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Icebrood and Jormag


Hypnowulf.7403

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Personally, I've always just assumed that the "protected him while he slept" just means that she was around for more than one Dragonrise. This doesn't mean that she's been around since the very first cycle, though.The order of dialogue in the novel suggests to me that she was defending Kralkatorrik in his sleep when she came to sympathize with mortals.

A large part of your argument is based on the assertion that Kralkatorrik's original motive 1) can't simply be power for its own sake (a common enough motivation in the Guild Wars world) and 2) must be something that's relevant to the present day, as opposed to some motivation that was relevant to sane Kralkatorrik back before he participated in his first cycle but which is now lost to the mists of time.

Call them assumptions, call them holes in the logic... we don't have solid evidence of either of those. Possible? Yes. The only possible interpretation? Not at all.I wouldn't call them either, really. The first one and the theory itself are by nature mutually exclusive - if his motivation was his vision, then it couldn't be power for its own sake, which is something that we have no evidence to suggest is there. I would argue that suggesting Kralkatorrik's original motive was "power for its own sake" itself is an assumption / theory, one which has as little if not less foundation than the notion of the vision being the original motive.

For the second point, the vision is only relevant to the present day because ANet's narrative wanted to give us some extra motivation for our characters and, more specifically, for Kralkatorrik. The vision was literally placed to be Kralkatorrik's motivation. However, we know from both before and after the revelation of the vision that Kralkatorrik's modern motivation is just "consume and destroy [to end the pain]" and not the vision.

Utilizing the rules of Checkov's Gun, that vision should have a purpose - but if it isn't Kralkatorrik's pre-Torment motivation, then what purpose did it have in the story? None. Kralkatorrik denies Glint's conclusion, that he feared his vision, so what purpose does the vision have?

Unless we label the vision as poor amateur writing, then it has to have some purpose to the narrative. It didn't really serve any purpose for the PC and friend's motivation, since it literally did nothing to improve our standing besides a pep talk, so what other purpose can it have, besides being Kralkatorrik's original motivation that led him to being exposed to torment and causing the modern situation?

Personally, I'd rather not chalk anything up to "it's just poor writing" because that's bland and boring for theorycrafting.

This, honestly, feels like a change of heart to me, which the devs explicitly said he didn't have. He hated the idea of the vision, but accepted it when he realised it would make his granddaughter stronger (or at least saner) than he was? That sounds like a change of heart to me.

Furthermore, while Sane Kralkatorrik doesn't talk directly to the PC much, when he does, he does so with respect. Sure, that could be specifically because of the link with Aurene, or maybe he has a "be polite even to people you hate" attitude, but... well, we could go over each line with a fine-toothed comb and explain it away, but the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing. There's no undertone of "I hate this but I love my granddaughter more".

Ultimately, there's going to need to be a lot more evidence in favour of your hypothesis before I'd even be willing to consider it balance-of-probabilities more likely than alternative hypotheses, let alone something that can be stated as fact.I'm not saying he accepted the vision at any point though. The only thing he accepted, was that by bonding with mortals, Aurene became something he couldn't have because he would never accept or bond with mortals, thus was "her own kind".

He didn't accept the vision - he accepted an end to his pain. These are two very different things.

Besides, if Kralkatorrik didn't hate the vision, why would Glint think he feared it, when he didn't fear it?

the overall feel of the instance is that Sane Kralkatorrik genuinely and wholeheartedly approves of what Aurene is doing.I would disagree. It felt more like his love for his family, and his desire to end the pain, and the closeness to death, overcame his hatred.

Can you really say that your hypothesis is the only possible interpretation?Did I ever give the impression that I did?

I NEVER think my theories are the only possible interpretation.

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Re Jormag's speech in the trailer: It strikes me that it can easily be something that comes later in the story and not as the prelude to the whole thing like it's being treated. Presumably because Bangar's plans have fallen apart and his world is collapsing around him... which tends to happen when you try to kill the Commander... and Jormag has come to offer him an out.

Assuming Anet even reuses that speech in-game. It could just have been only for the trailer.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:Re Jormag's speech in the trailer: It strikes me that it can easily be something that comes later in the story and not as the prelude to the whole thing like it's being treated. Presumably because Bangar's plans have fallen apart and his world is collapsing around him... which tends to happen when you try to kill the Commander... and Jormag has come to offer him an out.

Assuming Anet even reuses that speech in-game. It could just have been only for the trailer.

This actually sounds like a good idea to me.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Utilizing the rules of Checkov's Gun, that vision should have a purpose - but if it isn't Kralkatorrik's pre-Torment motivation, then what purpose did it have in the story? None. Kralkatorrik denies Glint's conclusion, that he feared his vision, so what purpose does the vision have?

Unless we label the vision as poor amateur writing, then it has to have some purpose to the narrative. It didn't really serve any purpose for the PC and friend's motivation, since it literally did nothing to improve our standing besides a pep talk, so what other purpose can it have, besides being Kralkatorrik's original motivation that led him to being exposed to torment and causing the modern situation?

Personally, I'd rather not chalk anything up to "it's just poor writing" because that's bland and boring for theorycrafting.

The number of dangling references in this story would give Checkov a fit. Checov's rule won't help us here. Imo, the writers would reject Checkov's rule and replace with it with a rule that the supply of dangling references shouldn't fall below a certain number. It would be a better rule for a serial fantasy drama where the writers aren't in control. I also think you are applying too stringent a rule for power acquisition. The real world and Tyria teems with examples of beings who gather power to themselves so that they can spend power on anything they want or just be powerful. Elder dragon's have always been the embodiment of the instinct to gather power.

Perhaps we need to embrace the concept of there genuinely being two Kralkatorriks. The Tormented Kralk is the part of their mind possessed by magic and would grow in strength over time. Glint's vision describes their death or lose of power. It would be Tormented Kralk who fights the vision and not the vision that causes Tormented Kralk to emerge. At the most, the vision would have accelerated Tormented Kralk's growth as it gathered power. The non-Tormented Kralk, certainly not sane Kralk, could always have been present or the vision's effect on Tormented Kralk forced it to emerge or condense. This Kralk would not fear death or Glint's vision. It would want an end to the dragon cycle and see Aurene as worth protecting because she makes its end possible. She is new, she is not of the pain of the dragon cycle, and she is a brilliant reflection of the dull mote of good (or not evil) that persists within Kralk's divided mind. Their kinship is a bonus but not essential.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:Re Jormag's speech in the trailer: It strikes me that it can easily be something that comes later in the story and not as the prelude to the whole thing like it's being treated. Presumably because Bangar's plans have fallen apart and his world is collapsing around him... which tends to happen when you try to kill the Commander... and Jormag has come to offer him an out.

Assuming Anet even reuses that speech in-game. It could just have been only for the trailer.

Wow, that works well. In the speech, Jormag is trying to seduce the listener to give up the struggle against death, the end of unique experience. The fear of death causes the enslaved human to adapt to the whip, the Charr and Norn to chase conflict or legend that makes a name immortal. Jormag wants everyone to stop worrying about preserving their uniqueness and become part of Jormag's sphere. That message doesn't resonate with Bangar's love of, and faith in, all things Charr. If Bangar fails, then they would be more vulnerable to Jormag's logic.

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