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Guardian as a whole compared to the rest.


Arken.3725

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Let's try to stay on topic that this discussion only revolves around spvp. I feel like we're missing the point of this thread which is to discuss the current mechanics guardian has and how they're weak/unfun.

We're not talking about targets that stand-still nor ones that don't use positioning. These are all things guardian has an issue dealing with (lack of mobility/debilitating conditions).

There's a laundry-list of stuff that I haven't even convered that when you really think about it, as a whole, guardian feels tacked on. Here are some examples:

  • adding chill to hammer long ago to give guardians something in terms of sticking to an opponent.
  • the addition of the 25 percent movement on dh which is so underwhelming that no one I know even considers using it.
  • old righteous instincts to help guardian deal with their low-health which was nerfed into obscurity.

The list goes on and on. I'm trying to inform people here and maybe even some developers to take a closer look at guardian. I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it, if it is necessary for the betterment of this game to nerf guardian, so be it.

However, I know and can find a plethora of problems/underwhelming mechanics for me to prove otherwise.

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Using PvE damage as comparative to either of the competitive game modes is just flawed(particularly when the whole discussion at its start was stated to be that it was focused on Solo Que PvP only). In PvE you fighting against either a static foe or a scripted one often with very predictable patterns where as in competitive it is a individual that while sometimes they can be predictable often they aren't. On the WvW side the main reason for the high representation of Guardian(mainly FB's) the high output of group Stability, Quickness, and the situational Retaliation(for AOE happy foes), I'm not saying we are worthless on damage per say but we do get out done by quite a few other classes , on the PvP side I have question that opinion somewhat (with regard to our level of representation on the different tiers) in that many(but not all)of the same classes that were over representing in all of the Mid levels and Top levels before the previous patch are still there after the patch which tends to point the fact that the patch didn't shake things up as much as it should hav and that it's application of damping of damage etc was rather uneven at best to put it mildly.

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@"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:Using PvE damage as comparative to either of the competitive game modes is just flawed(particularly when the whole discussion at its start was stated to be that it was focused on Solo Que PvP only). In PvE you fighting against either a static foe or a scripted one often with very predictable patterns where as in competitive it is a individual that while sometimes they can be predictable often they aren't. On the WvW side the main reason for the high representation of Guardian(mainly FB's) the high output of group Stability, Quickness, and the situational Retaliation(for AOE happy foes), I'm not saying we are worthless on damage per say but we do get out done by quite a few other classes , on the PvP side I have question that opinion somewhat (with regard to our level of representation on the different tiers) in that many(but not all)of the same classes that were over representing in all of the Mid levels and Top levels before the previous patch are still there after the patch which tends to point the fact that the patch didn't shake things up as much as it should hav and that it's application of damping of damage etc was rather uneven at best to put it mildly.

So, how does this address the issue of Burn Firebrand, burn core guardian or burn Dragonhunter in WvW?

Or how Firebrand was completely busted last pvp season on both symbol build and burn build in pvp and is still a very strong spec (even after the nerfs)?

Last months NA MAT (this is AFTER the nerfs in Feb 21st and March 5th):

Firebrand in literally EVERY team. Am I missing a joke or something here?

Don't get me wrong, I love my guardians, play one of them as one of my main WvW classes, but if you are currently trying to make arguments as to why guardian or one of its elites is under-performing, you are fighting a serious uphill battle. No reason to even look to PvE for that.

@"Arken.3725" said:The list goes on and on. I'm trying to inform people here and maybe even some developers to take a closer look at guardian. I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it, if it is necessary for the betterment of this game to nerf guardian, so be it.

Given guardians over representation in almost all game modes, chances are very high the developers will take a look at them more in the future (even more likely IF a third specialization should come around as to keep power creep in check). I just doubt guardian is currently up for buffs of any kind in any game mode.

EDIT:and almost as to prove my point, the 1 recent poll in the WvW forums:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102452/vote-your-favourite-all-round-wvw-class-that-can-do-both-zerg-roaming#latestTake a guess which class leads the pack by a mile? Guardian. Which, while not representative, could show that quite a few players would consider guardian in a pretty good spot for that competitive game mode overall.

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Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

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@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

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By all means feel free to argue on the merits of PvE balance but I would suggest that you do it in thread that is what they are talking about instead a thread that wasn't discussing PvE at all. And I have the utmost respect for the "Organized Tourney Teams" and I'm sure many of them do stand in the Top Tiers of regular Solo Que PvP but I would say that their expectations of organized team work from their team mates in a Solo Que PvP match versus their expectations of their team mates in Organized Tourney is totally different which would also tend to change their method of game play between the two types of matches, ergo different choices on traits and skills between the two in the one where there is solid coordination between the players because of familiarity where each player can depend on the other player to assist in such a way as to complement each other and cover each others weaknesses which would allow for greater risks in their choice on the build but could lead to higher rewards where as in the Solo Que it's more like a PUG where you would tend to be more cautious on your build choices etc because you would no longer be able expect even remotely the same level of support .

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@otto.5684 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:By all means feel free to argue on the merits of PvE balance but I would suggest that you do it in thread that is what they are talking about instead a thread that wasn't discussing PvE at all. And I have the utmost respect for the "Organized Tourney Teams" and I'm sure many of them do stand in the Top Tiers of regular Solo Que PvP but I would say that their expectations of organized team work from their team mates in a Solo Que PvP match versus their expectations of their team mates in Organized Tourney is totally different which would also tend to change their method of game play between the two types of matches, ergo different choices on traits and skills between the two in the one where there is solid coordination between the players because of familiarity where each player can depend on the other player to assist in such a way as to complement each other and cover each others weaknesses which would allow for greater risks in their choice on the build but could lead to higher rewards where as in the Solo Que it's more like a PUG where you would tend to be more cautious on your build choices etc because you would no longer be able expect even remotely the same level of support .

Stop pretending Firebrand is not just as strong in regular pvp. Symbol Firebrand remains a very strong pick for regular pvp play, even AFTER it got nerfed.

Some guardian only players are in for a rude awakening once balance actually catches up to the class.

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@Drennon.7190 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally fucked sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate. Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

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This discussion was to look-over individual mechanics found on Guardian as a comparison to the rest. Hell, I can tell you exactly why FB is still in a decent spot and the main reason is still.......Symbols. This mechanic alone works wonders when the size of a point is the same size as your AoE. They keep toning them down but I feel like a mechanic needs an overhaul. I feel like we're on the cusp of seeing FB being pushed out relatively soon.

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I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

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When you talk about how strong burning is don't forget, what's the most important aspect that allows strong condi-specs to work? Variation. Guardians have ZERO condition variation. We have no ways to bury that burning. You can't just nerf that, it wouldn't make sense.

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@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-Sustain: When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play. Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-Damage-output: When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful. One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-Mobility: This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Arken.3725 said:This is obviously from an Spvp stand-point so we could just knock that out of the way right now. I wanted to go over Guardian as a whole and how it operates for both damage-output, sustain, mobility, cc access, ect and compare it to the rest of the cast. I've been wanting to do this for a while since I believe most if not all aspects of Guardian play revolves around actually thinking. What do I mean by this? Take a look.

-
Sustain:
When we talk about sustain for Guardian, we're looking at what keeps it alive, right? How does Guardian do this overall? It's heavily reliance on Aegis being the primary offender here. This forces a player into the Honor trait-line, even though it was nerfed, heavily. Never has there been so much emphasis on active play when comparing Aegis to anything else to sustain itself. While I love this, it's been VERY difficult to keep oneself alive with such play.
Strong passives don't seem to exist here, even less-so with the significant nerfs as of late.

-
Damage-output:
When we look at damage-output, we not only have to look at how much damage is applied but also how it's applied. Guardians have notoriously had it difficult(from launch) at applying damage. Look at the tracking on every ranged weapon it has, look at how difficult it is to keep an enemy inside its main damage-source(symbols). Even if you look past at how difficult it is to apply said damage, the actual potential damage applied is even more pitiful.
One would think that if something is difficult to, the action itself would be significant. Not the case here.

-
Mobility:
This one is rather simple. Anyone and their mothers could see Guardians mobility is and has been less than average. As a primarily melee-profession, one would think that decent speed would be applied but here, it is not. One aspect you could also take into account is the ability to stick on an opponent which would require solid speed or copious amounts of debilitating conditions which again, guardian does not have.

With all of this being said, It would be nice to get some insight from a developer as to why Guardian is designed this way. I can't understand it with nearly 9k hours played on it. Outside of all of this, I haven't even gone into the traits and skills but that's for another time.

Careful what you wish for, Guardian right now is strong across the game

What I want is a look at and removal/overhaul of certain strong mechcanics(symbols for instance) and in place something interesting/fun that's not as strong.

Edit: In fact, tell me what you think is strong on Guardian strictly from an spvp standpoint. What are its most powerful mechanics that keep it relevant?

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@Arken.3725 said:This discussion was to look-over individual mechanics found on Guardian as a comparison to the rest. Hell, I can tell you exactly why FB is still in a decent spot and the main reason is still.......Symbols. This mechanic alone works wonders when the size of a point is the same size as your AoE. They keep toning them down but I feel like a mechanic needs an overhaul. I feel like we're on the cusp of seeing FB being pushed out relatively soon.

I disagree with this somewhat. Theoretically, if symbols are what is so powerful, then they should work best for power builds. But that is not the case. IMO is making symbols proc justice faster is what makes FB effective. You add that with the heal from honor on symbols, this is where FB really excels. The power damage for symbols for FB is negligible. If we remove from Symbolic Power, Justice passive effect twice as fast, symbol FB will probably not be viable. And I think this should be the route taken, in favor of putting condi damage somewhere else. In fact, I think the entire trait should be removed (30% more damage to symbols) in favor of redistributing the damage to weapons.

And ya, if this gets hammered out without any compensation, no guardian build will be viable.

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@Arken.3725 said:Not against that entirely @otto.5684 just when symbols are so ingrained into your weaponry you're once again forced to utilize it the most.

Edit: Indirectly you're seeing yourself how strong symbols can be with the one trait you listed.

Ya, but I prefer GS symbol concept. Short duration and high damage. It works better for guardian and for overall balance. This should be the direction taken, not compounding million things on a concept that does not work well in PvP so you brute force it to work.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a major overhaul for their condition builds.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Arken.3725 said:Not against that entirely @otto.5684 just when symbols are so ingrained into your weaponry you're once again forced to utilize it the most.

Edit: Indirectly you're seeing yourself how strong symbols can be with the one trait you listed.

Ya, but I prefer GS symbol concept. Short duration and high damage. It works better for guardian and for overall balance. This should be the direction taken, not compounding million things on a concept that does not work well in PvP so you brute force it to work.

See I find the GS symbol to be the worst of them all. It can do significant damage but it's too easily avoidable since you have nothing to keep your enemy in it. If you ask me, I like the marks concept, those skills are ALL front-loaded.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a
major
overhaul for their condition builds.

I've already started to see engines running around with flame throwers literally just spamming it lol. Burnings definitely gonna be nerfed dps wise just matter of time. Burning using flame throwing is not infrequent access nor aplication and neither is guards access to it. Burning should be a effective dot if not cleared but as it is now the single tics shouldn't rival power bursts lol.

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@otto.5684 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

PvE, ya, sure. Guardian does have a bit of diversity and has at least two meta builds. sPvP diversity? Zero. You are stuck with symbol FB. Nothing else is remotely competitive. I dont like to talk about blob PvP. Blob is blob, balance in it is blob and talking about it makes me blob. So.. can we stop blobbing?

and how many classes have more than 1 competitive build available at the top end?

Is not this specifically the issue of this thread is about? It is a question of how many S-B tier builds that guardian has in sPvP. And It is only 1. That was not the case before the patch. Symbol FB was S tier (A tier now). Sage FB was A tier (C tier now). DH media trapper was B+ tier (C tier now). Does guardian have it the worst? No. Mesmer has no A tier builds. Neither does ranger. But as a guardian player, there is only 1 thing I was looking for: more viable and/or competitive guardian builds in sPvP. And clearly, that did not happen, cuz the new CMC guys is clueless, and royally kitten sPvP. Cuz instead of fixing the issues with sPvP he decided to do a hard reset, setting the game back to beta. And he clearly lacks the competence and the vision to get it even back to 1 competitive build per class.

That's your opinion which is, according to the same CMC guy you are dissing, not reflected in the games stats. DH sees a very high win rate in sub P2.

As a guardian player, the fact you have 2-3 builds in S-A tier, while other classes have none at all, should already tell you where your classes is currently situated balance wise.

@otto.5684 said:

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.

Yes, Guardian is not represented in ALL game content with EVERY elite. No class is.

Guardian is meta in pretty much every game mode AND has strong builds in its core spec or other elite. Core guardian works very well as burn guard. It works in part even better

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.

Guardian is the LEAST pigeon holded class in this game by far atm with viable and working builds for EVERY game mode in multiple elite or core variants. The only exception being when in high demand as support build, which many classes can not even provide, and definitely not in such a strength that FB does.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

So, one can't argue with PvE balance, neither with WvW balance, nor with top tier pvp balance? Aren't you rather picky as far which arguments are allowed?

I'd say all of those paint a rather clear picture of a VERY strong class at the moment. Which is also reflected in the build variety currently available in game.

Just because burn guard and DH work in meme tier PvP, doesn’t mean it’s good.

Meme tier aka dev said highest win rate or one of in plat. Not saying they need nerfed but the condition burning definitely needs toned down in general which would indirectly nerf guard builds and and all other burn builds across the classes but needs to be done. Right now burning can tic as much as a burst skill which is not ok.

As you said, it is meme tier. Win rates is a very poor measure, as CMC even hinted at. From another MMO, the devs right out said there is an inverse relationship between overall win rates and effectiveness of a build. Who do you think plays DH now? Flavor of the month rollers, or dedicated veterans who love DH? If you do a scatter shot approach of performance, best indicator typically is volume of people who play a specific build. Not very accurate either, but much better than looking purely at win rate.

You are assuming that all the devs look at is win rate. That is a very poor assumption to make.

Also while win rate is a poor measure, it's better than subjective opinion.

@otto.5684 said:Other approaches need data we players have no access to, so it is only conjecture. Primarily, you need to look at winning compositions in above 1,500 games and in AT, then look the frequency of occurrence of a specific build. Theoretically, if you see mirage popping in many winning compositions (it surely is not), then you know it is the problem. You combine that with its presentation in top 250, top 50 and all across sPvP, that probably is the strongest indicator of performance.

Yes, and guardian is represented there since a very long time now. Unlike at least 4 other classes. You can obviously complain about not having MULTIPLE builds available at that level, but that is a luxury most other classes don't even come close to.

Also again, let's remember that this is AFTER recent balance patches aimed at reducing guardian, and specifically Firebrand, effectiveness. There is absolutely no reason to believe ANY buffs are in line for guardian at the moment.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I can guarantee people have bandaged to dh/guards due to their access to burn condition and how overperforming it is, I mean it's no secret. Burning needs hammered, if that means guards as a whole needs some love for them to be viable without the dependance on a broken condition than by all means. By the sounds of the complaints in thos thread the need love as do a lot of classes to allow more build deversity. Don't mistake what I said as a nerf dh post as I'm talking about nerfing the burning condition damage across all classes, just as it stands guards and its elites in combination with symbols and traps are utilizing this overperforming condition the most. Burn weavers etc will also be effected but if everyone playing guards are honest with themselves they'd kno there's no way anet is going to leave the tic damage on burning how it currently is.

I would hate this since this would make condition engineer way less viable. Burning was always designed as a high damage tick condition, hence why it's application is usually less frequent for most classes than the lower tick condis like bleed.

If they really reduce the burning tick damage, then engineer would need a
major
overhaul for their condition builds.

I've already started to see engines running around with flame throwers literally just spamming it lol. Burnings definitely gonna be nerfed dps wise just matter of time. Burning using flame throwing is not infrequent access nor aplication and neither is guards access to it. Burning should be a effective dot if not cleared but as it is now the single tics shouldn't rival power bursts lol.

Spamming flamethrower 1 gives you 4 seconds of burning with a channel time of 2 1/4 seconds, dude. You won't get a huge amount of burning stacks from that.

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