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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...


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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Again, missing the point, there is no 10 man instanced content for players who may not perform well, but would like to play in a group like this. Same principle as fractals, same principles that all the other big AAA mmorpg employ. It's not about getting better, it's about the style of gameplay.

There is though, I can pretty much guarantee that you can beat 100% of Strikes and most of the Raid bosses with 3 supports and 7 people doing little more than just autoattacking, given the right builds made for that.

Fractals have a difficulty system in place which at it's lowest can literally be soloed with ease, so it shouldn't be a problem for not so well performing groups either.

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:~snip~

On that note, that line of thinking is also when someone in my opinion discovers the fun in efficiency - once they are part of that thinking process of improvement themselves, rather than just being a spectator who then has to abide by the resulting changes without understanding why.

~snip~

I'm only responding to this line as in my opinion I don't think there's any fun in efficiency in a video game. Unless your on the competitive scene, and by that I mean professional competitive scene(make a living at), not like the GW2 competitive scene then you might want to be efficient to maximize your earnings potential. When you're playing a game for pure entertainment and relaxation purposes, aka fun, there's absolutely no reason to be efficient as you're just trying to "waste" time enjoying a game. People say time is precious, for some yes, but for the vast majority they've got 80 odd years to live, you can afford to "waste" some of that not time being efficient.

It ofc depends on the person, but doing something well, even if it's just a hobby (or in many cases especially then) can be fun too.It's not really about maximising earnings or minimizing time spent for most people, although some people really enjoy that too.Doesn't matter if you are playing football with friends, benching weights or Raiding in a game, things working well, coming together and a sense of improvement can be very much so fun and fulfilling for it's own sake, even if there isn't a monetary gain attached to it.

That said, being part of a well oiled Raid squad smoothly clearing content is mainly just quite relaxing and fun, despite being efficient as well.

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@"Asum.4960" said:That said, being part of a well oiled Raid squad smoothly clearing content is mainly just quite relaxing and fun, despite being efficient as well.But for many of us getting there with a variety of people with a variety of different amounts of pratice needed in different aspects of utilizing class and build as well as dealing with encounter mechanics, and a variety of different levels of patience with others practicing, is decidedly un-fun, and possibly un-fun for hours and days and weeks at a time.

During those un-fun hours you are bound to clash with impatient players that see playing with others of different experience levels or simply different speed as a waste of their time. You are bound to be pressured into hurrying along when you might need a bit more time to practice, or to observe, or to just sort through what you just did and want to do next, all in the name of efficiency.

I enjoy a well-oiled raid, fractal, or dungeon run as much as everybody else, but I had too many run-ins with "efficient" players that projected their efficiency ideal on others who needed more time due to being new or inexperienced, and I'm also at a time of life where reflexes aren't what they used to be and practicing a new boss or encounter takes me a lot longer than those friends half my age. Some days I'm just tired and in no mood to rush through instanced content and get berated by somebody who could easily be my son or daughter for not "pulling my weight" so they can minimize the time they spend on the content.

I don't care if it's CoF p1 or Whispers of Jormag or some raid boss, I prefer to have time to take in my surroundings, adjust to the people in my party/squad and take whatever time it needs for everyone to be comfortable, rather than expecting everybody to bring a cookie-cutter build and be not much more than a faceless, replaceable npc in the instance. Playing with and adjusting to the rest of the party/squad is part of the fun for me. Being hurried along by those that put efficiency above all is neither helpful to learning the content nor any fun for me.

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I've been watching your posts over the past week, and I think there's one thing you need to understand about people that you're failing to really grasp: you can't change people's minds about this.

What they want is what they want. You might want them to get into liking raiding, but unless and until it's a priority for them, the accessibility roadblocks, however small they may seem to you, are just annoying enough for them to make it not worth the bother. In other words, you can't persuade them to make it a priority to raid and to like it. The only thing that could possibly persuade them would have to come in the form of rewards or a re-packaging of forthcoming content from ANet, and then they'd have to try it, and THEN they'd have to like it.

And in spite of your own personal feelings about raiding, them liking it after they get there is not a guarantee. A lot of people get into raiding just long enough to get their legendary armor or Coalescence or achievement points or whatever, and then they go off to greener pastures, because raiding feels more burdensome than fun. Myself, I don't like the "hurry up and wait," I don't like doing homework to play a game, I don't like carrying KPs, I don't like all 9 other people in nearly any group I've ever been in. I've apparently raided somewhat more than you have, and come out on the other side of it with a general response of "meh." I didn't hate it. I didn't love it. I'd probably do it more if it were in 5 man groups and I didn't have to wait around so much, or if I did, it'd be more likely that I'd be waiting for people I really like. But then it'd just be fractals. Point is, it's not a given that if people just raid enough, they'll learn to like it.

In a way, you're not wrong to say, "As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. That phrase sounds a little insulting because it implies that the roadblocks don't exist except in people's minds, and roadblocks/deterrents/inconveniences/commitments/whatever DO exist whether you find them significant or not...but sure: mind over matter, if people really just wanted to raid enough, I'm sure they would. They just don't want to that much, because those roadblocks are that significant to them, and the payoff is not. And you wanting them to want to isn't going to make them want to want to.

(You also seem to believe that if more people raid and more raid content continues to be released, then the game will be healthier, make more money, and have greater longevity--and I don't think any of us knows whether any of that is true or not...I suspect it's less true than you think it is. We'll never really know, because no company will release those kinds of analytics. But it's only analytics that will tell the tale. Analytics should be used judiciously--companies of nearly any kind mess up when they think there isn't a diminishing return on certain activities just because their analytics haven't reported where that diminishing return is yet--but they're still a useful tool.)

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@Naxos.2503 said:I'd indulge in raids as hard as they are currently were it not for that timer.

I've often thought that all ANet would have to do to get casual players into raiding in larger numbers would be to eliminate the timer. I wouldn't even reduce rewards like they do in strikes: if you can survive that last boss stage on most bosses when the mechanics go all-out with the time dragging on forever because your dps is bad--heck, you deserve an equal prize. Surviving a marathon and not making mistakes that cost everything is challenging content too.

People would still speed run and all the things they do to get more rewards faster, and there'd still be toxicity and all that jazz. But I think more people would try raiding and maybe like it, because it'd be a least possible to be successful in less experienced groups who don't like to do as much homework, and it might be easier to find people you know who'd be willing to give it a try.

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@"Bridget Morrigan.1752" said:I've been watching your [OP] posts over the past week, and I think there's one thing you need to understand about people that you're failing to really grasp: you can't change people's minds about this.

What they want is what they want. You might want them to get into liking raiding, but unless and until it's a priority for them, the accessibility roadblocks, however small they may seem to you, are just annoying enough for them to make it not worth the bother. In other words, you can't persuade them to make it a priority to raid and to like it.

In a way, you're not wrong to say, "As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. That phrase sounds a little insulting because it implies that the roadblocks don't exist except in people's minds, and roadblocks/deterrents/inconveniences/commitments/whatever DO exist whether you find them significant or not...but sure: mind over matter, if people really just wanted to raid enough, I'm sure they would. They just don't want to that much, because those roadblocks are that significant to them, and the payoff is not. And you wanting them to want to isn't going to make them want to want to.

If someone says they just don't enjoy content like Raids, especially if they tried it a few times to see if that's genuinely true, I don't think there is a way to not respect that and it's perfectly fine. It's definitely not for everybody.

Where the arguments start is at the reasons given why people can't get into Raids, from being gatekeeped by LFG's asking for KP/LI (when everybody can make their own group, and finding a like minded beginner group being the far superior way to get into Raids than pugging anyway), to not being able to do perfect meta rotations (when there is a mountain of possible builds doing ~20k DPS by basically just Auto Attacking, perfectly able of clearing even Raids), to the general Idea that content like Raids is insanely hard and they just aren't good enough for it, or the timer being a problem (when really they can be cleared with 30-50% of the performance of the meta builds in the hands of hardcore players, which is easily doable by casual players).

When almost all reasons people list for not being able to play the content is just a community mindset that has been propagated without actually being true, then it feels really unfortunate that so many people are kept from that fantastic content for things they have just build up in their heads/been told.

If someone just doesn't enjoy the content and has no interest in it whatsoever, fair enough.If they are missing out on great content (and communities) they would love because of irrational fears and/or false information, then that's a shame.

I'm personally coming from that place where I had bought into this community fear and the tribal us vs them mindset against the hardcore playerbase and content, thinking Raids and it's community were absolutely not for me and despising the idea of things like DPS meters, until I through a variety of circumstances happened to try it and realised I had just been limiting my own fun before.Ofc not everybody is like that, and I'm not trying to convince everbody. My hope is just to reach someone hesitant of the content for all those imaginary reasons like me just reading along and maybe getting them to give it a shot too.

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"Analytics should not drive the direction of the game" ...says the person offering analytics to drive the direction of the game, without a single hint of irony.

("Analytics" includes more than financial numbers, you know. It's behaviors, repetitions, completion percentages, skill frequencies, and who knows how many other things that can be tracked. They are studied and used to indicate both engagement with and enjoyment of their artwork, and more importantly, how to develop it going forward.)

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The vast majority of what the OP claims is absurdly false. From nearly everything about world of warcraft, to the bizarre inclusion of KFC (in a gaming conversation?)

Every large company uses metrics and analytics to support decisions. Some do it really badly (personally I feel that describes Blizzard) and some I'm sure use them more constructively. And every corporation is focused on growing profits. Suggesting that Anet or NCSoft is not concerned about the bottom line or doesn't use analytics is just some combination of naive and stupid.

On the whole question of raiding and strike missions. Personally I feel like gw2 raiding could benefit from allowing more than 10-characters. Compared to other GW2 activities and other games that raid, 10 is extremely limited. If you have 15 players in a guild who want to raid it sucks having to bench some. Some kind of health and damage scaling would have to be implemented for sure, but I think the payoff is feature that would instantly be more accessible. Strike missions fit well into GW2 system its unfortunately raids that need a little bit of love.

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Some people can not get in to raids despite wanting to because of a combination of time zones, time constraints (balancing work /kids/other responsibilities) and finding people in the raiding community able to work with someone dealing with those constraints. It has nothing to do with an inability to "get good", or a lack of desire._ Please stop using that as your argument.

So here is an idea:If making easy, normal and hard modes isn't an option than perhaps having progress you can save is. Imagine if you got 1/4 through a raid , was able to log off, and come back to it, like you can with story instances. That leaves the challenge where it is for people who have the time while creating space for people who want to do the content but can't do it all at once.

Make raids have save points like story instances/chapters, that you can come back to even after logging off. It solves everybody's problems.

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@"Asum.4960" said:That said even when one fails you said that voids all of your efforts completely.I think that is mainly a mentality problem which can quite easily be adjusted if you try to perceive those failures as part of the learning process, which then allows you to think for yourself and with your group what went wrong, what can be improved, what can be changed, in a constructive and positive manner, to then try again and hopefully succeed.If wiping is just seen as a complete failure from which nothing of value is gained, then yes, I imagine it ends up being quite frustrating, but it doesn't have to be that way.You are making an assumption here that colors your whole thinking. An assumption you might yourself not be aware of. You are speaking of mentality problem, when the words you should have used should be "mentality difference". There's absolutely no problem that "needs to be adjusted" with perceiving the situation the way Naxos described. A failure is a failure, and perceiving it that way is perfectly normal.

That is the core issue here. The difference in player mentality. And if the decades now of MMORPG history have shown us anything, is that hoping that casual players will change their mentality and their approach to the game to become hardcores is an excercise in futility. It does happen, but it is relatively rare. In fact, if the shift in mentality happens, it usually happens the other way (there's a lot of "veteran" casuals that were quite active hardcore players/raiders when they were younger, the opposite almost never happens however).

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"Bridget Morrigan.1752" said:I've been watching your [OP] posts over the past week, and I think there's one thing you need to understand about people that you're failing to really grasp:
you
can't change people's minds about this.

What they want is what
they
want. You might want them to get into liking raiding, but unless and until it's a priority for them, the accessibility roadblocks, however small they may seem to you, are just annoying enough for them to make it not worth the bother. In other words, you can't persuade them to make it a priority to raid and to like it.

In a way, you're not wrong to say, "As I've mentioned earlier, the only thing gating players from raiding is literally a mindset, and nothing else. That phrase sounds a little insulting because it implies that the roadblocks don't exist except in people's minds, and roadblocks/deterrents/inconveniences/commitments/whatever DO exist whether
you
find them significant or not...but sure: mind over matter, if people really just wanted to raid enough, I'm sure they would. They just don't want to that much, because those roadblocks
are
that significant to them, and the payoff is
not
. And you wanting them to want to isn't going to make them want to want to.

I'm personally coming from that place where I had bought into this community fear and the tribal us vs them mindset against the hardcore playerbase and content, thinking Raids and it's community were absolutely not for me and despising the idea of things like DPS meters, until I through a variety of circumstances happened to try it and realised I had just been limiting my own fun before.Ofc not everybody is like that, and I'm not trying to convince everbody. My hope is just to reach someone hesitant of the content for all those imaginary reasons like me just reading along and maybe getting them to give it a shot too.

GrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrgrrggrrgrggrgrgrgrgrgrgrrgrgrgrgrrgrrgrgrgrgGrgrrgrgrgrgrgrgrggrgr

If they like raids it they will stay in a more relaxed time in Training Guilds , avoiding LFG .And avoiding entirly Wing 5/6/7 , because training groups dont do that , and they dont have the LI/KP for that to show it and join the Wing 5/6/7 LFG groups

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i fought a single raid boss once and beat it with a pugwas it fun? yes, for the short while that I played it.would i play raids regularly? absolutely not.

the time requirement and necessary dedication is too much, the gear needed is beyond my reach, i'd be forced to play with up to 9 other players on their time schedules and, most importantly for me, i'd be forced to play builds that aren't fun for me. Raids will NEVER attract me because there's too much that i don't find fun about them.

You know what would get me to play raids?

easy difficulty.

To talk about WoW a minute, LFR is the only reason some people play raids at all because the reduced difficulty IS a challenge to them, with their imperfect gear and less than perfect skills and semi-okay rotation abilities. I don't play wow (I'd never pay for a subscription to any game), but if I did I'd do LFR and literally no other difficulty because there's a difference between challenge and difficulty. You can make something easy and have people be challenged by its complexity (example low health low damage boss with a large number of mechanics that daze or stun players) or make something difficult with minimal challenge (high health high damage bosses with minimal mechanics).

I like a challenge but I do NOT like difficulty. give me something I can puzzle over and find my way around or brute force through. I currently have sub-optimal builds that are FUN for me to play as, because I enjoy using swords and shields on a chronomancer with minimal illusions and a heavy focus on tanking and healing damage, that's FUN for me. That build would NEVER fly in a raid, or challenge mote fractal. I've soloed fractals with a build I found FUN on my necromancer, but i wouldn't be able to do the same on my mesmer. To some people, buildcrafting and min-maxing is fun, to me it's torture.

Literally the only way i'd give raids more than a single shot is if they had an easy mode.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:That said even when one fails you said that voids all of your efforts completely.I think that is mainly a mentality problem which can quite easily be adjusted if you try to perceive those failures as part of the learning process, which then allows you to think for yourself and with your group what went wrong, what can be improved, what can be changed, in a constructive and positive manner, to then try again and hopefully succeed.If wiping is just seen as a complete failure from which nothing of value is gained, then yes, I imagine it ends up being quite frustrating, but it doesn't have to be that way.You are making an assumption here that colors your whole thinking. An assumption you might yourself not be aware of. You are speaking of mentality problem, when the words you should have used should be "mentality
difference
". There's absolutely no problem that "needs to be adjusted" with perceiving the situation the way Naxos described. A failure is a failure, and perceiving it that way is
perfectly normal
.

That is the core issue here. The difference in player mentality. And if the decades now of MMORPG history have shown us anything, is that hoping that casual players will change their mentality and their approach to the game to become hardcores is an excercise in futility. It does happen, but it is relatively rare. In fact, if the shift in mentality happens, it usually happens the other way (there's a lot of "veteran" casuals that were quite active hardcore players/raiders when they were younger, the opposite almost never happens however).

You are kind of inferring a negative connotation to my word choice where there wasn't really meant one.

It can be a "problem" in the sense that it can needlessly rob people of enjoyment they otherwise would have and lead to a negative experience when it doesn't need to.I just meant to point out how a wipe doesn't necessarily just mean failure and a waste of time (at least not in non PuG's), but can in fact be seen as part of the learning process, which is actually an integral part to the sense of satisfaction and achievement one then gets when overcoming those struggles together eventually.

So yes, it is a mentality difference which can be a problem. That's all I meant to say.

Imo there is a big difference between a minor setback which one can learn, improve and grow from and an outright crushing failure without redeeming elements. And that's in most cases a difference people have control over, depending on how they choose to perceive them.

Whether a harmful cognitive distortion is normal or not doesn't really matter there.

But ofc it's everybodies own prerogative to perceive that however they choose to still.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:

To many people, the easy things
are
the "memorable, engaging and genuinely fun experiences".

Once upon a time, some months ago, a message popped up in the map chat in Orr;

"Anyone around? I need some help for the Melandru chain"

There were a few "OMWs" and "Where at?" and one "You have my ax!". That last one was me by the way. I hope no one was disappointed I was using a hammer scrapper.

When I arrived there were two players already there. The person asking for help, elementalist, and a necro. All three of us were playing Asura. Cute but we set out. As we finished the events more players joined. They were all Asura as well. Here's the kicker: We were all mostly clad in primary colors. Orange, green, white, black. That's right. We were Asuran Power Rangers taking on a giant statue. If only we had a big golem to jump into.

Great memory. Entirely casual.

I do a lot of map completion AKA "peak casual content" yet most of my positive memories come from it. Pointing someone to a POI or vista that's hard to find. Helping someone out with an event. Seeing someone getting downed because they ran into a high level area, reviving them, then being their bodyguard until they make it somewhere safe. Giving a new player tips on what to do and then 6-12 months later them sending me a whisper with a link to their very first legendary.

It's great.

My memories of raiding are those of frustration and boredom. I raided in GW2 weekly (sometimes multiple times per week) for over a year and can't recount any specific positive memory—even the first time downing bosses are devoid of emotion. I did it for a long time so I must have enjoyed it to a certain extent, just not enough to actually form long-term memories.

I literally have more positive memories about raiding in WoW 10 years ago than I do for raiding in GW2.

But the best memories come from helping in the open world where people don't have to help or expect to get much help and yet people will go out of their way to help others. It's fleeting but that moment of unforced camaraderie is better than 1-3 hours of people forced to group up where people get frustrated, angry, or don't respect other's time.

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Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy, but don't show what they might enjoy.

No game is made solely based on analytical data, but to throw away one tool of feedback because it might make ArenaNet favor to create content you personally believe is not entertaining or enjoyable is just silly. It's basically saying please ignore the world for me, because what I find fun is clearly superior to what others might find fun.

That some seem to believe that development on GW2 is not based on some analytical data is cute though.

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@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

That's a misnomer.

Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

This doesn't only include things that people enjoy, but also happens to include things that people don't enjoy but which gives a reward that outweighs the lack of enjoyment.

A good example is Daily Quest grinds in WoW. Lots of people did Daily Quests for Reputations in WoW because Rep vendors gave considerably good rewards (It used to be things like enchants for shoulder armour and the like, with this being the only source for such an enhancement). But it did not mean that the same people enjoyed doing this. In fact, the majority of people HATED it. Eventually Bli$$ard listened and removed such items from Rep vendors so people weren't enticed into grinding out Daily Quests to get them (But at the same time, they implemented other reasons to force people to do them because Bli$$ard is dumb and makes dumb decisions...)

It however, highlights something that developers need to keep in mind, that high activity =/= high enjoyment. You need to listen to feedback to determine enjoyment, otherwise the high activity can be simply be due to the rewards being high enough to draw people in despite the lack of enjoyment.

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@Zephire.8049 said;

But the best memories come from helping in the open world where people don't have to help or expect to get much help and yet people will go out of their way to help others. It's fleeting but that moment of unforced camaraderie is better than 1-3 hours of people forced to group up where people get frustrated, angry, or don't respect other's time.

Exactly. None of the Mighty Mathing Asura Rangers needed to have a specific build, nor did we have to use a specific rotation to deal maximum DPS, nor did we need a dedicated healer and boonbot, and we didn't have to plan our playtime around it. Just some people willing to pitch in because the person asking was nice about it.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

That's a misnomer.

Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

This doesn't only include things that people enjoy, but also happens to include things that people don't enjoy but which gives a reward that outweighs the lack of enjoyment.

A good example is Daily Quest grinds in WoW. Lots of people did Daily Quests for Reputations in WoW because Rep vendors gave considerably good rewards (It used to be things like enchants for shoulder armour and the like, with this being the only source for such an enhancement). But it did not mean that the same people enjoyed doing this. In fact, the majority of people
HATED
it. Eventually Bli$$ard listened and removed such items from Rep vendors so people weren't enticed into grinding out Daily Quests to get them (But at the same time, they implemented other reasons to force people to do them because Bli$$ard is dumb and makes dumb decisions...)

It however, highlights something that developers need to keep in mind, that high activity =/= high enjoyment. You need to listen to feedback to determine enjoyment, otherwise the high activity can be simply be due to the rewards being high enough to draw people in despite the lack of enjoyment.

Yes, sorry, good point.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

That's a misnomer.

Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.You assume that every player is motivated by rewards. I know a lot of people who are, but I also know a lot of people who are not. Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

I'm sure ANet is aware of this and knows how to interpret the numbers and account for those grinding the content until they've gotten what they want as opposed to those who keep coming back to said content again and again. For example, I still love this game's dungeons and take every chance I get to jump into one, despite having finished all of the dungeon related collections and achievements years ago, with dungeon tokens accumulating in my wallet, never being used. I know I can turn those tokens into gold and/or materials in a variety of ways, I just don't because it's not fun to me. Putting up a simple "p1" in lfg and running with whatever joins on the other hand is fun. Last time I wanted to run CoE for example, four people joined that were all new to the dungeon (and even to the game in general). It was a decidedly un-meta run, but it was just sooo much fun, I can't help but still smile when I think of it.

Analytics is much more than just counting a simple "x people do content a, y people do content b". The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding. The challenge is to interpret the numbers so you come to the right conclusions. Personally I think ANet has proven quite often that they are good at reading their numbers as well as taking in feedback from other sources to come up with content suitable to the game. Not everything is perfect, but the majority of new features and updates seems to imply to me that ANet has a pretty good grasp on how to use all feedback sources available to them, including interpreting the analytics available to them.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

That's a misnomer.

Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.

This doesn't only include things that people enjoy, but also happens to include things that people don't enjoy but which gives a reward that outweighs the lack of enjoyment.It however, highlights something that developers need to keep in mind, that high activity =/= high enjoyment. You need to listen to feedback to determine enjoyment, otherwise the high activity can be simply be due to the rewards being high enough to draw people in despite the lack of enjoyment.

Exactly this.

Examples from this game too:Auric Basin Multi lootIstan multi farmFractal level 40 farmSwamps of the MistsQueensdale Champion trainSilverwastes Amber Sandfall chest farmEOTM Karma Trainsand probably the "fist" one: Citadel of Flame Path 1 farmor was it Penit/Shelter farm the first? Or what was that golem in Cursed Shore that I forgot his name? Or the one at the southeast edge of Cursed Shore with the vigil tactician and the grubs? So many memories, so many farmsand many more examples like these

Things that are really high reward/low effort will destroy analytics and not show "enjoyment" at all. On the flip side, the developers used analytics to figure out that these things were over-rewarding and nerfed them, a very good use of analytics.

edit: removed Silverwastes RIBA because that still exists, but replaced it with the much older Silverwastes Amber Sandfall chest farm which was... far worse.

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"Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...."

And yet it is! It is a fact of life in our information age. gw2 is no exception. However, the issue isn't really analytics is it? That's just a cover for what you really say in your post. You don't want "those" players playing your content! Mindset you say? No...most people don't raid because it's not fun. The proof is in the pudding. This is coming from someone who went through the whole process. Research, practicing rotations on the golem, helping to run guild raid events, committing to voice comms and the raid, getting the actual kills. Not really my choice, by the way, I was just a guild officer doing what was needed. I never WANTED to raid.

You raiders need to make a choice. Make the raids easier and acceptable to attract more people or keep them hard and stay small and don't complain. You can't have both.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Doesn't this thread miss the whole point of: Difficulty is subjective, fun is subjective, where analytics show what people enjoy

That's a misnomer.

Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.You assume that every player is motivated by rewards. I know a lot of people who are, but I also know a lot of people who are not. Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

Then the reward they play for is enjoyment so the point stands, however if you wish to then you can say that what the analytics show is what content people are willing to do for whatever reason.

I'm sure the people in ArenaNet know about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards and a good deal about player motivation. I'm also sure that the exact reason why individuals are willing to do it is a nuance that isn't really all that relevant in aggregate.

They have content that people do and content they don't.

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:You raiders need to make a choice. Make the raids easier and acceptable to attract more people or keep them hard and stay small and don't complain. You can't have both.

It'd be better to have multiple difficulties than to give raids a blanket nerf.That way, players with a more casual attitude can enjoy the easier mode and the story. while current raiders can enjoy the current difficulty.This can easily be achieved by reducing the health and damage of bosses and removing the enrage timers, as well as one-shot mechanics (if they exist).Arenanet could even add a harder mode for those madwomen and madmen who think current raids are too easy.

In WoW, LFR as an easier difficulty saved the raiding scene by massively increasing player participation and thus justifying the continued production of raids. Meanwhile, heroic/mythic raids gave more thrill to the top percentage raiders.There is no reason GW2 should have different results when adding multiple difficulties.

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