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The Death of Thief


darren.1064

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Watch noody's newest stream lol. He says "man what a class" like 3 or 4 times in first 2 pvp matches cuz there were 2 decent side noders that sat on each side node that he couldn't challenge and 3 mid destroying his team so he kept feeling useless cuz his team would feed mid and hes get destroyed if he tried to help. Both games went like this, granted his teams wernt doing great but was funny seeing him running from every 1v1 basically and even +1 wasn't super effective. All he could do was nothing lol. Then u got sind who stated thief's burst was to low even to be effective in +1'ing whether its sustains to high, thief's burst to low or a bit of both. Then u got vallun saying thief can get easy +1 kills if he fights the exact right situations and the community of thief haters start spouting thief's fine cuz vallun said thief gets easy kills lol.Good stuff. class is gbage right now, no class should just be a runner. This thief cant have burst is bs, high mobile low hp/armor classes should be ALL about the high burst and run playstyle. Guards are limited to gbage dos because the have a ton of blocks, invulnerability etc, all classes can and do usually excel at multiple things in gw2, that's sorta the games thing and thief shouldn't be single out from that just because it's a annoying design for some.

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Watch noody's newest stream lol. He says "man what a class" like 3 or 4 times in first 2 pvp matches cuz there were 2 decent side noders that sat on each side node that he couldn't challenge and 3 mid destroying his team so he kept feeling useless cuz his team would feed mid and hes get destroyed if he tried to help. Both games went like this, granted his teams wernt doing great but was funny seeing him running from every 1v1 basically and even +1 wasn't super effective. All he could do was nothing lol. Then u got sind who stated thief's burst was to low even to be effective in +1'ing whether its sustains to high, thief's burst to low or a bit of both. Then u got vallun saying thief can get easy +1 kills if he fights the exact right situations and the community of thief haters start spouting thief's fine cuz vallun said thief gets easy kills lol.Good stuff. class is gbage right now, no class should just be a runner. This thief cant have burst is bs, high mobile low hp/armor classes should be ALL about the high burst and run playstyle. Guards are limited to gbage dos because the have a ton of blocks, invulnerability etc, all classes can and do usually excel at multiple things in gw2, that's sorta the games thing and thief shouldn't be single out from that just because it's a annoying design for some.

re-roll to rev its the new thief

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Were you around just in vanilla, and then left for the rest of the game's history? If you'd been here, you'd know that thieves haven't been duelists probably since HoT. They have the highest mobility in the game for decapping and +1'ing fights, and good thieves still make great plays.

That being said, if you want something that plays like the old thief, play power Shiro.

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@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

    1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviouslyA: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

Complicated class......

"High risk"......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLFE4JKDEF8

Don't want to link more video proof......

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@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:

    1. Elementalist - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviouslyA: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.B: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyHSqY5F_2U

You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in WvW for years ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwvN4GF1KPs

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That overall..."arrogance" of thief players for having that mentality where : " I only die if I want to die and I kill you when I want"...makes my blood boil , do you think that people buy the game to be your personal toy in a virtual playground ?

Nobody in his right mind would play a game only to be in fear of a seemingly invincible enemy that can pop out of nowhere doing life threatening damage before slipping back into invisible mode

Let's start from removing stealth from GW2, that should bring back the idea of "high risk" for some burst builds in this game

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I'm fine with thief gaining sustained damage if it drops some of the mobility (in-fight and out), teleports, evades, and resets via stealth.

Here's the view from the other side. Thief - particularly daredevil - warps around and evades like crazy. With everyone's damage reduced, especially on CC's, it's nearly impossible in a 1v1 to kill a thief who prioritizes staying alive. So if thief can't lose a 1v1, shouldn't it also follow that it not be allowed to win a 1v1 either?

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:I don't get all the complaints about shortbow. Yes it's annoying seeing a thief constantly decapping, but that really boils down to luck in matchmaking and the other team. It doesn't matter how fast you are at decapping if your team is throwing their corpses at mid the whole match outnumbering the other team.

Oh Im not complaining. Im just saying, shortbow 5 is why thief is in the state it is. For better, or for worse, its the class identity at this point.

Sure, there are plenty of games where you can decap and rotate your way to victory, but there are just as many or more where your high mobility isn't going to matter and you're never going to be able to +1 because you teammates die before you can get to them.

This much is true, thief is more reliant on his teammate than any other class.

Half the time I've tried coming as a decap bot on thief I've just wound up giving up and trolling mid because I was either forced to duel for a sidenode or running back and forth across the map capping a point while the enemy recapped the point I just capped. I mean, I'm not good at thief anyway, but a lot of people argue that you can carry matches by simply avoiding fights and capping points, but I've yet to see a match where that was possible. You either win by a landslide and your help is barely noticed or you're just stalling the match.

This is not true, exactly. Maybe in this meta, but generally a thief is key in breaking a stalemate.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:
    1. Elementalist
      - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer
      - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer
      - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger
      - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer
      - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief
      - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian
      - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior
      - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant
      - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A
: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B
: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in
WvW
for years ....

Oh, you went full Burnfall. Never go full Burnfall.

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@Exedore.6320 said:I'm fine with thief gaining sustained damage if it drops some of the mobility (in-fight and out), teleports, evades, and resets via stealth.

Here's the view from the other side. Thief - particularly daredevil - warps around and evades like crazy. With everyone's damage reduced, especially on CC's, it's nearly impossible in a 1v1 to kill a thief who prioritizes staying alive. So if thief can't lose a 1v1, shouldn't it also follow that it not be allowed to win a 1v1 either?

Here is my problem: A Warrior or a Ranger also cant be killed if they prioritise staying alive. On flat ground, a Warriors mobility is unmatched, even by thief. They cant lose a 1v1. Why can they win 1v1s?

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@ArcanistSeven.8720 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Watch noody's newest stream lol. He says "man what a class" like 3 or 4 times in first 2 pvp matches cuz there were 2 decent side noders that sat on each side node that he couldn't challenge and 3 mid destroying his team so he kept feeling useless cuz his team would feed mid and hes get destroyed if he tried to help. Both games went like this, granted his teams wernt doing great but was funny seeing him running from every 1v1 basically and even +1 wasn't super effective. All he could do was nothing lol. Then u got sind who stated thief's burst was to low even to be effective in +1'ing whether its sustains to high, thief's burst to low or a bit of both. Then u got vallun saying thief can get easy +1 kills if he fights the exact right situations and the community of thief haters start spouting thief's fine cuz vallun said thief gets easy kills lol.Good stuff. class is gbage right now, no class should just be a runner. This thief cant have burst is bs, high mobile low hp/armor classes should be ALL about the high burst and run playstyle. Guards are limited to gbage dos because the have a ton of blocks, invulnerability etc, all classes can and do usually excel at multiple things in gw2, that's sorta the games thing and thief shouldn't be single out from that just because it's a annoying design for some.

re-roll to rev its the new thief

Already did, started doing ranked solo q last night and went 5 wins 2 losses. Happy with rev so far as it seems effective but harder to play.

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:That overall..."arrogance" of thief players for having that mentality where : " I only die if I want to die and I kill you when I want"...makes my blood boil , do you think that people buy the game to be your personal toy in a virtual playground ?

Nobody in his right mind would play a game only to be in fear of a seemingly invincible enemy that can pop out of nowhere doing life threatening damage before slipping back into invisible mode

Let's start from removing stealth from GW2, that should bring back the idea of "high risk" for some burst builds in this game

Man people really fixate on stealth, huh? Except, stealth has nothing (and I mean literally nothing) to do with why thieves risk is low. No, thats not accurate. It has less than nothing to do with it. Using stealth in-combat is one of the few ways a thief can get himself killed. Their way of being safe is to run away with shortbow 5.

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its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil. Or acrobatics. All they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have never seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is really bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil.
Or
acrobatics.
All
they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have
never
seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is
really
bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

you can play sb 5 spam and be the fast or you can go DD without sb and still be the fastest

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its not just shortbow 5, there is PLENTY mobility other then sb5.roll for ini, withdraw,steal,dash, perma swiftness, shadowstep, portal, dagger 2, vault, sword 2.Heck, dash alone from daredevil gives as much if not more mobility then most other classes can do when moving between points for example.

It is just shortbow 5. Keep in mind, until recently the best thief builds didnt even run Daredevil.
Or
acrobatics.
All
they had was Shortbow 5. And surprise surprise, they were still the best +1 and decap class. On the other hand, we have
never
seen a non-shortbow thief build be any good at either. Of the ones you mention, Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are not used for movement between points (much too valuable), Dash and perma-swiftness is synonymous, Steal isnt important (Thief remains the best at it with even Swipe, or Mark), Portal is largely not used, Vault is
really
bad for moving between points, Dagger 2 is really bad for moving between points and sword 2 is not usable without having a target.

Dash would make thief on par with a lot of classes, and below others. Without shortbow 5, a dash thief would be a bad decapper and +1 class, and not viable. But a thief with shortbow and without Dash remains amazing. It legitimately is just shortbow 5. Its the ability the class is centered around. The most important one, and the key to its viability. You could remove the other mobility, it wouldnt matter so long as shortbow 5 exists. But remove just shortbow 5, and the class crumbles apart.

you can play sb 5 spam and be the fast or you can go DD without sb and still be the fastest

No, you can go DD without SB, and notice that you, in fact, arent the fastest. Permaswiftness aint all its cracked out to be, even Engineer has it. And a better, lower cooldown version of Heartseeker.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"darren.1064" said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:
    1. Elementalist
      - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer
      - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer
      - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger
      - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer
      - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief
      - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian
      - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior
      - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant
      - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A
: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B
: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in
WvW
for years ....

so your one true argument is that it's okay for thief to be bad now because they used to be playable before?

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@darren.1064 said:

@darren.1064 said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:
    1. Elementalist
      - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer
      - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer
      - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger
      - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer
      - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief
      - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian
      - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior
      - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant
      - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A
: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B
: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in
WvW
for years ....

so your one true argument is that it's okay for thief to be bad now because they used to be playable before?

Your argument is that if it's not OP...must be unplayable

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@darren.1064 said:I would like to start this by saying I've been playing GW2 since launch. I used to play PvP back in the hotjoin days before AT's, and Ranked PvP were a thing. I'm a rank 560 in PvP and have played a total of 15,438 games across all of my characters and 10,079 of those were played on my thief. I've never felt like PvP was as broken before as it is now, and I have also never felt like I should make a post on the Guild Wars 2 Forums until now.

During my time on Guild Wars, I've taken a few breaks but I can firmly say that I remember the days when thief was the #1 1v1 class. Seeing as how thief has always had the highest learning curve, it only makes sense that the most complicated class to play would be the best at fighting 1v1s. That point still survives to this day as thief remains the hardest profession to play (aside from gimmick builds that occasionally pop up through profession exploits that also occur on other professions.) Over time the power creep has set in well for other classes while leading to the decline in play for other classes. Over just the past few months, ranger is the prime example as there was never a prime balance patch where they went from the red headed stepchild to the families golden child; over time they had a bunch of smaller positive changes that really helped progress the professions damage, sustain, and popularity. The opposite can be said about thief, the class that 5 years ago was the best class to 1v1 on. A very long series of balance patches have forced thieves into a pvp class that has been pigeonholed into the sole purpose of decapping and +1-ing fights. While there's nothing wrong with this particular role, it is shameful that no other class has been pushed this far into a single monotonous role. Going through each of the nine classes:
    1. Elementalist
      - have the speed to +1, have the range to also team fight with damage or godly support on tempest and can also 1v1 with ease
    1. Necromancer
      - Don't even get me started. Near unkillable at times and can fight entire 1v3s for large amounts of time. Can +1
    1. Mesmer
      - Because the massive nerf finally hit mesmer and mirages, the elite and core spec are also teetering on the edge of being viable
    1. Ranger
      - I don't think I even need to talk about this class
    1. Engineer
      - Still a solid profession right now that is being saved by holosmith's damage and sustainability; can 1v1, hold points or _1
    1. Thief
      - Can simply +1 or decap points; near liability in team fights due to virtual 0 toughness or vitality and reduced damage that is completely laughable
    1. Guardian
      - Untouchable support class that also has access to damage; they're viable in every part of ranked PvP
    1. Warrior
      - Have builds that can hold points, win 1v1s with ease, and while a tad bit slower they are great 1v1ers with their plethora of CC skills
    1. Revenant
      - Current tanks that can 1v1, team fight, and one of the best +1 professions

None of these other classes have been pigeonholed into the same constraints that Thief has. As a top 250 PvP player I have seen nearly all of the thief meta builds, and the glory days were when you could 1v1 or (before this current balance patch) simply do damage. The current big problem with thief is obviously
A
: the damage is absolutely terrible and you cannot win any 1v1s. Before this balance patch thieves struggled with winning 1v1s because the profession has been on a steady decline in every category possible aside from mobility while every other profession has received plentiful buffs in damage and sustainability.
B
: A majority of initiative a thief uses is spent on defensive purposes as opposed to offensive purposes. Defensive purposes would include going into stealth. Black Powder Shot alone costs 6 initiative to use and that doesn't include the Heartseeker, Bound, or Cluster Bomb that the thief is also forced to use to finish going into stealth. With the current playing style for everybody unfortunately being low damage and tanky builds, initiative is a big problem for thieves as we're forced into extended fights where the thief inevitably doesn't do enough upfront damage to kill the person and so the fight drags on until the thief inevitably runs out of initiative and dies of attrition. Hence where thieves are forced into the +1 nature that no other class has been forced into because they're more properly balanced.

The "High Risk, High Reward" motto that was originally used for thieves has become a sham as even using a berserker amulet, auto-attacks do about 300-500 damage each. Backstab does less than 5000 damage and that's for D/P: one of the thieve's most offensively powerful weapon sets. However thieves are one of the easiest classes to kill due to having only 1 skill that supplies stability for a single second coupled with a low health pool and no extra toughness. Core necro is just one example of a class that can keep thief fear-locked for an eternity as the thief's health quickly dwindles away from other conditions. Power rangers, mainly power soulbeasts are melting thieves in a split second with nothing to save them. Guardians and elementalists can simply burn them to death. Engineers win the battle of attrition. Mesmer and some warrior builds are the only two professions that thief has a feasible chance against. Not to mention that that is only sometimes with warrior.

I'll try to keep this short, but in short: The thief that was born into Guild Wars 2 has died. The best 1v1 class with the highest skill floor and ceiling was wasted.

You had the "pleasure" to oppress the playerbase for years before finally being addressed

You made "life" unbearable for hundreds of players in
WvW
for years ....

so your one true argument is that it's okay for thief to be bad now because they used to be playable before?

Your argument is that if it's not OP...must be unplayable

No, if you read my post without bias then you would understand my argument

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@Vancho.8750 said:Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

Dont think it should be a GS. Maybe offhand sword, maybe Mace, but Greatsword is just not thematically appropriate for theif in any version.

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@Vancho.8750 said:Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?U know high sustained damage and high burst damage are both a thing and in most mmos high mobility archetypes like rogues get high burst as well so they can get in quick and do the damage the need to do before gtfo cuz their usually also squishy, hense high mobility and evades. Higher sustain classes usually have lower bursts but higher sustained damage because the can stay in the fight long enough to deal it.I love the community lmao let's make up our own rules to coincide with our bias against thief and call it the rule even though goes against the actual tropes made by all past mmo's.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Maybe next elite speck will be 1v1 duelist with one weapon slot, so it would have to be less mobile but have better damage. Maybe a GS would fit.But till then being mobile and doing kitten ton of damage doesn't fit.

Why doesn't it, cuz u dont think it fits? Who made the rule high mobility= low burst?U know high sustained damage and high burst damage are both a thing and in most mmos high mobility archetypes like rogues get high burst as well so they can get in quick and do the damage the need to do before gtfo cuz their usually also squishy, hense high mobility and evades. Higher sustain classes usually have lower bursts but higher sustained damage because the can stay in the fight long enough to deal it.I love the community lmao let's make up our own rules to coincide with our bias against thief and call it the rule even though goes against the actual tropes made by all past mmo's.

also in those MMS tanks are tanky to the point of immortality or mages have aoe that covers entire screens in 1shot pulsing fields, gw2 is no other MMO.balance it properly not in a stupid way othe MMOs are balanced.

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