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The Death of Thief


darren.1064

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

Archer in bdo?

Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

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I got my ass punted by a thief with dual pistol who simply discharged from stealth repeatedly as I was dazed and condiblasted by poison, torment, and confusion during the 1.5 seconds that they were visible.

Fun & balance™

However, for the vast majority of thiefs, they feel kinda weak. Particularly when I'm trolling on my braindead burn guardian or tank/condi necros

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Project exa.3204" said:Does anybody else agree / disagree that changing a few mechanics would put new thief builds back into play and secure their niche in general ranked pvp?

I think giving them the ability to strike through invulnerability or shields is not a HUGE ask or would be too out of character for thiefs. This makes their team viability much better, and would force enemy teams to actually address the thiefs before a snowball occured

To resolve the stealth problems, they could give each class a new indicator above their utility skills for "there's a thief stealthed in your vicinity."--The "stealth detection" ability would be different depending on classes.--Rangers would have the highest stealth detection, while classes like warriors would have the lowest.--The closer they get to you the higher chance you have of detecting them before they can backstab--At the very least it gives people an idea of "I should be ready to evade as quickly as possible"

Thoughts?-Eros of Ascalon

thief would have the highest stealth detection, and also give them the ability to disarm traps

I like this even better--disarming traps would be a nice mechanic, and add some more interest into thief 1v1s at contested points.-Eros of Ascalon

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

Archer in bdo?

Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst, extremely good mobility and bad support and team fighting, invisibility and teleports etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

wrong, ninja is good in large scale AND small scale, its universally broken.in bdo its all about landing cc first, ninja is the fastest so its the strongest, its bad in initiating large scale but its best at following up on the engage due to speed, its broken and hated and constantly nerfed.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

Archer in bdo?

Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

Ninja got recently nerfed for being OP, now you can't oneshot high armor targets

https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/3712#Class

...No matter the game, no community will allow oppressive gameplay to prosper, high burst..moblity..evasion this combo cannot exist in the same build and it will be always target for nerfs

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

Archer in bdo?

Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst, extremely good mobility and bad support and team fighting, invisibility and teleports etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

wrong, ninja is good in large scale AND small scale, its universally broken.in bdo its all about landing cc first, ninja is the fastest so its the strongest, its bad in initiating large scale but its best at following up on the engage due to speed, its broken and hated and constantly nerfed.

Wow u are so wrong lol. Ninja is gbage in group fights. U are literally the only person in existence who's ever said ninja in bdo is a good team fighter. Ninja wrecks in 1v1 that's it. Its known to all people that actually play bdo that ninja is mediocre at pve and team battles. U cant just make up claims that fit ur agenda and think there true buddy lmao. Go to bdo main forum and find one person that states they think ninja is food team fighter and for that one 300 people will be telling them their wrong. Good try tho. What u said about it all being about landing first cc and grab usually wins but that does little to $hit in large team fights with a ton of classes throwing massive aoe skills around and ranged skills that ninja doesnt even compare to. Like I said a ninja can pick of stragglers, hardly food team fight role. U know ur really trying to twist the narrative to fit ur biased views when u state ninja is a good team fighter to help prove ur point lol.I honestly can't think of a worse class in for large scale fight fights that are as bad as ninja, some may come close.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Name one class in any mmo that is baseline glassy archetype that doesn't do or isn't design with high burst along side its mobility?

Archer in bdo?

Ninja far closer to the thiefs archetype design, hows it designed? Oh top single target burst and bad support and team fighting, invisibility etc, sound familiar except top single target burst of course :)

U said glassy but yeah ninja is probably closer to thief design. Best 1v1 class in bdo from what I’ve heard

It is, I've got a awakened ninja. Best 1v1 with top single target bursts. Garbage at pve farming cuz poor aoe's in comparison to other classes and only good at +1ing, ganking stragglers etc in big team fights during node wars etc..Its op in 1v1 tho cuz a lot of iframe and has a grab which really strong in 1v1's.They burst hard, have crazy mobility and can stay long in a fight cuz I frames. Their ability to stay in fight needs shaved.To be fair to everyone that's complaining about thief here ninja and every other rogue like class gets these same complaints, go to any mmo forum and check out the complaints of rogue class and compare to amount regarding other classes lol.Thing is this team is the only one that ive ever seen that has stripped the rogue like class of its burst potential or at least has it on the lv of tanks or in some cases lower, it's crazy. If thief needed shaves that's fine but after all is said and done a rogue like classes burst shouldn't be one of its weakness, that's craziness. Anets team needs to learn how to balance ITS rogue like in a way that keeps it feeling like the archetype that thiefs mains chose it for. High burst/mobility low hp/armor.

Ninja got recently nerfed for being OP, now you can't oneshot high armor targets

...No matter the game, no community will allow oppressive gameplay to prosper, high burst..moblity..evasion this combo cannot exist in the same build and it will be
always
target for nerfs

they can still 1shot high armor targets, what ninjas used to do was stacking evasion, while still 1shoting people, meaning you are bruiser that is fast as heck that 1shots people anyways :D

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@darren.1064 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:This is really funny cause every thief main is being melodramatic, OU NOWS, thief can't oneshot people anymore like the last kitten patch and get all points. It is not even benched like most professions when they get the nerf bat, it is still meta. It is not like the previous season thieves were forcing people deeper in the bunker role since you couldn't catch up to them and they did hyper damage, thieves had their fun but now "ou my the turntables", everyone is on some type of bunker build, it is not like it wasn't expected.Thief meta just sucks for everyone else.I don't see much whining from warriors since they are kinda meh this patch, not bad, not good but still kinda there doing their thing , but then again rolling core necro or fb would probably be better.Calm your mammaries the current bunker builds would get a shave and thief will be able to stab them to death again, it is not like there aren't viable builds for thief.

name a viable non-cheese build for thief.Well i can't cause the class is kinda cheese by default. Maybe they will make the next elite non cheese.

Okay, now name a viable build for thief that uses cheese. I'll make it easier for you.Here you go
,
. It is really funny cause there are allot of builds for thief on metabatlle and then looked at warrior having 2 which are kinda the same, lol. I think only engi had more builds listed then thief.

I looked at those for 30 seconds and I can tell you right now that none of those builds are doing anything but showcasing my point further. They're simple +1 and decapping builds. None of them are winning a single 1v1.Well i ain't seeing warriors winning teamfights or reapers winning 1v1 welcome to the pigeonholed club your class is bad at something by design.

The more you talk with thieves or mesmers..the more you realize how much they are affected by a
god complex
, it's like they're out of touch with reality..they're asking for a build that snip-snap around the map at will, engage/disengage equally at will and ofc be able to 1v1 and win against anybody.....really

no. i'm asking to do damage. With every comment i'm bringing yall legit points. You guys are bringing opinions. I want a build that doesn't feel like tickles to a clown. Instead I do 500 damage an autoattack or 5k a Backstab. All while being the easiest profession to kill. I'm not asking for more than other professions. I'm asking for the bare minimum.

if you want to do damage, give up your mobility and stealth. simple.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Vancho.8750 said:This is really funny cause every thief main is being melodramatic, OU NOWS, thief can't oneshot people anymore like the last kitten patch and get all points. It is not even benched like most professions when they get the nerf bat, it is still meta. It is not like the previous season thieves were forcing people deeper in the bunker role since you couldn't catch up to them and they did hyper damage, thieves had their fun but now "ou my the turntables", everyone is on some type of bunker build, it is not like it wasn't expected.Thief meta just sucks for everyone else.I don't see much whining from warriors since they are kinda meh this patch, not bad, not good but still kinda there doing their thing , but then again rolling core necro or fb would probably be better.Calm your mammaries the current bunker builds would get a shave and thief will be able to stab them to death again, it is not like there aren't viable builds for thief.

name a viable non-cheese build for thief.Well i can't cause the class is kinda cheese by default. Maybe they will make the next elite non cheese.

Okay, now name a viable build for thief that uses cheese. I'll make it easier for you.Here you go
,
. It is really funny cause there are allot of builds for thief on metabatlle and then looked at warrior having 2 which are kinda the same, lol. I think only engi had more builds listed then thief.

I looked at those for 30 seconds and I can tell you right now that none of those builds are doing anything but showcasing my point further. They're simple +1 and decapping builds. None of them are winning a single 1v1.Well i ain't seeing warriors winning teamfights or reapers winning 1v1 welcome to the pigeonholed club your class is bad at something by design.

The more you talk with thieves or mesmers..the more you realize how much they are affected by a
god complex
, it's like they're out of touch with reality..they're asking for a build that snip-snap around the map at will, engage/disengage equally at will and ofc be able to 1v1 and win against anybody.....really

no. i'm asking to do damage. With every comment i'm bringing yall legit points. You guys are bringing opinions. I want a build that doesn't feel like tickles to a clown. Instead I do 500 damage an autoattack or 5k a Backstab. All while being the easiest profession to kill. I'm not asking for more than other professions. I'm asking for the bare minimum.

if you want to do damage, give up your mobility and stealth. simple.

No it's simple that THAT isnt a rule at all any further than some forum posters opinions on such. They indeed can have high burst, mobility and stealth while being squishy so...

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.-Eros of Ascalon

Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.-Eros of Ascalon

Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

Man in all honesty just play a different class if ur like me and don't like how it feels anymore, there's other classes just as fun to use. Leave thief to vallun etc who think it's fine and move on ur gaming will be better and the thief players that like how it currently is can keep on doing so.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:You're right, thief is so weak that 3/4 of the top 4 teams last mAT ran them, and I don't think this mAT will be any different.

Yeah, and that's cool and all. Top 3/4 teams of mAT will always be in the top 3/4 teams. If Anet only cares about the top 1% of players that type of mentality is 100% ok.Not talking about the top 1% of players, because no matter what they're going to make classes work. Talking about the 99% of players who jump into thief thinking it's going to be fun, and end up getting rekt because the learning curve is so steep or because they are expected to have a singular purpose & don't understand fully how to play it.

Do you disagree? You think that top 3/4 teams of mAT discredit the fact that thiefs (in general)--especially in solo or duo queue ranked where the majority of players play, makes the discussion points somehow NOT an issue? I don't.-Eros of Ascalon

Thief is already a must have (pretty much) in high tier games. If you buff it for the mediocre people, it will just steamroll everything in high tier. We don't want a repeat of pre patch meta with double SA one shots.

Its not. Actually quite the opposite, the high tier is dropping thief since its simply ineffective in the current meta. We also didnt have thief one-shots (far too low of a damage) or double thieves (2 thieves is a lot worse than one and usually ensures that you lose).

Man in all honesty just play a different class if ur like me and don't like how it feels anymore, there's other classes just as fun to use. Leave thief to vallun etc who think it's fine and move on ur gaming will be better and the thief players that like how it currently is can keep on doing so.

I mean, Ive been doing that for a while now. I havent really played thief in PvP since early last year or so. Im all aboard the core engi train. Do need to pick up Rev though. Maybe Warrior once I get that dagger skin I need.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even close to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even
close
to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

EDITtested to make sure it works, it works 100% of the time I get the timing right.with assassins signet ( not activated to make it easy to do )scholar runeberserker amuletdaredevil -> so still 13,3-13,5k HPI can take about 45%-50% from tough golem HP with HS+Backstab only.Extra dmg with followup autos or when used with signet the dmg would be bigger.sure hope I didnt just create new cancer lol

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even
close
to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even
close
to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

you dont have to be stealthed, you can use p5 -> hearthseeker, now your oponent has to dodge or he eats hearthseeker->mug->stabyou wait 2,5s->HS ( in the same field ) ->mug->stabyou make a threat of a stab when you place field, then you can do the same thing 2,5s later, or you can just continue stealthing.Im not saying its perfect, its hard to pull off. What I find interesting is that nobody has ever did this to me, nobody ever tried. After so many years you would thing that people would try everything, its cool that new cool tricks can still be made.

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@"UNOwen.7132"https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPBthis is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:damage + mobility + no counterplay = bad time.in conquest every second counts, it doesnt matter that rev can deal more damage while they +1 if thief arrives 5s earlier and wins the fight on the sides already, most classes when pulled off get to be pulled off for a while and wont be able to fight back and have to wait to recover CD/health. sometimes shall push is all it takes.Now you gotta find those small pushes instead of traversing the map at the speed of light and booping bruisers for 60% hp from stealth.As it was said before, when holo/ranger/necro/rev and other bustaaad specs get some shaves thief will be fine, if you want to have different role learn different class.You dont see druids complaining they cant roam, necros that they cant stealth, its not their role.

I'm really honored that you took the time out of your day to find the energy to comment on my post, but you haven't really contributed anything that I haven't already debunked already. Currently your +1 example doesn't even make sense because once again: "Thief doesn't do damage anymore."

no, bad thiefs dont do damage anymore, the ones that took time to learn their class can still contribute

I've gone top 100 multiple times and once again, i've been playing for years. Idk how many games I have but its in the thousands. I probably have more games on thief than you do overall. So please don't tell me that I'm a bad thief when I've put in years of learning to perfect the profession. I know every skill, trait, utility and elite. I kill streamers, I play in plat. This isn't a problem of bad thieves, this is a problem of all thieves. However, if other classes are allowed to be bad and still do damage: ranger, necro, guardian. Then why aren't thieves able to currently scavenge together a build? The entire thief thread is full of thieves asking if there's a single viable build to even play anymore. I doubt any other class currently has that problem. The answer to their question is no, thief has no viable build to play right now because people like you just complain that thief is still OP when it can't even do anything. So I would highly recommend that you do some introspection to become a better player and ask yourself what you can do better to kill thieves, and if you're feeling like you're still having trouble with thieves right now then oh buddy. I can promise you its not the thieves that are the problem but you yourself.

there are people that played league longer then you played any game since you were born yet they are incapable of pushing past silver, time makes you play better only if you are capable of learning.as I said before, nerf broken bunker kitten and thief will be fine, what you lack right now is 2shoting people for free with no counterplay, too bad

Ur not wrong it is the the majority of classes being far to bunker post patch that is making thief feel as week as it does but that also makes the thief players quarry of feeling their bursts are to weak legitimate. Whether its thief's burst was hit to hard,sustain is to low or if it's a bit of both the results are the same regarding thief players issue. This is anet were talking about right? What if they don't go the route of shaving the sustain on these classes but go a different route than thief's bursts would need looked at regardless.

no, it wouldnt. its hard to believe but there are builds out there that are not made of 50k+ hp and perma protection.I do play wizard mirage from time to time and let me tell you thief can still put some real hurt into me, if you buff thief so it can pressure those 50k hp necros or 20k HP perma prot knights holos then my poor mirage will be obliterated with no tell, no counterplay and no ability to fight back. Do you think others can hurt those classes? do you think I can on mesmer? I go full glass with illusion+dueling+mirage on wizard amulet ( its like maruders ), even if I land 80% of their skills they fully sustain through that.I will have less sustain then thief, less dodges, less mobility but I cant hurt them regardless. As it stands you sick OP holo against another OP holo and call it a day, and I dont think there is a single roaming spec that will actually down competent holo, only chase them off the node. Maybe full glass ranger could do it? im unsure.

The problem is that thief struggles to not just kill the full bunker builds, but even regular ones. You wont be obliterated without counterplay. The only part that has no counterplay is backstab (which is a problem, but I digress). That backstab will not hit you harder than, at the very most, 6k. Usually closer 4-5k. Your Wizard Mesmer has, what, over 20k hp? Thats less than a fourth of your health, and thats the majority of thieves damage, it just tapers off hard from there. So thief should be less than a gnat even to you.

that would be true if thief just backstabed and thats it, there is backstab, mug, hearthseeker, followup autos before bugged model registers, venoms etc etc.and this is from the stuff that doesnt allow me to fight back, 1/3-1/2 is EASY taken from me insta from stealth, if not from stealth and hearth->mug->stab its usually over half HP but it is somewhat telegraphed.

Mug does very little damage now. But sure, lets add that. Venoms and Siphoning are included in the damage as is. Heartseeker however? No. We said exclusively about things that have no counterplay. Heartseeker is a 0.75 second cast time skill. You absolutely can avoid the damage. Thats not "instant". And autos after that are even slower. So, doesnt really change anything. You still take about a quarter of your health at most before you can react.

So no, just the stuff that doesnt allow you to fight back is backstab and its modifiers. Its a quarter of your health, or less, instant from stealth. Not 1/3, and certainly not even
close
to 1/2. And no, even heartseeker into mug into stab is not even close to 1/2 hp.

actually, skilled thief could time destealth with smoke field to leave stealth mid Heartseeker jump, so that it restealths instantly.that way HS is covered in stealth, at the end of its cast it leaves stealth -> mug->HS connects-> it stealths you ->backstab->1-2 basics before anyone can react.but that would take learning the timing, who needs that

Hold on, let me see if I get this one correctly. Your idea is to already be in stealth, use a smoke field (probably black powder, noone uses smokescreen anymore), wait for it to almost run out, then use heartseeker, wait until the stealth fully runs out, then mug into hit into backstab. Here is my 2 questions. First, why didnt you notice the pretty obvious smokescreen? Nevermind that its clearly visible (And they dont have the luxury of casting it outside of your sight range since Swipes range is low and heartseeker doesnt travel that far), its also pretty loud. There is no way you wouldnt see it and be able to react to it. But second, why would the thief do that? Nevermind that its kinda janky, it also fails if the enemy simply looks the wrong way. All that for a bit of extra damage that still falls woefully short of your 1/2.

you dont have to be stealthed, you can use p5 -> hearthseeker, now your oponent has to dodge or he eats hearthseeker->mug->stabyou wait 2,5s->HS ( in the same field ) ->mug->stabyou make a threat of a stab when you place field, then you can do the same thing 2,5s later, or you can just continue stealthing.Im not saying its perfect, its hard to pull off. What I find interesting is that nobody has ever did this to me, nobody ever tried. After so many years you would thing that people would try everything, its cool that new cool tricks can still be made.

Oh, that combo. Yeah it exists. Its not used much, because its just too easily stopped. As for your suggestion, Im pretty sure that shouldnt work? The smoke field runs out a bit too quick. But there is a reason noone does it. Its really easily punished. Lets say you place the field, heartseeker, I dodge, and you move back to the field. Well, whats to stop me from chucking a handful of grenades at the field and making you lose most of your health? Thats the issue. I mean, thats generally the issue with trying to stealth up mid-combat. I can just punish it with ease.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"UNOwen.7132"https://imgur.com/gallery/dzJncPBthis is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

this is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

screen shows 7,3k dmg.3 might is about 3-4% dmgone sigil is 3%the other one is 2%exposed is 6%add in damage from mug lets say 800 to make it simpleadd in 1 basic attack before enemy does anything, how much is it? 1,5k? expecially since executioner might kick in there.also 5 vulnerability for 5% dmg but lose reveal power, so I assume it about cancels eachother.you have 7300 x 1,03 x 1,03 x 1,02 x 1,06 + 800 ( mug ) + 1500 ( basic attacks ) =10600 on heavy golem.On this particular build against heavy golem, my mesmer would take way more, and I suspect you could easy make a build that does same dmg if not more while being tanky, I kinda threw random things together. It steals boon, you could go DD to go through the block etc etc.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

this is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstab

So you where wrong about thief burst :P

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

this is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

screen shows 7,3k dmg.3 might is about 3-4% dmg

Not with an active assassins signet. But sure.

one sigil is 3%

Only compounding should be active, which would be 2. 3 if you use even the odds, but then you lose the 200 power from revealed training.

the other one is 2%

Exploitation is the other one. it isnt used.

exposed is 6%

Should be 4%, unless you use Even the Odds. But then you lose 200 power from revealed training. Which is, what, 7-8%?

add in damage from mug lets say 800 to make it simpleadd in 1 basic attack before enemy does anything, how much is it? 1,5k? expecially since executioner might kick in there.

If you mean the full double strike? 1.2k, at best. Usually less. Its also not part of the instant combo.

also 5 vulnerability for 5% dmg but lose reveal power, so I assume it about cancels eachother.

Not quite, sadly. Revealed Training cancels out with the 5 vulnerability, as well as the entire sigil of compounding, and probably the might too. You lose quite a lot there.

you have 7300 x 1,03 x 1,03 x 1,02 x 1,06 + 800 ( mug ) + 1500 ( basic attacks ) =10600 on heavy golem.

A couple errors here. First, sigils dont stack multiplicatively, but additively with each other. Dont ask me why. It makes no sense, but its how it works. Second, you also lose out on the sigil of compounding and the might. So its 7300 x 1.02 x 1.06 + 800 (sure, if we add mug). Thats still under 10k, and its a build that, as I said, just isnt functional.

On this particular build against heavy golem, my mesmer would take way more, and I suspect you could easy make a build that does same dmg if not more while being tanky, I kinda threw random things together. It steals boon, you could go DD to go through the block etc etc.

Mesmer does more even with a fully dedicated non-damage traitline in Chaos. And thats power shatter mesmer. Cant imagine Mirage isnt even better. Also, you couldnt. As I said, its a max damage build. The only way to do more damage is to swap hidden killer for No Quarter. Swap any of those traitlines out for one that is tankier, and you lose a ton of damage. Thats also why this buildnt isnt run, btw.

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

this is the test I got.Thing to note.1 I forgot to mug, and due to that I missed many dmg modifiers.stealing inflicts -> poison,weakness, potentially confusion. that is 4-6% dmg from exposed weakness 6-8% with even the odds, should have taken it insead of revealed I think.3-4% dmg from compounding sigil3 might from thrill of crimeI would also gain fury,might,swiftness,vigor that gives extra 2% dmg from enhancement sigil.Target above 50% so no executionerI also think i wasnt incombat so no lead attacks -> unsure of that one.

Well, I did expect a max damage build. Those arent really playable, you see what happened to Vallun when he tried a (slightly less max damage) version. Anyway, even with those modifiers added (rough math here), that shouldnt add any more than around 8% damage. Thats around 8k damage total. Even with a max damage build, thats only just above a third of the golems hp. Its also less than a single grenade barrage.

Until you do the Barrage (0.5 sec cast time) , he can do 4 auto attacks for an extra 3000 damage(istant-istant--0,25-istant) , which scales with those modifiers > so they become 12k burst on Heavy targets .combined on the backstabWhich he can repeat it with every stealth , but you have 1x Grenade Barrgage :P

So you where wrong about thief burst :P

Ive never seen someone so undeterred by their lack of knowledge about thief. The Dagger autoattacks are much, much slower than that. The whole sequence is 1.68 seconds. So you cant include it. Sorry. Wrong as always.

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