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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...


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@Aridon.8362 said:

I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

Except you probably don't understand that raiders spend money on gems too. It's like you're pooling raiders as players who play something else when it's literally the same game. Were playing the same game we as a community as a whole have the same spending habits on average.

Except I literally stated that both players spend on gems.

The difference was IF one group of players spends MORE than the other and specifically, if they spend on things directly related to the content (Since I'm sure Raiders play other areas of the game too in which they spend gems on)

It's especially relevant when it has been mentioned that it's possible to earn a lot of gold from doing raids and crafting stuff to sell, given that gold can be turned into gems without ANET receiving a single cent. Which can lower the amount of profit made by developing raids.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Taril.8619 said:I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

That's a gigantic "if" with no conclusive answer. There is very little correlation between content type and revenue/profit, but if you want to make one, take a look at the beginning of the Icebrood Saga and the few episodes before it, when the game had -exclusively- open world content. No Raids, no fractals, no PVP, no WVW, no other types of instanced content, no big world bosses. It was by far the weakest quarter in the game's history financially. If content type (the release of Raids) negatively affected profits, then surely having exclusively open world content would cause revenue to go up, but it went deep down instead.

I'm sure there is a correlation between content type and profit. Given that different content types attract different numbers of players. Also, different content types utilize different Gem store items. I.e. A person doing mainly PvP won't be buying your gem store exclusive Gathering Tools, World Boss teleporters etc.

Also, just because -exclusively- open world content was not the most profitable period in the games history, it doesn't mean that all content is necessarily profitable.

We can't know for sure exactly how much money is used to develop specific content such as Raids, nor can we know exactly how much profit they generate.

Only ANET can know that and they can make decisions based on such data where if they feel a particular type of content is not profitable enough, for whatever reason, maybe it costs too much to develop, maybe not enough people that play it spend on Gems, maybe the average player of said content spends less Gems on average etc. Then they can decide that it is no longer financially worthwhile to continue making that specific type of content and instead shift resources to develop other content instead, this can be more content of another type that IS profitable, or it could be a new type of content entirely.

If we take the fact that ANET have seemingly stopped releasing Raids and instead release Strikes, it's an indication that Raids were not profitable to continue making and Strikes are less resource intensive to create. However we can't know for sure unless we work there and can see the data they have.

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@"Taril.8619" said:If we take the fact that ANET have seemingly stopped releasing Raids and instead release Strikes, it's an indication that Raids were not profitable to continue making and Strikes are less resource intensive to create. However we can't know for sure unless we work there and can see the data they have.ANet said so outright as recent as two months back in the Message from Andrew Gray , Content Design Lead:

  • Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract.
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@"Taril.8619" said:Given that different content types attract different numbers of players.

Number of players is essential for a game that offers expansions or paid DLC. A game that focuses on micro transactions needs active players, players that actually play the game, not players that play once per month. The "number" of players that each content type attracts is highly irrelevant, because it's really hard to actually measure. How many players play "exclusively" one content type or another? Spending and activity is way more important than numbers.

Also, although the starting Strike Missions were a meme joke, eventually they've come up with content that is harder/more demanding than some of the Raid encounter. A player that enjoys content like Whisper of Jormag or Boneskinner should have zero difficulty Raiding. Meaning, some of the Strikes attract the same audience as Raids, if the population that is interested into Raids is what led to their cancellation, then why does Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag exist?

If we take the fact that ANET have seemingly stopped releasing Raids and instead release Strikes, it's an indication that Raids were not profitable to continue making and Strikes are less resource intensive to create.

They also stopped releasing dungeons, they stopped releasing guild missions, they stopped releasing fractals (although they are gonna be rebooted soon?), they stopped releasing big world bosses (Drakkar was released nearly 2 years after the last world boss, 20 months after Death-branded Shatterer and they are not even on the same level)Heck they haven't released a new expansion, or new elite specs, in 2+ years. Not releasing something doesn't necessarily have to do with profits

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@"Seera.5916" said:

An MMO aimed for the lower skilled players does not mean that the MMO is bad quality. It's just not designed for players looking for a challenge.

Except, that is never how GW2 was marketed in the first place. Yes, it was marketed to people who game more casually than others, but it was never marketed only to them. From the start they've told us that the game would have both easy and challenging content. In fact, at the start of the game dungeons were that challenging content, because they were a lot harder than they are now. Fractals of the Mists, back when it only went so far as level 50, was a lot harder than Fractals are now. Level 50 then was harder than level 100 now. This is what people always seem to forget when they talk about the demographic the game is aiming for. GW2 has, and was always supposed to have, both easy and challenging content. I truly believe that people complaining content is too difficult (except for people with disabilities) are the kind of people who just flat out refuse to improve and want everything handed to them as easy to swallow bits. Either that, or they have the wrong expectations based on faulty data.

People aren't complain its too difficult, it's the style and nature of gsmeplay that does not fit into casual gameplay, I. E play the build you want, and not have to play the min max rotation game while jumping in and out of circles.And watching dmg meters. Casual players don't want raids in its current format that's targeted at a niche.

Except that's exactly the reason why some people cry it's too difficult, because they don't want to put in the work. ANet designed this game with skills that interact with each other, not just your own skills but also skills between players. That's a large part of what makes a rotation. What's the use of putting in a skill mechanic if you're not going to create content that is designed to make the best of that mechanic? With jumping in and out of circles I assume you mean the enemies' aoe's? They are everywhere in the game, including open world. So at the least people shouldn't be unfamiliar with that mechanic and at best they know how to deal with it.

And by the way, if you know the mechanics of every boss you don't need to do a meta rotation to kill the boss. You don't even need ascended gear. But you won't get there by just auto-attacking either. There's open world for that. Instanced content in GW2 has always been of a higher challenge than open world content. It's been that way since the release of the game, with dungeons. The people that lamented the difficulty of dungeons back then are the same (kind of) people who complain about Fractals and Raids these days. But it's always been a part of the game. And yes, they do complain it's too difficult. This forum is riddled with threads saying just that.

Yes people don't want to put in the 'work'. That's the whole point, your elitist 'crying' comment is irrelevant, no one is crying about current raids because they don't care about it, it's for you not them, and they want you to enjoy it. What casual players want is casual 10 man content. Same principle as fractals.hard modes for the niche, and easier modes for the majority of the player base.

Put it this way. 3 ootions:
  1. Raids are tuned for casual play - 5-10% of player base not interested.
  2. No casual mode raids, 90% of player base not satisfied.
  3. Or have both.

1 is unfair on raiders. 2 is failing the player base, 3 is obviously the solution.

Except that 90% of the playerbase is satisfied with the current state of the game. :smile:So.... keep making raids as is and leave the "casual" playerbase to do what they love doing it's already winning!

That is a statement that I'm going to challenge because it's nonsense ...

Let's be clear here. Satisfied (however you decided to define and conclude this) does NOT mean a lack of desire for content. If you don't think this game would benefit greatly from option three because 90% of the people are satisfied, then your metrics for the discussion are biased.

Furthermore ... why would Anet dismiss option three because 90% of the people are satisfied just to focus on working on 10% of the people? Those 10% better be bringing in one hell of a ton of revenue for that business decision to make ANY sense whatsoever.

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Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

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@Asum.4960 said:Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

See, I don't want to be in the same instance with players that think of others this way.

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@"Asum.4960" said:Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

To many people, the easy things are the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".Not everyone wants to be challenged in their free time. Many people want to have fun and relax.Having to accumulate gear for Meta builds and learning strict rotations is bothersome and unfun for more people than those that enjoy it.

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To refer to the OP, TL:DR. Sorry, for what I did read of it you seem to be passionate about the topic and for that I applaud you putting yourself out for criticism.

As far as a game like GW2 not being run by analytics, I see there being several levels: the individual builds, the playing modes, and market research.

The individual build analytics are kept in check by player feedback in what skills are used the most and how they are used. There are periodic patches to nerf and buff skills as the devs see fit. We may then have to change builds, skills, or skill rotations in order to compensate.

Playing modes are looked at by the percentages of players (new, returning, and vets) playing PvE, WvW, Fractals, and Raids. If more people across the board are playing Raids, of course they will focus on that aspect of the game. Or they may try to get new players interested in Raids by rolling out new wings and bosses.

Market Research covers the "what are other games doing." The gaming 'pie' is finite and if GW2 can take a larger slice from other games they will have the financial means to bring about new and more interesting content on a regular basis.

Or I could be completely wrong.

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@Hashberry.4510 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

See, I don't want to be in the same instance with players that think of others this way.

Use the block function in game and add a nickname so you know why and you wont have to.You can simply leave when you spot them in a group you join.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:Unfortunately players have been so conditioned by the metrics and profit driven skinner-box design where they easily press a lever on schedule when it lights up to get some meaningless reward (and buy something to look fancy while doing so), that by now they think they actually prefer it over memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences which offer opportunities to be challenged, to fail, to learn and to grow from.

I appreciate the effort OP, but it's not going to be a popular opinion.

To many people, the easy things
are
the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".Not everyone wants to be challenged in their free time. Many people want to have fun and
relax
.Having to accumulate gear for Meta builds and learning strict rotations is bothersome and unfun for more people than those that enjoy it.

I highly doubt anyone will still remember daily #564 they did running around alone in open world a few years ago.What stays are the moments of struggle, growth and genuine achievement, as well as the social connections people made, usually formed by overcoming something together.That doesn't mean there should not be relaxing and/or solo content, or not even that it shouldn't be the majority of play.If there is never any challenge or inconvenience whatsoever though, you might as well be just flipping lever for a reward.

Also, gear comes really easily in this game once engaged with all the systems, it's just hard and can be overwhelming to take that first step into that. Additionally, the only place rotations are static are in practice at the golem/benchmarking, in actual fights you are better off adjusting them on a boss by boss and group by group basis.

@"Westenev.5289" said:I lack interest in raids because I can't remember the 50-90 or so button presses in some "optimal" rotations, and a lack a sense of personal agency durring the raid. Even if we win, I can't say I had fun doing so.

Rotations usually are 5-10 button presses which are then looped depending on CD's and it's not about remembering them precisely.Benchmark rotations are merely a) the maximum theoretical DPS in a best case (static target, no mechanics) scenario for comparison, and b) a rough guideline to trace how to get there in a vacuum.They are useful to compare viability of builds and as guideline to learn them, not exactly what you will be doing on every boss in every scenario.And imo aside from PvP content, things like Fractals and Raids are really the only place in PvE where personal agency can be felt. Once you know your build, play it well and understand it's purpose in the group composition, you are keenly aware of your contribution to the success (or failure) of the group, unlike Story, Open World and Meta events where really nothing one does matters as there isn't a failure state.

@"kharmin.7683" said:Absolutely analytics should drive development. To think otherwise is naive.

The thing is that you can have 10 minutes of short and mind-numbingly easy content rewarding 5 gold that is terribly designed, and 20 minutes of challenging content rewarding 5 gold which is a blast to play, engages people with game mechanics to beat it, as well as forming social bonds through requiring communication, and without question people at large will flock to the more rewarding short and easy content as people, even when it's to their own detriment (be it for personal growth or missing out on fun experiences), will go for the path of least resistance and analytics will show that more people are "engaged" with that type of content, urging analytics driven devs to produce more low quality reward driven content as a result, even though that will long term drastically reduce the quality of the game and the overall player engagement with it.

Analytics are fine and well, if one knows how to read and interpret them. High numbers in certain content doesn't necessitate high engagement with that content or even that it's fun, nor if it's good for the game longterm to produce more of that.I'm sure things like Istan farming had crazy engagement numbers of people getting close to insanity brainlessly farming for hours and hours simply because the rewards were so ridiculous they destroyed the ingame economy for years to come.That doesn't mean one should release a new even easier to farm and more profitable Istan every patch (unless you want people to burn out and quit while the rest watches the economy crash and burn).

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I strongly agree with you.

The game is about fun, and fun has many faces. Failing is part of the gameplay. Sadly, once we get the grasp of Raid mechanics it becomes pretty bland after first few clears. MMORPGs that focus on builds more than player's reflexes are always going to go that way.I love the versatility of MMORPGs, but because of that they lack in the depth of each mechanic. It's like the jack-of-all-trades, master of none. So rarely any content will be as challenging as single-player RPGs and rarely any story will be as engaging as any RPG. And because MMORPGs are this kind of always-in-development, people will have their demands, and will be vocal about them. Whether Devs should listen to all, I don't think so.

For me it feels as if everything in online gaming revolves around optimization. Once I follow that path, the whole enjoyment, for me, simply goes away. Just after getting my Legendary Armor I instantly stopped playing GW2 for a long time. I knew what I signed up for, but I still was like "That's it?". I just slammed my way to the shiny reward, the skin and the legendary that lets me optimize my gameplay even more.

And if I start feeling trapped by the game's design to be in the loop, that's when I stop playing. What is the point?

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hey people i got a great idea for how to improve this restaurant! lets trash the menu that contained mostly just mild foods, and focus only on selling ultra spicy food. majority of customers claiming that they would stop visiting if we served only foods stuffed full of carolina reapers are just stupid people who know nothing of enjoyable food, and we should not listen to them. people who dislike super spicy food are just gated by their mindsets. they will love it if we just serve them super spicy food even if they say that they dont want to eat it! this will definitely not make them all want to switch to another restaurant.

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@Mutisija.5017 said:hey people i got a great idea for how to improve this restaurant! lets trash the menu that contained mostly just mild foods, and focus only on selling ultra spicy food. majority of customers claiming that they would stop visiting if we served only foods stuffed full of carolina reapers are just stupid people who know nothing of enjoyable food, and we should not listen to them. people who dislike super spicy food are just gated by their mindsets. they will love it if we just serve them super spicy food even if they say that they dont want to eat it! this will definitely not make them all want to switch to another restaurant.

Give me 2-3 pitchers of water and I'll down that spicy food.

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@"Mutisija.5017" said:hey people i got a great idea for how to improve this restaurant! lets trash the menu that contained mostly just mild foods, and focus only on selling ultra spicy food. majority of customers claiming that they would stop visiting if we served only foods stuffed full of carolina reapers are just stupid people who know nothing of enjoyable food, and we should not listen to them. people who dislike super spicy food are just gated by their mindsets. they will love it if we just serve them super spicy food even if they say that they dont want to eat it! this will definitely not make them all want to switch to another restaurant.

More like a restaurant that only serves bread and water might consider offering actually substantial dishes, and I don't think anybody wants to get rid of the bread and water either. Just not only that.

Raids in GW2 hardly are "carolina reapers" in any case, maybe a moderate cayenne.

And sure, a lot of people are reluctant of new foods and spices at first, especially if it's not gradually introduced while growing up. Most things are an acquired taste and people will complain, but the alternative being stuck with bread, water and maybe pureed vegetables and fruits forever is a bit silly (and sometimes you need to push people to even just eat their veggies).

At least I can't imagine eating that for years. Variety is key.

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@Taril.8619 said:~snip~

If anything, MMO's need to start going the other way with things and making general content more challenging to try and illicit a response from players to actually bother to play the game.

Gamers aren't allergic to difficult games. The popularity of Dark Souls and thus the rise of the "Souls-like" genre says much about how people (Even disabled people, as noted with Sekiro when Journalists tried to be woke and talk about how the game was too hard for disabled people which miffed off tons of disabled people who loved the game)

Of course, things don't have to be too challenging, since a common argument is that people play video games to relax after work. But the constant diminishing of need to actually engage with the game is not healthy for population.

~snip~It's not gamer's that are the problem audience here, it's the 3 billion people on this planet that play mobile games and spend money...that's the audience you're trying to draw in and you can't do it with challenging content that gamer's might like. Also I could say it's a 50/50 issue on people playing difficult games, compare the sales of Dark Souls to something like Skyrim...do you see the difference? That's what businesses have to decide on, whether to go after the 20 million units sold market or the 3 million units of Dark Souls, which do you think looks better to the marketing and accounting people?

@Aridon.8362 said:

I.e. If your average non-raider spends more money on average in the Gem store than a raider, then producing content for non-raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money, is more profitable than producing content for raiders, to keep them playing and wanting to spend more money.

Except you probably don't understand that raiders spend money on gems too. It's like you're pooling raiders as players who play something else when it's literally the same game. Were playing the same game we as a community as a whole have the same spending habits on average.

Problem with your assumption is that part of ArenaNet's analytics tells them who spends how much on Gems, so it's quite possible that open world players spend a considerably more amount of RW money on gems than players that exclusively raid, the only people that know the truth is ArenaNet. Before you can suggest they can't track data, they certainly can since you have to buy the gems while logged into your account, or even enter gem card codes while logged in, so it's not data that's hard to gather.

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How do skilled players become skilled players if not through data analytics? You can't objectively increase the odds of group success without using data analytics. What the swinging cat do you think damage meters are doing? The OP is using 'shoot the messenger' logic. Which isn't logical. Analytics has discovered competition for studio resources and they blame it on the tool. They also blame it on non raiders. Perhaps blaming the tool is meant to soften the guilt of non raiders. Raids could easily offer the worst or a terrible return on investment. RoI shouldn't be the only thing determining how the studio spends resources, but it will be an important consideration.

Jordan isn't discussing analytics in good faith either. The WoW developers admit that analytics will discover optimal solutions that aren't fun, but will also give a genuine, over all picture of what the player base finds worth doing, a baseline for a definition for fun. Jordan responds with an example that analytics could show as optimized for 'fun as time' that isn't fun. He is trying to disagree with them by agreeing with them. Analytics would discover that players were logging in every 15 minutes or only running one dungeon.

_A studio must use analytics and defines itself by how it responds to what they learn._Gamifying and profiting from fun is a herd of cursing kittens complex. Imo, the studio has problems with their philosophy of analytics. Trying to please many disparate groups across many disparate modes can cause a decrease in mode difficulty or mode complexity. Tyrian raids aren't as intense as other games. NPC character dimension is reduced in the Living World. Arenanet decided to build a game world that rejected gate keeping and I am glad to see them struggle to make that work. The inflation of mode type and mode agency is a worthwhile problem to have, a valuable foe.

Gold provides a powerful analytical tool. Gold also provides agency, it defeats gate keeping. Yet somehow, the early game's economy relied on players behaving as robots at the MF. We can visit a casino and gamble. There has always been a white lie kernel near the heart of the studio's understanding of player agency. To me, it looks like an econ edge lord's religious faith in fungibility and black and white approach to revealed preference. Masochism, dependency, addiction do all qualify as valuable data points of agency.

Imo, the problems with Arenanet's philosophy of analytics fall into two categories:

They are willing to discover and monetize high fidelity examples of anti agency. Their agency creation and analysis tool has too many hard wired paths, some of which lead to anti agency destinations.

The studio's genuine interest in listening for agency combined with gold as an agency multiplier has built a game that is always spreading and struggling to find its unique personality. Which I think is PvE and the Living World. Skins and the fashion wars don't do justice to Tyria's unique personality. Using a reward meta as an exogenous landscape where the studio can find endogenous data points of fun; the studio has never had a data set to query that resonates with their unique core personality.

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@"Fueki.4753" said:

To many people, the easy things are the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

"Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

Great memory. Entirely casual.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:

To many people, the easy things
are
the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

"Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

Great memory. Entirely casual.

And yet the key components of that memorable experience were 1. difficulty, someone struggling, failing and needing help and 2. communication and it turning into a social experience because of that.

Anet tried to facilitate a lot more moments like that with HoT, but the vocal minority of casual complainers screamed for so long that they caved and nerfed half the Hero Points and such into the ground, turning some of them from engaging mechanical experiences and social mini hubs into boring press F to channels, while others are just yet again more points on the map checklist you walk to, nuke from orbit and move on, just like core, without ever being engaged or making a memory, with only a few of them still intact as interesting fights which you need to engage with, either by playing really well and thinking about your build making it an interesting gameplay experience or asking for help, creating a social experience.PoF then continued down that path further to become even more forgettable and while I still remember HoT at launch to this day, running around helping people with certain HP's and such in a vibrant alive world with challenges, already with PoF almost all I remember is just that I flew through it, nuked everything and there was lot's of sand.

Point is, content can be moderately difficult and still be casual and requests for more difficulty don't mean "make everything teeth grinding difficult hardcore content".It just means that if the vast majority of released content is walk around solo and press F to get shiny, or close to that, every release quickly becomes little more than a forgettable busy work (meta achievement) checklist to work off, instead of a fun gameplay experience with memorable moments just like that.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:

To many people, the easy things
are
the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

"Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

Great memory. Entirely casual.

And yet the key components of that memorable experience were 1. difficulty, someone struggling, failing and needing help and 2. communication and it turning into a social experience because of that.

Anet tried to facilitate a lot more moments like that with HoT, but the vocal minority of casual complainers screamed for so long that they caved and nerfed half the Hero Points and such into the ground, turning some of them from engaging mechanical experiences and social mini hubs into boring press F to channels, while others are just yet again more points on the map checklist you walk to, nuke from orbit and move on, just like core, without ever being engaged or making a memory, with only a few of them still intact as interesting fights which you need to engage with, either by playing really well and thinking about your build making it an interesting gameplay experience or asking for help, creating a social experience.PoF then continued down that path further to become even more forgettable and while I still remember HoT at launch to this day, running around helping people with certain HP's and such in a vibrant alive world with challenges, already with PoF almost all I remember is just that I flew through it, nuked everything and there was lot's of sand.

Point is, content can be moderately difficult and still be casual and requests for more difficulty don't mean "make everything teeth grinding difficult hardcore content".It just means that if the vast majority of released content is walk around solo and press F to get shiny, or close to that, every release quickly becomes little more than a forgettable busy work (meta achievement) checklist to work off, instead of a fun gameplay experience with memorable moments just like that.

You're absolutely correct there, the thing is, the drive for efficiency is not the same at all. Raids have a timer, that all but mean it has to be beat by That time, or it results in faillure. And you have few avenues to beat that timer, if those avenues are missed even once, you risk running the clock, voiding all your efforts completely. That moment described earlier had no such drive for efficiency, the goal was to win, not to win as efficiently, and quickly as possible.

I'd indulge in raids as hard as they are currently were it not for that timer. That is literally my only gripe with the mode. I dont control my hands very well, and my rotations suffer as a result of it. It's not Pleasant to fail because of something outside of your control : an unfair mechanic that triggers if you take slightly too long for X or Y Reason.

Just give my hands the time to actually properly play my class, properly play the mechanics, rather than beat the clock as fast as possible with DPS, let me use more nuanced builds, let me counter, let me adapt. I feel trapped by that timer, and only that timer. Because a build that isn't optimized to the latest meta Can beat those bosses, provided the timer is relaxed.

I'd much rather have the boss get harder when you mess up a mechanic, than by such a simple factor as "time". I didn't pull the chains on time ? By all mean, debuff me. Knock me down. Kill me. But dont kill me because I lacked 2 minutes on that timer.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:

To many people, the easy things
are
the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

"Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

Great memory. Entirely casual.

And yet the key components of that memorable experience were 1. difficulty, someone struggling, failing and needing help and 2. communication and it turning into a social experience because of that.

Anet tried to facilitate a lot more moments like that with HoT, but the vocal minority of casual complainers screamed for so long that they caved and nerfed half the Hero Points and such into the ground, turning some of them from engaging mechanical experiences and social mini hubs into boring press F to channels, while others are just yet again more points on the map checklist you walk to, nuke from orbit and move on, just like core, without ever being engaged or making a memory, with only a few of them still intact as interesting fights which you need to engage with, either by playing really well and thinking about your build making it an interesting gameplay experience or asking for help, creating a social experience.PoF then continued down that path further to become even more forgettable and while I still remember HoT at launch to this day, running around helping people with certain HP's and such in a vibrant alive world with challenges, already with PoF almost all I remember is just that I flew through it, nuked everything and there was lot's of sand.

Point is, content can be moderately difficult and still be casual and requests for more difficulty don't mean "make everything teeth grinding difficult hardcore content".It just means that if the vast majority of released content is walk around solo and press F to get shiny, or close to that, every release quickly becomes little more than a forgettable busy work (meta achievement) checklist to work off, instead of a fun gameplay experience with memorable moments just like that.

You're absolutely correct there, the thing is, the drive for efficiency is not the same at all. Raids have a timer, that all but mean it has to be beat by That time, or it results in faillure. And you have few avenues to beat that timer, if those avenues are missed even once, you risk running the clock, voiding all your efforts
completely
. That moment described earlier had no such drive for efficiency, the goal was to win, not to win as efficiently, and quickly as possible.

I'd indulge in raids as hard as they are currently were it not for that timer. That is literally my only gripe with the mode. I dont control my hands very well, and my rotations suffer as a result of it. It's not Pleasant to fail because of something outside of your control : an unfair mechanic that triggers if you take slightly too long for X or Y Reason.

Just give my hands the time to actually properly play my class, properly play the mechanics, rather than beat the clock as fast as possible with DPS, let me use more nuanced builds, let me counter, let me adapt. I feel trapped by that timer, and only that timer. Because a build that isn't optimized to the latest meta Can beat those bosses, provided the timer is relaxed.

I'd much rather have the boss get harder when you mess up a mechanic, than by such a simple factor as "time". I didn't pull the chains on time ? By all mean, debuff me. Knock me down. Kill me. But dont kill me because I lacked 2 minutes on that timer.

I do think there are quite a lot of misconceptions about raids and while I do recognise a few of them here and want to point them out from my point of view, I don't mean to invalidate your experience with it in anyway.

For most Bosses the timer really is incredibly generous and, unlike Meta events and such which generally are on a timer as well, in Raids for the most part it's not even an instant failure state. Bosses just "enrage", becoming significantly more deadly, but can still be beaten if one is close.There are only a few exceptions, like Twin Largos, where the timer can be really tight for a lot of groups, and not being quick enough results in a wipe.

That said even when one fails you said that voids all of your efforts completely.I think that is mainly a mentality problem which can quite easily be adjusted if you try to perceive those failures as part of the learning process, which then allows you to think for yourself and with your group what went wrong, what can be improved, what can be changed, in a constructive and positive manner, to then try again and hopefully succeed.If wiping is just seen as a complete failure from which nothing of value is gained, then yes, I imagine it ends up being quite frustrating, but it doesn't have to be that way.

On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

That said, while content like Raids lends itself to optimisation and efficiency, they really aren't that difficult that you can't get through them semi-casually in a fun group playing quirky non meta builds, doing non optimal rotations.People make out Raids to be a lot harder than they actually are.

As for issues with your hands I can relate and you might want to consider looking into supports which tend to be a lot less demanding on the hands/wrists, focusing a lot more on adapting to the fight and being perceptive of things going wrong rather than apm.

I would wager 95%+ of Raid wipes are due to failed mechanics, rather than the timer (and even timer fails are generally the result of having failed too many mechanics, losing time ressing etc.), so if that is all that is keeping you away I would urge you to reconsider.

One thing I really wish people would realise is that you don't need to do Meta perfect 38k DPS rotations to beat content like Raids.Those hardcore meta groups usually only take 2-4 minutes per boss, so even if your group literally does 50% less DPS than those meta builds and players, you are still far from hitting the timer on most if not all bosses.There are (very much so non meta) builds you can make like a power Renegade which literally just activates one upkeep skill and then autoattacks, dealing ~25k DPS (fully buffed), which is more than enough to beat the content.The real problem is when people somehow manage to just do 4-8k DPS, aka pressing all buttons randomly/on CD with a completely nonsensical selection of Traits, because that's unfortunately how anyone can get by in the open world, without ever having been engaged and tested by the game mechanics.

Even of those completely min maxed 38k DPS meta builds, you can often drastically simplify the rotation of and leave a lot of taxing steps out and maybe only lose around 1-5k DPS. It's fine.

Let's take Vale Guardian as an example.The Boss has 22.021.440 HP and an enrage timer of 8 Minutes (480 seconds), after which point it's damage increases by 200%.That means a group needs to do a mere 45.878 DPS per second to beat it before the timer, which is 4587 DPS per player.Due to mechanics and phases interrupting the time you will be able to damage the boss, as well as having low dps supports, that means if everybody does just ~15k DPS you will be way ahead of the timer.The biggest issue by far is failing mechanics, getting downs which need to be ressed (massively dropping group DPS) etc.High DPS helps by allowing to skip mechanics and providing a safety net for those moments when things go wrong.But you are fighting the boss and it's mechanics primarily, not your rotations or a timer.

If you are interested in that type of content, and you imo should because it's great, just don't jump straight into a hardcore pug/lfg group. That makes for a terrible experience.I can't recommend enough for people to try their best to find a semi-casual like minded beginner group to learn and grow with instead.Yes that takes some effort to find, but it's worth it.

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Again, missing the point, there is no 10 man instanced content for players who may not perform well, but would like to play in a group like this. Same principle as fractals, same principles that all the other big AAA mmorpg employ. It's not about getting better, it's about the style of gameplay.

Perfect example is wow, prior to wotlk the game had a learn or wipe design ethos, then wotlk came and they changed their raiding strategy to give an easy mode that could be pugged, the game and raiding population grew MASSIVELY as a result.

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@"Asum.4960" said:~snip~

On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

~snip~

I'm only responding to this line as in my opinion I don't think there's any fun in efficiency in a video game. Unless your on the competitive scene, and by that I mean professional competitive scene(make a living at), not like the GW2 competitive scene then you might want to be efficient to maximize your earnings potential. When you're playing a game for pure entertainment and relaxation purposes, aka fun, there's absolutely no reason to be efficient as you're just trying to "waste" time enjoying a game. People say time is precious, for some yes, but for the vast majority they've got 80 odd years to live, you can afford to "waste" some of that not time being efficient.

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