How to Fix Stealth

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'd like to see the damage floaters if I hit someone in stealth

you can do this by having your combat log open.

True, but seeing it where my focus is already would be better.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Anet doesn't think there's a problem with stealth, hence no "fixes" will be coming, hence suggestions are pointless, and have been for the past 8 years.

This is the most sensible and realistic answer.

Unfortunately...> @VydoLL.8714 said:

Stealth works fine. Learn to play and train to counter thiefs instead . Trust me its easy ^^

Oh, I've killed a fair number of players who stealth, thief and non thief, this is more of a conversation on the extreme abuse of stealth.

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'd like to see the damage floaters if I hit someone in stealth

you can do this by having your combat log open.

I definitely know when I've hit a stealthed opponent. There's some kind of visual tell, unless I'm imagining it (or just used to fighting stealthed opponents) lol but I've always been able to tell without referring to the combat log. Another thing which I've also never heard thieves complain about (or anything that has access to stealth) even though it definitely gives an advantage over them is the fact that autotarget/snap to ground can let you noscope a thief. Never heard them cry about it, and you don't even need a channeled skill. It even gives you the advantage of knowing which direction they are. Players in stealth are not as big as a problem as people make them out to be if they knew not to panic and what to look for (visual/audio/animations). Knowing their cd's and when to interrupt or do big dmg is key. If you have bad lags, good luck though lol.

I don't play with the snap/autotarget since there are times where they aren't useful like leading a shot or disengaging. As for the Audio cues I am part deaf so I must be missing them, lag has been something else lately though. I noscope stealthed players with Rush and WWA frequently.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Yeah, for that very reason I have autotarget/snaptoground binded to their own hotkeys. It definitely helps though. It sucks that the game doesn't have an indicator or text that tells me when I have either toggled, which also leads to some hilarious deaths when I do a leap towards a zerg instead of the other way.

[Kovu.7560]

+1 for removing stealth from every profession except thief and turning thief's into a non-stackable effect (like superspeed).Rework the durations (like SR) with that in mind.Adjust thief mini portal, that should be a Mesmer exclusive trick. I haven't used it, but thief portal should function closer to necro portal.

If you want to keep group play remove smoke fields from every profession except thief but allow other professions to leap/blast off of thief smoke fields. Engineers, rangers and mesmers have plenty of other tools for survival. (--Despite what other people in this thread may claim with the latter.)

~ Kovu

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Kovu.7560 said:+1 for removing stealth from every profession except thief and turning thief's into a non-stackable effect (like superspeed).Rework the durations (like SR) with that in mind.Adjust thief mini portal, that should be a Mesmer exclusive trick. I haven't used it, but thief portal should function closer to necro portal.

If you want to keep group play remove smoke fields from every profession except thief but allow other professions to leap/blast off of thief smoke fields. Engineers, rangers and mesmers have plenty of other tools for survival. (--Despite what other people in this thread may claim with the latter.)

~ Kovu

I only disagree on making stealth exclusive to thief, but then I would not complain about less stealth in the game in general.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Id say limit the max duration to 6 rather than remove it entirely. Would break with a couple of skills and effects otherwise. But yeah, that is the solution people have suggested, and it makes sense.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

This however does not. Tbqh, Revealed was always a misguided "solution". The problem with stealth is its usage out of combat, to set up bursts on targets who cant react because they didnt even know you were there. Revealed does absolutely nothing about that problem. On the other hand, it hits in-combat stealth really hard, which is already underperforming since it leaves you wide open to taking damage since the opponent knows your position, with nothing offered in return. In-combat stealth needs some kinda buff to be worth using without having the luxury of summons that counteract one big weakness in-combat stealth has.

[Sobx.1758]

If there's any problem with stealth, the fix by far doesn't require to remove the stacking -instead just limit the stacking to 2-3 stacks or straight up cap the total stealth duration to ~6-8 seconds with regular short (3-4s) "revealed" debuff being applied every time you come out of stealth, whether you deal dmg or not. Then remove "revealed removal" from Shadow Meld. Then remove forced reveal from outside skills.There you go, no perma stealthing, clear windows of opportunity for the opponents when you can't re-stealth, stealth balanced (depending on the perspective I guess?) around itself instead of the outside skills that you either have and then can counter a whole mechanic or you don't have and can't do much about it. Also no need for a "counter to the counter" in the form of SM.

Edit to make it clear: the cap on stacks or duration would be a "hard cap" for a single given time you're entering stealth, not a cap where you stack stealth to -for example- 8 seconds and then in 5 seconds you re-apply stacks to 8 seconds again. That would obviously defeat the purpose of the change.

---

Edit2: ...unless anet doesn't mind permastealth, at which point: LUL nothing in this thread matters

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

either remove stealth, or reduce HP and damage of stealth using professions by 75%. Either of those works for me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Sobx.1758" said:If there's any problem with stealth, the fix by far doesn't require to remove the stacking -instead just limit the stacking to 2-3 stacks or straight up cap the total stealth duration to ~6-8 seconds with regular short (3-4s) "revealed" debuff being applied every time you come out of stealth, whether you deal dmg or not. Then remove "revealed removal" from Shadow Meld. Then remove forced reveal from outside skills.There you go, no perma stealthing, clear windows of opportunity for the opponents when you can't re-stealth, stealth balanced (depending on the perspective I guess?) around itself instead of the outside skills that you either have and then can counter a whole mechanic or you don't have and can't do much about it. Also no need for a "counter to the counter" in the form of SM.

Edit to make it clear: the cap on stacks or duration would be a "hard cap" for a single given time you're entering stealth, not a cap where you stack stealth to -for example- 8 seconds and then in 5 seconds you re-apply stacks to 8 seconds again. That would obviously defeat the purpose of the change.

---

Edit2: ...unless anet doesn't mind permastealth, at which point: LUL nothing in this thread matters

On edit 2, they do seem selective with their nerf hammer at times. An 8s hard cap would be too high in my opinion, 6s seems more appropriate.

[Yasai.3549]

Sigh.Problem with Stealth isn't how long it can last anymore.Problem with Stealth is how abusive it is by THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.

Look at Mesmer and Engi : they both have Stealth skills, but they aren't as abusive towards it as THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.They use it in their kit, they use it to survive, but they do not outright spam it just to avoid taking retaliation, rather they can't.

THAT SINGLE PROFESSION not only has the ability to reapply Stealth on demand, anytime, anywhere, they have multiple utilities and traits that also apply stealth, and an Elite which counters the counter to Stealth.

All nerfs to stealth should not be blanketed to affect all Professions that can Stealth, but should be direct nerfs to THAT SINGLE PROFESSION which is abusing it due to their Profession mechanic.

TL:DR Nerf Thief.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:If there's any problem with stealth, the fix by far doesn't require to remove the stacking -instead just limit the stacking to 2-3 stacks or straight up cap the total stealth duration to ~6-8 seconds with regular short (3-4s) "revealed" debuff being applied every time you come out of stealth, whether you deal dmg or not. Then remove "revealed removal" from Shadow Meld. Then remove forced reveal from outside skills.There you go, no perma stealthing, clear windows of opportunity for the opponents when you can't re-stealth, stealth balanced (depending on the perspective I guess?) around itself instead of the outside skills that you either have and then can counter a whole mechanic or you don't have and can't do much about it. Also no need for a "counter to the counter" in the form of SM.

Edit to make it clear: the cap on stacks or duration would be a "hard cap" for a single given time you're entering stealth, not a cap where you stack stealth to -for example- 8 seconds and then in 5 seconds you re-apply stacks to 8 seconds again. That would obviously defeat the purpose of the change.

---

Edit2: ...unless anet doesn't mind permastealth, at which point: LUL nothing in this thread matters

On edit 2, they do seem selective with their nerf hammer at times. An 8s hard cap would be too high in my opinion, 6s seems more appropriate.

Yeah, probably wouldn't mind either way, I don't enjoy perma stealth on either side of it (as in using or opposing).As long as the other changes I've mentioned also get implemented, because nerfing/changing it to be more consistently interactive while at the same leaving mechanics to counter it as a whole wouldn't make much sense to me.

---

@"Yasai.3549" said:Sigh.Problem with Stealth isn't how long it can last anymore.Problem with Stealth is how abusive it is by THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.

Look at Mesmer and Engi : they both have Stealth skills, but they aren't as abusive towards it as THAT SINGLE PROFESSION.They use it in their kit, they use it to survive, but they do not outright spam it just to avoid taking retaliation, rather they can't.

THAT SINGLE PROFESSION not only has the ability to reapply Stealth on demand, anytime, anywhere, they have multiple utilities and traits that also apply stealth, and an Elite which counters the counter to Stealth.

All nerfs to stealth should not be blanketed to affect all Professions that can Stealth, but should be direct nerfs to THAT SINGLE PROFESSION which is abusing it due to their Profession mechanic.

TL:DR Nerf Thief.

So what exactly is so "abusive" about it if it's not the duration? You think 2 second stealth mid-fight does anything significant defensively? I'd like you to elaborate instead of just saying "it's not the duration, it's THE ABUSE!" -that explains nothing. And short duration mid-fight stealth isn't overperforming at all.

In other words: elaborate what you mean as precisely as you can?

[Yasai.3549]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

So what exactly is so "abusive" about it if it's not the duration? You think 2 second stealth mid-fight does anything significant defensively? I'd like you to elaborate instead of just saying "it's not the duration, it's THE ABUSE!" -that explains nothing. And short duration mid-fight stealth isn't overperforming at all.

Considering Stealth breaks targetting and disjoints several targeted attacks and puts them into full cooldown when it activates just as the ability is cast, I'll say it is very powerful especially since it is applicable every few seconds.

Unless Anet does this thing where the skill isn't forced into cooldown if the targets breaks targeting through Stealth or other means during the cast animation.

If one wants to see how exactly abusive Stealth is in the hands of a bad Thief player, just randomly pull up a youtube montage of a Thief player in WvW : they will show how Stealth carries their extremely bad gameplay through spamming just because it removes them from sight every 2 seconds.

A simple fix is to simply put a 3s ICD on Leap combos.

A good player will still be able to use their Stealth to effect if they allow it to time out before reapplying it, but bad players will definitely feel the sting when they spam it non stop and waste ini.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

So what exactly is so "abusive" about it if it's not the duration? You think 2 second stealth mid-fight does anything significant defensively? I'd like you to elaborate instead of just saying "it's not the duration, it's THE ABUSE!" -that explains nothing. And short duration mid-fight stealth isn't overperforming at all.

Considering Stealth breaks targetting and disjoints several targeted attacks and puts them into full cooldown when it activates just as the ability is cast, I'll say it is very powerful especially since it is applicable every few seconds.

Unless Anet does this thing where the skill isn't forced into cooldown if the targets breaks targeting through Stealth or other means during the cast animation.

If one wants to see how exactly abusive Stealth is in the hands of a bad Thief player, just randomly pull up a youtube montage of a Thief player in WvW : they will show how Stealth carries their extremely bad gameplay through spamming just because it removes them from sight every 2 seconds.

A simple fix is to simply put a 3s ICD on Leap combos.

A good player will still be able to use their Stealth to effect if they allow it to time out before reapplying it, but bad players will definitely feel the sting when they spam it non stop and waste ini.

Ok, now I understand what you've meant and you have a point. Well, half of a point, because stealth "breaks up" some skills, while also not "breaking" the others, but we're conveniently not mentioning that I guess? Also I think that most people know how unreliable any sort of "compilation vids" are as a source of information, as obviously nobody uses the failed footage.

I also don't understand how you think 3s ICD on leap combos would fix the problem you're describing here. All it targets is easy stealth stacking, it doesn't change the stealth breaking skills, mostly also doesn't break the availability of short, frequent stealth application. Maybe once again I just don't understand what exactly you mean by that fix., but it seems to target something completely different than what you've described.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Yasai.3549 said:A simple fix is to simply put a 3s ICD on Leap combos.Or what I've been saying since pretty much the launch of GW2, a change that reduce not only stealth but also damage, bunkering, boons, literally everything thats over the top (yes, even condi damage):

You cannot combo in your own fields, only others

2 thieves could still leap through each others fields, true. But it would require much more teamwork and players to accomplish the same things.

[pninak.1069]

wouldn't this lead to more gankers? I know that it wouldn't be an issue for zerks, because they combo anyways.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

Stealth is okish.

• just remove it from all classes but teef

• remove DE elite since it counter the counter

• by god ... remove all the anti teef / anti stealth mechanics in wvw, this is the most kitten implemenation I have ever seen gw1 + gw2 (and the forum still cries, just lul). Or expand these mechs to other classes in same areas. No clones, no boon spam, no 0-100% self heal, no pet, no yoloholomode, ...

[pninak.1069]

yea removing from other classes won't happen. the other classes did have access to stealth since launch of gw2 aswell. even engi had stealth although it was bound to the smokebomb blast finisher combo

[pninak.1069]

It would make stuff a lot easier to balance this tho. Question is rather if anet will follow forum suggestions. So far it seemed like they had similiar ideas to some players, but most of the way they fix things seems unrelated to forums.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

Stealth is okish.

• just remove it from all classes but teef

• remove DE elite since it counter the counter

• by god ... remove all the anti teef / anti stealth mechanics in wvw, this is the most kitten implemenation I have ever seen gw1 + gw2 (and the forum still cries, just lul). Or expand these mechs to other classes in same areas. No clones, no boon spam, no 0-100% self heal, no pet, no yoloholomode, ...

I'm not against removing Marked from WvW is stealth could not be stacked.

Stealth is not Thief's alone though.

[Sylosi.6503]

@"pninak.1069" said:yea removing from other classes won't happen. the other classes did have access to stealth since launch of gw2 aswell. even engi had stealth although it was bound to the smokebomb blast finisher combo

It wasn't "bound" to smoke bomb. Toss Elixir S has given stealth since the start of the game, the only difference was back then it was 50% chance stealth, 50% chance stability and likewise Toss Elixir U used to create a smoke screen (or wall of reflection, again 50% chance). Engi has always had plenty of access to stealth.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

Stealth is okish.

• just remove it from all classes but teef

• remove DE elite since it counter the counter

• by god ... remove all the anti teef / anti stealth mechanics in wvw, this is the most kitten implemenation I have ever seen gw1 + gw2 (and the forum still cries, just lul). Or expand these mechs to other classes in same areas. No clones, no boon spam, no 0-100% self heal, no pet, no yoloholomode, ...

I'm not against removing Marked from WvW is stealth could not be stacked.

Stealth is not Thief's alone though.

True but teef is the only class where skills need to be activated out of stealth. For me it is ok that other classes have stealth too, like mes, engi, Ranger, a rune (wtf), ... but teef gets punished most by marked bc some builds relies on stealth. Other classes like mes invu, boons, ...,ranger pet boon spam range dmg, engi yolo mode ... give a shit on marked. And the argument meme the ganker ganked me ... the ganker full zerker teef ganks a chocho nec who wants to get back to his train ... cmon ...just lul. Most classes can just disengage if they do not want fight, reset if they want, reveal if they want, just facetank, just boonspam, just one hit, ... just idk mount...

It is a clown fiesta ...

Btw stealth is not invu / passiv proc, stealth is not god mode ... in stealth u eat dmg ...

[Galmac.4680]

Why not just cap the maximum stealth duration to perhaps 20-30secs, and then you can't hide for perhaps 5 to 10 secs!?

[Kovu.7560]

@"Yasai.3549" said:and an Elite which counters the counter to Stealth.Removing that is a good start. Cutting back on "counter to my counter" mechanics is something Anet has actually been doing in recent patches.

~ Kovu

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Make it not stack in duration and instead function like super speed.

Remove the Revealed removal from Shadow Meld in WvW/PvP, this is not a swipe at DE's its just that this counter mechanic should have never been introduced in the first place.

Stealth is okish.

• just remove it from all classes but teef

• remove DE elite since it counter the counter

• by god ... remove all the anti teef / anti stealth mechanics in wvw, this is the most kitten implemenation I have ever seen gw1 + gw2 (and the forum still cries, just lul). Or expand these mechs to other classes in same areas. No clones, no boon spam, no 0-100% self heal, no pet, no yoloholomode, ...

I'm not against removing Marked from WvW is stealth could not be stacked.

Stealth is not Thief's alone though.

True but teef is the only class where skills need to be activated out of stealth. For me it is ok that other classes have stealth too, like mes, engi, Ranger, a rune (kitten), ... but teef gets punished most by marked bc some builds relies on stealth. Other classes like mes invu, boons, ...,ranger pet boon spam range dmg, engi yolo mode ... give a kitten on marked. And the argument meme the ganker ganked me ... the ganker full zerker teef ganks a chocho nec who wants to get back to his train ... cmon ...just lul. Most classes can just disengage if they do not want fight, reset if they want, reveal if they want, just facetank, just boonspam, just one hit, ... just idk mount...

It is a clown fiesta ...

Btw stealth is not invu / passiv proc, stealth is not god mode ... in stealth u eat dmg ...

I down plenty of thieves and mesmers while they stealth. It's more of the excessive application of it that is an issue.

[bluberblasen.9684]

just remove stealth from competitive. + perma evadedo not quote me on that - i will never accept stealth and perma evades in this game. its lame, unfun and unhealthy to play against.yes i know i can play another game -> i do already.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

or instead of trying to fix something incredible broken, ban thief from wvw&pvp. There, done.