees with me and states his own opinion without derailing the topic or tossing insults. I then thumbs up his post and point out how it is a clean model response for debate.

Something to think about in hindsight of it all.

[Swagger.1459]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Swagger.1459

Eh? These proposed changes are hardly "major"

All of these suggestions are small buffs to CA Kit.

“ Ranger/Druid and everything about it, was designed to be a great 1v1 artist or 1v2 kite or during some metas a 1v2 bunker.”

No. Watch the video and pay attention to what Irenio said.

This game isn’t 1v1 wars. It’s a team based game. And my proposal makes it more of a viable team support.

Irenio...

“Bringing heavy healing to GW2, unlike anything you have seen before. Strong support, very powerful in upcoming raids and WvW. Can sustain a zerg train of 20-30 players in WvW.”

“Upcoming content will have stuff that you can’t just dodge to survive.”

“Berserk meta is going away.”

Feel like there are a few misunderstandings here:

1. My suggested changes are definitely very minor. They are all actually minor buffs to CA Kit skills.
2. My suggested changes are definitely in the way of tweaking the viability of team support, as I stated many many times in the writing.
3. When I say it was designed to be a 1v1 artist, I didn't mean that some guy sat down with the purpose for that happen, as much as that is what happened, and that's just how the class works. As much as you or a designer wanted it to be something else, it isn't. It would take a great deal of redesign to not only Druid, but also Ranger, for that to change, and I don't mean just theoretical on-paper design, I mean functionally. For a Druid to be able to contend as a hard team support next to a FB or Tempest, there is so much that would need to be done that we may as well save it for designing a new expansion class.
4. If a designer wants to reinvent the spec, that's great. I'll state again that: "My suggestions were never intended to go above the heads of Arenanet designers or to state the end all be all of suggestions. This thread was simply to outline why Druid is no longer competitive in its current design, and what types of simple easy light buffs to the CA Kit could make it worth its weight to use again."
5. In all seriousness, most long time Druid mains who have actually played it at competitive levels rather than just dabbling in it, almost all unanimously agree that they do not want any big overhauls. They want the class to feel the same as it always has, mechanically/job role wise, and have it push the numbers it needs to work again.

@Exedore.6320

The report tool is most certainly there for when posts do not fit the narrative of the TOS.

If you look at the post made by @kappa.2036 up there, one of the first responses, he openly disagrees with me and states his own opinion without derailing the topic or tossing insults. I then thumbs up his post and point out how it is a clean model response for debate.

Something to think about in hindsight of it all.

I think you’re stuck on the word “major” I used, but let’s cut that random word out of the equation.

Esports FAILED. This game isn’t 1v1. Changes to professions for the entire game shouldn’t be made with the dropped from ESL pvp mode in mind. This game has terrible support roles, support skill designs, support mechanics... And substantial changes need to be made, not just a few number changes. You could double all heal numbers on the kit and it’s still mechanically awful. 1s protection on CA 1? You mean that tiny radius skill that will miss team mates that move? Useless... CA 5 can be a death sentence since it’s a long channel skill that roots the player, but no mention of that fact or resolution. Staff? Nothing for that struggling weapon with poor healing and mostly useless skills?

We need real changes to support roles, not ones that don’t move the bar much at all.

[mistsim.2748]

The slew of nerfs hitting the druid since HoT's release is just bananas.

All I know for sure is that the spec is massively held back by how garbage staff is. Some glyphs and many traits are still nice. CA still has some ok utility.

I have four very simple changes to the staff that would reasonably buff the spec:

1. Revert damage nerf on staff 1, OR add a 1s burn on the third tick.

2. Staff 4's immob cleanse is so dumb on this ability. Please move this functionality to Staff 2. Optional: slightly buff staff 2's damage so it provides a tiny bit of burst for power builds.

3. Make Staff 4 into a condi bomb so that staff can be used on a condi build (like with the Sage amulet). When I think of vines, I see bleeds, poison, and immob...not immob cleanse.

4. Add evasion back on Staff 3. This nerf may have made sense when druids were running defensive amulets for bunkering, and when they had the old healing coefficients. But this is no longer.

That's it. With this, staff would be viable on power, condi, and hybrid builds. As opposed to bringing the entire spec down. Properly buffing staff is the #1 priority for the spec imo.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@mistsim.2748 said:The slew of nerfs hitting the druid since HoT's release is just bananas.

All I know for sure is that the spec is massively held back by how garbage staff is. Some glyphs and many traits are still nice. CA still has some ok utility.

I have four very simple changes to the staff that would reasonably buff the spec:

1. Revert damage nerf on staff 1, OR add a 1s burn on the third tick.

2. Staff 4's immob cleanse is so dumb on this ability. Please move this functionality to Staff 2. Optional: slightly buff staff 2's damage so it provides a tiny bit of burst for power builds.

3. Make Staff 4 into a condi bomb so that staff can be used on a condi build (like with the Sage amulet). When I think of vines, I see bleeds, poison, and immob...not immob cleanse.

4. Add evasion back on Staff 3. This nerf may have made sense when druids were running defensive amulets for bunkering, and when they had the old healing coefficients. But this is no longer.

That's it. With this, staff would be viable on power, condi, and hybrid builds. As opposed to bringing the entire spec down. Properly buffing staff is the #1 priority for the spec imo.

Completely agree with this when stopping to think about it. Staff buffs just may be the #1 priority.

[mistsim.2748]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Completely agree with this when stopping to think about it. Staff buffs just may be the #1 priority.

I really like how they handled MH Axe (mind you it took YEARS). That weapon is an excellent example of a balanced, fun kit. They just need to apply that methodology to the staff.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Staff indeed needs buffs, but the buffs would have to be quite big if it wants to be a good alternative for sword+warhorn. Even before several staff nerfs, sword+warhorn was already the favourable weaponset in most occasions. Ofc if you run a full supportish build then you pick both staff and s+w, so then any staff buff would help. Giving back the evade to staff #3 should be priority, since its the most important skill on the weaponset and the most prominent reason to choose that weapon at all.

[LughLongArm.5460]

@"HeadCrowned.6834" said:Staff indeed needs buffs, but the buffs would have to be quite big if it wants to be a good alternative for sword+warhorn. Even before several staff nerfs, sword+warhorn was already the favourable weaponset in most occasions. Ofc if you run a full supportish build then you pick both staff and s+w, so then any staff buff would help. Giving back the evade to staff #3 should be priority, since its the most important skill on the weaponset and the most prominent reason to choose that weapon at all.

What I think they should do with staff is, change staff (2) to a "Solar wave" skill. This is a medium range skill(~600 range) with medium cone radius that harms foes and heal allies only(maul's like power coefficients, ~3k heal before healing power scaling), and will also "burn" rooted targets(2 burns, 4 sec ). the Skill will have a 8 sec CD but will also cost 50 Astral Force.

The concept is about giving druid an option to delay CA activation for a strong alternative. The balance of this powerful skill made with this trade-off in mind. It is a good option to balance the druid(giving a strong tool that spends CA, so staff druid will not give good pressure while having an "oh shit" button ready to use), it will strengthen the staff concept as a AF builder and spender. It will also strengthen the AF mechanic which at the moment has no real propose beside for the first combat you build it from 0.

Staff (4)- increase the radius by a small amount, make it a pulsing field of 1 sec root. If you rotted a target, refresh the "Solar wave" ability(the new staff 2).

Remove from the skill the condi removal part.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

We get some Druid buffs finally, and here they are:

• Seed of Life: Increased number of conditions cleansed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW.
• Lunar Impact: Increased healing coefficient from 0.72 to 1.0 in PvP and WvW.
• Vine Surge: Increased immobilize duration from 1.5 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Grace of the Land: Increased might stacks from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW.
• Glyph of Rejuvenation (non-celestial): Increased base self-heal from 4,860 to 5,589 in PvP and WvW. Increased base heal for allies from 1,950 to 2,535 in PvP and WvW.
• Glyph of Rejuvenation (celestial avatar): Increased base self-heal from 1,950 to 2,535 in PvP and WvW. Increased base heal for allies from 4,860 to 5,589 in PvP and WvW.

lolololololol

I mean.... yeah

[mistsim.2748]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:We get some Druid buffs finally, and here they are:

• Seed of Life: Increased number of conditions cleansed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW.
• Lunar Impact: Increased healing coefficient from 0.72 to 1.0 in PvP and WvW.
• Vine Surge: Increased immobilize duration from 1.5 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Grace of the Land: Increased might stacks from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW.
• Glyph of Rejuvenation (non-celestial): Increased base self-heal from 4,860 to 5,589 in PvP and WvW. Increased base heal for allies from 1,950 to 2,535 in PvP and WvW.
• Glyph of Rejuvenation (celestial avatar): Increased base self-heal from 1,950 to 2,535 in PvP and WvW. Increased base heal for allies from 4,860 to 5,589 in PvP and WvW.

lolololololol

I mean.... yeah

LI is still weak. My Soulbeast's owl heal does 6-6.5k heals in an aoe + resistance to everything. On its own, it does more than the entirety of the Druid's kit.

Glyphs are in a super rough shape. Literally all of them are not worth slotting. The glyph heal buff is a joke.

Grace of Land is another PvE buff, where we could perma stack 25 might anyways. Lol wtf.

That Vine Surge buff is a tease. Try adding 2 poison and 4 bleed stacks on that, then we'll talk.

[Poledra Val.1490]

This essentially will make Druid halfway towards immortal and once again pvp is driven into long winded bunker meta. Anet wants 15 min full matches and we will now get it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:No offense dude, but try making your point in shorter posts. It would make your message more clear as well as more attractive to read.

I'm pretty sure Arenanet as well as other forum users, are getting tired of seeing & reading half-thought single sentence statement threads with no real pitch, no body for debate, and no explanation behind any intended resolve.

Some things cannot be explained or properly presented for debate in a nutshell statement.

What I've written here is actually a complete statement. I could care less what short attention span forum users think of it, but rather what Arenanet devs think of it, when they sit down and read an actual full pitch with complete explanation.

The way you posted that though, as if this weren't model productive forum feedback, is sort of appalling really.

They won't read it, though. It's not on Reddit.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Poledra Val.1490 said:This essentially will make Druid halfway towards immortal and once again pvp is driven into long winded bunker meta. Anet wants 15 min full matches and we will now get it.

No

[Tanbin.2436]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Poledra Val.1490 said:This essentially will make Druid halfway towards immortal and once again pvp is driven into long winded bunker meta. Anet wants 15 min full matches and we will now get it.

No

he doesn't know about core ranger even though crev is a better far option..

increasing base heals by 15% doesn't make druid suddenly immortal lmao.. the only consistent role druid makes or could make at this point in time is a soft support (because tempest is leaps and bounds better overall) with immob spam. this is it's role, to be as annoying as possible.

IF nade holo gets their remove immobile on holo leap removed then it can actually be quite strong with ancient seeds as a hard counter option.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Just popping in to say that your statement about FB and supporting tomes is outdated at the least. Going into tome 2 is a suicide mid fight - its healing / boons/ cleanses have been nerfed so much , that you simply can't outheal anything while in tome. It's used in niche situations, like when rotating between nodes for that 5 sec swiftness which will be nerfed to 4 sec, or to quickly do tome 5 / waterfield if by some divine miracle you are not the one being focused in a team fight.Tome 3 is the only passable 'support' tome, but it's seeing more and more nerfs so I wouldn't be surprised it will become unusable like tome 2.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

[Shiyo.3578]

Druid needs zero buffs until it loses all access to stealth and entangle is removed from the game entirely.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

That build is bad. It doesn't play above plat 1, and it's terrible in ATs. In WvW, you can make anything work due to pve gear options and food buffs.

The only good Druid builds are the ones with sustain, and they're only good at 1v1 survival situations. They aren't even as good vs. power damage as Core Ranger is. Druids just have bad damage output and can't deal damage while sustaining in the same way Core can. The Druid has to go into these defensive cycles to sustain, which I've already gone over in the OP. Every time the Druid sustain cycles with that 100% defensive cycle, the other player also gets a sustain phase or a disengage phase. This is the main problem with Druid. Druid also sucks with Longbow/Greatsword, therefore it can't decap nodes like a Core Ranger. The only thing a Druid is good at, is 1v1ing in the ffa or in custom servers. It's seriously bad at everything else. You can say it's "annoying" but that doesn't mean it's good. There are large reasons why you don't see any Druid play in ATs or amongst higher ratings. Druid is however, still the best option vs. heavy condi in 1v1. But that's about all it does. It could be used as a niche vs. powerful side node condi metas, say when Condi Mirage is meta, or Fire Weaver, ect ect. But if the side node meta is power based, there is absolutely no reason to run Druid over Core Ranger. The only POSSIBLE application of Druid as a usual measure in conquest, is against a condi side node meta and that's it. It's bad at everything else, including support.

@Shiyo.3578 said:Druid needs zero buffs until it loses all access to stealth and entangle is removed from the game entirely.

Everything has Stealth and Hard/Soft CC lockdown nowadays.

You do realize current Holosmith is pretty much a Soulbeast DPS combined with a Druid sustain, right? That isn't even an embellishment. I dunno how anyone can come in here and make a statement about Druid like this, while there are builds in play right now that greatly outplay the Druid in every catagory, DPS, Sustain, Disengage, Support, CC, everything.

[mistsim.2748]

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

It's a low tier build in spvp. It does very little damage, and it's mostly just known for being "annoying". It can't bunker, it can't side-note, it has less than mediocre teamfight. It's completely ineffectual against the better players in Plat+, but I can see how Gold players and below can be impressed by it. My buddy plays an ele, and this build is his worst nightmare in Gold.

Oops didn't see Trevor wrote the same.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@mistsim.2748 said:

@"ollbirtan.2915" said:.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

It's a low tier build in spvp. It does very little damage, and it's mostly just known for being "annoying". It can't bunker, it can't side-note, it has less than mediocre teamfight. It's completely ineffectual against the better players in Plat+, but I can see how Gold players and below can be impressed by it.

Oops didn't see Trevor wrote the same.

Where do you see me being 'impressed' by the said build? I'm merely pointing out some of the fallacies and biases that from OP's original post.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

It's a low tier build in spvp. It does very little damage, and it's mostly just known for being "annoying". It can't bunker, it can't side-note, it has less than mediocre teamfight. It's completely ineffectual against the better players in Plat+, but I can see how Gold players and below can be impressed by it.

Oops didn't see Trevor wrote the same.

Where do you see me being 'impressed' by the said build? I'm merely pointing out some of the fallacies and biases that from OP's original post.

Yeah

I guess the top 100 on both NA and EU and all the MAT teams must be biased.

Because for some reason, despite how impressively strong the Druid is, none of them are using it.

[Tanbin.2436]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

It's a low tier build in spvp. It does very little damage, and it's mostly just known for being "annoying". It can't bunker, it can't side-note, it has less than mediocre teamfight. It's completely ineffectual against the better players in Plat+, but I can see how Gold players and below can be impressed by it.

Oops didn't see Trevor wrote the same.

Where do you see me being 'impressed' by the said build? I'm merely pointing out some of the fallacies and biases that from OP's original post.

Yeah

I guess the top 100 on both NA and EU and all the MAT teams must be biased.

Because for some reason, despite how impressively strong the Druid is, none of them are using it.

Ah yes, ive seen this with soulbeast as well... godlike dps, godlike defenses, insanely busted and can move to each side of the map blazingly fast, godlike roamer / +1'er.

but everyone runs nade holo / crev. top tier players and meta users must be stupid!!

MASSIVE SHRUG

[mistsim.2748]

@"iKagura.1903" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:.As for druid, currently it has lots of self sustain and disengage, and don't even get me started on that kitten perma immob trapper build which sees plays not only in wvw but in spvp too.

It's a low tier build in spvp. It does very little damage, and it's mostly just known for being "annoying". It can't bunker, it can't side-note, it has less than mediocre teamfight. It's completely ineffectual against the better players in Plat+, but I can see how Gold players and below can be impressed by it.

Oops didn't see Trevor wrote the same.

Where do you see me being 'impressed' by the said build? I'm merely pointing out some of the fallacies and biases that from OP's original post.

Yeah

I guess the top 100 on both NA and EU and all the MAT teams must be biased.

Because for some reason, despite how impressively strong the Druid is, none of them are using it.

Ah yes, ive seen this with soulbeast as well... godlike dps, godlike defenses, insanely busted and can move to each side of the map blazingly fast, godlike roamer / +1'er.

but everyone runs nade holo / crev. top tier players and meta users must be stupid!!

MASSIVE SHRUG

But there are top players running Soulbeast and Core.