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Balance Patch Preview - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

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so i decided to take a break after playing raid in Final Fantasy 14 online into wvw. Once i entered, i joined a party who decided to take Durios. After taking Durios, a large enemy servers arrived and decided to retrieve it. It didn't take long for the Toxic Pullings Fiesta Gimmicks to begin. 1 by 1, we were hurled down from the walls by 1 Thief player. It didn't take long for myself to be lunged down-forward into instant death.

As i layed on the ground with the party dead players, it all came back to me, 'why did i even bother to log into the game to take a break?'

WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING A BREAK WHEN TOXIC GIMMICKS IS THE HOSTESS OF WVW?

i immediately logged out and logged in to Guild Wars 1

NOW THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD'VE LONGED IN, TO BEGIN WITH

Once again, I Praise Guild Wars 1 for not putting up with Toxic Gimmicks

-that is all and i continue to wish Guild Wars a healthy prosperous future-

A Future Where Players Experience Matters, PERIOD!!

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@TwoGhosts.6790 said:

Future Balance Cadence

This patch is unusual in that it’s more about establishing a new paradigm than it is a regular balance update, and the result is a giant set of changes. Moving forward with competitive balance, we want to make smaller adjustments more often. The specific cadence for balance will always depend on our overall release schedule, but ideally it will be closer to every 4-6 weeks, while still having the opportunity to make minor tweaks outside of the regular balance update. The goal here is to have better flexibility to fix problems in a timely manner.

It's now 7 weeks since the balance patch.Generally, I think it has brought a better gameplay, but where are the tweaks?There are clearly some problems to fix... how's that coming along?

There is a table, it is more than likely on it. A long with other things so who knows how its going because the table hungers, it thirsts... and dreams are on the menu.

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@Burnfall.9573 said:so i decided to take a break after playing raid in Final Fantasy 14 online into wvw. Once i entered, i joined a party who decided to take Durios. After taking Durios, a large enemy servers arrived and decided to retrieve it. It didn't take long for the Toxic Pullings Fiesta Gimmicks to begin. 1 by 1, we were hurled down from the walls by 1 Thief player. It didn't take long for myself to be lunged down-forward into instant death.

As i layed on the ground with the party dead players, it all came back to me, 'why did i even bother to log into the game to take a break?'

WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING A BREAK WHEN TOXIC GIMMICKS IS THE HOSTESS OF WVW?

i immediately logged out and logged in to Guild Wars 1

NOW THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD'VE LONGED IN, TO BEGIN WITH

Once again, I Praise Guild Wars 1 for not putting up with Toxic Gimmicks

-that is all and i continue to wish Guild Wars a healthy prosperous future-

A Future Where Players Experience Matters, PERIOD!!Yeah that OP thief pull.

Everyone has it now, especially in zergs where you are getting pulled and CCd with skills spinning their cd for 10+ seconds straight.

Its weird that you never actually see them, but they are thieves I guess.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@XenesisII.1540 said:They can't do anything, because one side says there's too much condi and corruption, other side says there's too much sustain, other side says too much cc.

Well to be fair they did nerf CC by quite alot by removing its damage (good change imo). They also nerfed sustain but not nearly enough (still a step in the right direction is still a step). The only real shortfall was that condi builds damage output was basically untouched. Given that sustain still needs to take some hits, and condi builds benefit from sustain due to only needing to build 2 damage stats means that the biggest issue with balance at the moment is condi builds are crazy strong.

So if we're being honest all they really need to do to take another healthy step is tone down sustain a tad more and nerf condi damage. I wouldn't say nerf it to the same degree power was nerfed, because power was just crazy pre patch. But at least nerf it so that it relies on damage over time rather than burst. You shouldn't be able to burst by building one offensive stat alone. Condi builds like mesmer, necro, rev etc can simply output too much damage whilst being quite tanky.

So what do they do?TL;DR versionNerf condi damage, nerf sustain.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:They can't do anything, because one side says there's too much condi and corruption, other side says there's too much sustain, other side says too much cc.

Well to be fair they did nerf CC by quite alot by removing its damage (good change imo). They also nerfed sustain but not nearly enough (still a step in the right direction is still a step). The only real shortfall was that condi builds damage output was basically untouched. Given that sustain still needs to take some hits, and condi builds benefit from sustain due to only needing to build 2 damage stats means that the biggest issue with balance at the moment is condi builds are crazy strong.

So if we're being honest all they really need to do to take another healthy step is tone down sustain a tad more and nerf condi damage. I wouldn't say nerf it to the same degree power was nerfed, because power was just crazy pre patch. But at least nerf it so that it relies on damage over time rather than burst. You shouldn't be able to burst by building one offensive stat alone. Condi builds like mesmer, necro, rev etc can simply output too much damage whilst being quite tanky.

So what do they do?TL;DR versionNerf condi damage, nerf sustain.

Meta is still power. In blob vs blob, powerspikes still win. Condies get cleansed fast, they have no time to actually get that high to inflict much damage. Thats why expertise is a wasted stat in blob vs blob. On smallscale/solo, things differ. I see havoc groups rather than solo roamers, pockethealers on every group. Burst condi isnt an issue anymore with most classes cause if you use one certain sigil and one cleanse, most damage is mitigated and the enemy will not be able to reapply condies fast enough. Like against powerbuilds, one should know when to cleanse and when to facetank stuff. You dont perma dodge against every power attack, much like you dont cleanse EACH condi as soon as it is applied. Condies are less of an issue, powerbuilds still hit hard and thats why people prefer them. At least, personally, I see fewer condi builds on roamers.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:They can't do anything, because one side says there's too much condi and corruption, other side says there's too much sustain, other side says too much cc.

Well to be fair they did nerf CC by quite alot by removing its damage (good change imo). They also nerfed sustain but not nearly enough (still a step in the right direction is still a step). The only real shortfall was that condi builds damage output was basically untouched. Given that sustain still needs to take some hits, and condi builds benefit from sustain due to only needing to build 2 damage stats means that the biggest issue with balance at the moment is condi builds are crazy strong.

So if we're being honest all they really need to do to take another healthy step is tone down sustain a tad more and nerf condi damage. I wouldn't say nerf it to the same degree power was nerfed, because power was just crazy pre patch. But at least nerf it so that it relies on damage over time rather than burst. You shouldn't be able to burst by building one offensive stat alone. Condi builds like mesmer, necro, rev etc can simply output too much damage whilst being quite tanky.

So what do they do?TL;DR versionNerf condi damage, nerf sustain.

And yet the size of groups comes into play also. Condi's mostly affect roam or small group, the big ones cleanse everything easily, especially the boon balling groups. You make them useless for a class like scourge and no one will want to run them anymore (hell I see a lot less of them these days anyways), that might be a good thing for you, but it's terrible in the end for making it even easier for boon balling.

Even if cc's got their damage nerfed, there's still a lot of it being used, especially immobilize.

Boons should have taken a nerf, we've been saying that for years now.

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@Voltekka.2375 @XenesisII.1540

I should have clarified that I'm really only talking about the small scale/roaming scene. My knowledge on blob composition usually only comes from observation underneath a giant pile of what I assume was accidentally misplaced siege.

That being said I would still make the case that the meta for the best builds at the moment lies in the condi's for roaming/smallscale. Power is still great, and some people can be slow to change. Also condi has always had a stigma attatched to it. Because of this people will still probably prefer power for the moment. Despite my belief that a variation of condi rev is probably the king pin 1v1 build presently, thats subjective on my part though, I haven't played enough to claim this definitively. BUT condi rev has absolutely nothing on how powerful boon duration power holo was pre patch. So the game is still in a better place imo. Pre patch if you were running power holo with tools/alch and some boon duration thrown in, you had no business losing a 1v1 to anything other than other holo's.

But I'd agree that condi doesn't make sense in a blob. Sustain/supports are still too strong. That remains true even in the roaming scene. If you come across a group running a pocket healer and your group isn't you may as well pack it in right there.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:hey ANET,

WHERE was the Nerf for Thieves?

You wanted to make fights longer? WHY are they still hitting with 12k vault followed by 9k vault?

WHEN are you finally fix this plague?

Oh btw, 9k Coalesence of ruin? Very balanced indeed.

i nearly reported you for this comment. rev got 3 major damage nerfs, a sometimes insanely bad/random hit-window for coal and you still crybaby about coal...? the biggest dps in the zergs is still scrouges usually.

but yeah, thief and condimesmserstuff as well as rangers, basically the most usless classes for Wvw, somehow barely got hurting nerfs, surely kinda sad and a questionable decision.

also again, we lack on stability in the current meta. the cc-spam is horrific, nobdy cares that cc's don't do dmg, since you get loaded up with 50 condis while u get ping-ponged from boomstrip to daze to launch and get extra-cooldown by some of those, so u won't cleanse ever again once the loop is running. that combined with the not great ping often (skill-lag) is pretty messed up.

and i agree... feels Wvw gets nerfs as if it was spvp. i mean it's absurd to even compare these two.

///then we have here a ranger talking about 1v1's in Wvw. i still kill rangers with my zergset frequently :P

i feel that sustain is rather weak. the longer battles get, the more lag is often involved, and the more show the cooldowns of sustain. anybody asking to further nerf sustain should just pack his bags and travel back to spvp.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96747/balance-patch-preview-global

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

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@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

I still maintain they should implement diminishing returns on CC, and therefore CC spam becomes less effective while also not requiring players to spam stability in order to play. Been playing more on my Herald of late, and while before the patch I mainly camped Glint and swapped to Jalis when under pressure or to support a push, now it's the opposite - in squad I'm mainly camping Jalis to spam roads, and am only swapping back to glint for CC or to proc Spirit Boon.

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@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

(Just trying time understand what you mean)Are you saying that one person could only apply a CC every 1-2 seconds?

Or that it only impacts a player after a cool down of 1-2 seconds?

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Some kind of diminishing returns should be implemented. Can be anything such as

  1. You are immune to the same type of CC for 3 sec regardless of who is applying it to you. Eg 2 stuns in a row...you will only be affected by the first stun if the second is applied within 3 sec,

or

  1. Each successive CC of same type (eg 2 stuns or 2 dazes etc). The duration is reduced by 50% for each successive one if applied within 5 sec of the previous one. The 3 rd consecutive CC has no affect unless applied after 5 sec since the last one.

Numbers can be tweaked of course.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

(Just trying time understand what you mean)Are you saying that one person could only apply a CC every 1-2 seconds?

Or that it only impacts a player after a cool down of 1-2 seconds?

That after being hit by a disabling CC (knock backs pull disable stun stagger daze etc) after the effect ends either by stunbreak or end of effect time the folowin1/2s you will ignore all CC to prevent stunlock and brainless not fun gameplay.

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@Spartacus.3192 said:Some kind of diminishing returns should be implemented. Can be anything such as

  1. You are immune to the same type of CC for 3 sec regardless of who is applying it to you. Eg 2 stuns in a row...you will only be affected by the first stun if the second is applied within 3 sec,

or

  1. Each successive CC of same type (eg 2 stuns or 2 dazes etc). The duration is reduced by 50% for each successive one if applied within 5 sec of the previous one. The 3 rd consecutive CC has no affect unless applied after 5 sec since the last one.

Numbers can be tweaked of course.

So just take one stunbreak and youre gucci? Nah. They removed - rightly so- damage from hard CC. Cant imagine having DR on CC.

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@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

(Just trying time understand what you mean)Are you saying that one person could only apply a CC every 1-2 seconds?

Or that it only impacts a player after a cool down of 1-2 seconds?

That after being hit by a disabling CC (knock backs pull disable stun stagger daze etc) after the effect ends either by stunbreak or end of effect time the folowin1/2s you will ignore all CC to prevent stunlock and brainless not fun gameplay.

So... if you walk into a carpet of CCs, you can ignore them?

Might as well remove all stun breaks then. Which doesn’t make sense..

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

(Just trying time understand what you mean)Are you saying that one person could only apply a CC every 1-2 seconds?

Or that it only impacts a player after a cool down of 1-2 seconds?

That after being hit by a disabling CC (knock backs pull disable stun stagger daze etc) after the effect ends either by stunbreak or end of effect time the folowin1/2s you will ignore all CC to prevent stunlock and brainless not fun gameplay.

So... if you walk into a carpet of CCs, you can ignore them?

Might as well remove all stun breaks then. Which doesn’t make sense..

Which came first? Spammable CC's or spammable stability? Can't remove one without the other.

Diminishing returns has existed in games like WoW since 2005.Here is a link to their annual PvP championship with $500K in cash prizes available: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/esports/arenaI'm sure the 50 or players who play sPvP above Plat would find it interesting.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

General

Reminder: Also check out the rest of the balance update here

All splits in this thread below this post are for both PvP and WvW (and not PvE) unless noted otherwise

When can we expect an internal cooldown of at least one second and half for all disabling CC? no reason not to have this and being stun locked after being stripped of stability and use all 3 or eve 4 stunbreaks and still getting CCed. its just not fun for anyone and the main reason for dying most times in fights.

(Just trying time understand what you mean)Are you saying that one person could only apply a CC every 1-2 seconds?

Or that it only impacts a player after a cool down of 1-2 seconds?

That after being hit by a disabling CC (knock backs pull disable stun stagger daze etc) after the effect ends either by stunbreak or end of effect time the folowin1/2s you will ignore all CC to prevent stunlock and brainless not fun gameplay.

So... if you walk into a carpet of CCs, you can ignore them?

Might as well remove all stun breaks then. Which doesn’t make sense..

Which came first? Spammable CC's or spammable stability? Can't remove one without the other.

Diminishing returns has existed in games like WoW since 2005.Here is a link to their annual PvP championship with $500K in cash prizes available:
I'm sure the 50 or players who play sPvP above Plat would find it interesting.

I wasn’t referencing diminishing returns. My comments were directed specifically on the internal cooldown on CCs.

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That after being hit by a disabling CC (knock backs pull disable stun stagger daze etc) after the effect ends either by stunbreak or end of effect time the folowin1/2s you will ignore all CC to prevent stunlock and brainless not fun gameplay.

So... if you walk into a carpet of CCs, you can ignore them?

Might as well remove all stun breaks then. Which doesn’t make sense..

Or does it? Maybe do not spam the a carpet of CCs and time them? so people actually use their brains to use the CC. Riight now I cant have 3 stun breaks plus dodges and still be CCed by just 2 players with more than 4 CCs. I am not saying I have to survive outnumbers but being stunlocked just to look without being able to do nothing is bad development. Its a better feature for the mode as many other games have benefited and makes fights more enjoyable instead of exhausting the stun breaks and wait to die due to constant CCs

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:so i decided to take a break after playing raid in Final Fantasy 14 online into wvw. Once i entered, i joined a party who decided to take Durios. After taking Durios, a large enemy servers arrived and decided to retrieve it. It didn't take long for the Toxic Pullings Fiesta Gimmicks to begin. 1 by 1, we were hurled down from the walls by 1 Thief player. It didn't take long for myself to be lunged down-forward into instant death.

As i layed on the ground with the party dead players, it all came back to me, 'why did i even bother to log into the game to take a break?'

WHAT IS THE POINT OF TAKING A BREAK WHEN TOXIC GIMMICKS IS THE HOSTESS OF WVW?

i immediately logged out and logged in to Guild Wars 1

NOW THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD'VE LONGED IN, TO BEGIN WITH

Once again, I Praise Guild Wars 1 for not putting up with Toxic Gimmicks

-that is all and i continue to wish Guild Wars a healthy prosperous future-

Nothing about that mechanic is "toxic", it's not even anything new across the mmorpg games, so not sure why you're constantly claiming it's some kind of unfriendly toxic mechanic aimed at destroying player experience. That's just false.

A Future Where Players Experience Matters, PERIOD!!

"player experience matters" = you can stand on top of the walls and be untouchable while spamming aoes on enemies? Great, fair and interactive gameplay indeed. :sleeping:

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@"Sobx.1758" said:"player experience matters" = you can stand on top of the walls and be untouchable while spamming aoes on enemies? Great, fair and interactive gameplay indeed. :sleeping:

Experience does matter...those with experience know to use a Mortar kit and arc your shots far enough from the edge so you can bomb those below without getting pulled :lol:

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