Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rasimir.6239 said:The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

We all know that S3 zones are mostly dead by this point, especially Ember Bay, Lake Doric and Draconis Mons, all zones that I've been to recently, even when they were part of the daily. And most S4 zones don't have many players around except during a meta, Thuderhead Peaks being a curious exception by my observations. What do these analytics tell us about enjoyment and rewards?

[Rasimir.6239]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

We all know that S3 zones are mostly dead by this point, especially Ember Bay, Lake Doric and Draconis Mons, all zones that I've been to recently, even when they were part of the daily. And most S4 zones don't have many players around except during a meta, Thuderhead Peaks being a curious exception by my observations. What do these analytics tell us about enjoyment and rewards?Nothing, since they are only a (small) part of the analytics available. You can't just grab a handfull of numbers out of the huge web and base your whole argument on them. Needless to say, I'm sure ANet doesn't do that either.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

We all know that S3 zones are mostly dead by this point, especially Ember Bay, Lake Doric and Draconis Mons, all zones that I've been to recently, even when they were part of the daily. And most S4 zones don't have many players around except during a meta, Thuderhead Peaks being a curious exception by my observations. What do these analytics tell us about enjoyment and rewards?Nothing, since they are only a (small) part of the analytics available. You can't just grab a handfull of numbers out of the huge web and base your whole argument on them. Needless to say, I'm sure ANet doesn't do that either.

You were talking about what people enjoy and find rewarding. If living world zones are dead then it means few people find them enjoyable or rewarding anymore. Rewarding is understandable, new rewards appear on new maps, better ways to make gold and so on. But enjoyment? How can someone "enjoy" piece of content A and then abandon it 1 year later, maybe they weren't there because they actually enjoyed it in the first place? Or at the very least the new rewards/shinnies outweighed the enjoyment they found in that content and lured them away.

Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

Which is what raised my question in the first place. If these people play content because they enjoy it, then content that is not played anymore, like living world maps, by the same count means they are not enjoyable anymore?

[Rasimir.6239]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

We all know that S3 zones are mostly dead by this point, especially Ember Bay, Lake Doric and Draconis Mons, all zones that I've been to recently, even when they were part of the daily. And most S4 zones don't have many players around except during a meta, Thuderhead Peaks being a curious exception by my observations. What do these analytics tell us about enjoyment and rewards?Nothing, since they are only a (small) part of the analytics available. You can't just grab a handfull of numbers out of the huge web and base your whole argument on them. Needless to say, I'm sure ANet doesn't do that either.

You were talking about what people enjoy and find rewarding.Yes.

If living world zones are dead then it means few people find them enjoyable or rewarding anymore.Not necessarily. I for example don't go there often right now because I spend most of my time enjoying SAB. At other times I do go to differens ls maps randomly, but the sheer number of maps can make it so I don't go to any specific map for days or even weeks. You have to take into account alternatives as well as age of content, since enjoyment usually drops the more often and/or regularly you play specific content.

Rewarding is understandable, new rewards appear on new maps, better ways to make gold and so on. But enjoyment? How can someone "enjoy" piece of content A and then abandon it 1 year later, maybe they weren't there because they actually enjoyed it in the first place? Or at the very least the new rewards/shinnies outweighed the enjoyment they found in that content and lured them away.Or maybe there are so many things to do they enjoy that they spread out and play a variety of content, as I tried to explain above.

Lots of people, especially in this game where almost all of the rewards can be gotten in a variety of ways, actually do play content because they enjoy said content.

Which is what raised my question in the first place. If these people play content because they enjoy it, then content that is not played anymore, like living world maps, by the same count means they are not enjoyable anymore?Again, not necessarily. I wrote this sentence in reply to this:@Taril.8619 said:Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.I challenge the argument that people

only

play what they deem suitably rewarding. People play for a variety or reasons.

That aside, just because somebody plays one piece of content because they enjoy it doesn't mean they don't enjoy everything else. It's not math, where A=B means B=A. There is so much content in this game that I enjoy that I don't have enough time to play even a fraction of it, and I doubt I'm the only one.

Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Rasimir.6239" said:Not necessarily. I for example don't go there often right now because I spend most of my time enjoying SAB. At other times I do go to differens ls maps randomly, but the sheer number of maps can make it so I don't go to any specific map for days or even weeks. You have to take into account alternatives as well as age of content, since enjoyment usually drops the more often and/or regularly you play specific content.

This wasn't an observation during SAB but overall. HOT maps are mostly well populated even at this time and are older than the living world maps. As for the sheer number of maps, that's why they changed the daily system. It didn't really help to populate the maps outside their respective meta events but at least it's a way to direct more players to specific maps.

Or maybe there are so many things to do they enjoy that they spread out and play a variety of content, as I tried to explain above.

Or it's much simpler that the maps aren't really "enjoyable" anymore. And your "spread out" argument is rather weak if you notice just how many players flock to the latest meta available. If those 100+ players doing the Dragonfall meta spread around after it, doing a variety of content in all Living World maps that they actually enjoyed, then most of them would still be "filled" with players. There is enough players on the current meta to fill all other maps once it's done. But there is probably another meta on the timer that requires more attention than "enjoyment".

I challenge the argument that people only play what they deem suitably rewarding. People play for a variety or reasons.

Only is a strong word, I'd say it's just a very strong priority, as evident by the sheer popularity of all the farms I listed in my earlier post. So although there is a variety of reasons to play, rewards is probably at the top of the list for most players. Be it gold, unique skins or achievements.

That aside, just because somebody plays one piece of content because they enjoy it doesn't mean they don't enjoy everything else. It's not math, where A=B means B=A. There is so much content in this game that I enjoy that I don't have enough time to play even a fraction of it, and I doubt I'm the only one.

Of course.

Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

Well, something is keeping you from going to your most enjoyable maps then, it's a matter of priorities.

[Rasimir.6239]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

Well, something is keeping you from going to your most enjoyable maps then, it's a matter of priorities.That might well be the key difference in our way of thinking: I don't

have

any priorities when playing this game other then wasting my time in an enjoyable way. It's entertainment time. I know there are pieces of content in this game I find much more entertaining and enjoyable than others, but I don't make it a priority to choose the content I play at any given time for any particular reason, including weighting the enjoyment I get out of each map at any given point of time.

[thepenmonster.3621]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:How can someone "enjoy" piece of content A and then abandon it 1 year later...

Probably the same reason I haven't played Chrono Trigger in over a decade. No matter how lovely you feel it is, you do eventually get tired.

[maddoctor.2738]

@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:How can someone "enjoy" piece of content A and then abandon it 1 year later...

Probably the same reason I haven't played

Chrono Trigger

in over a decade. No matter how lovely you feel it is, you do eventually get tired.

That's a different game entirely. Also, as I already said there are pieces of content in -this- game that are still played. HOT maps are played more than S3 maps, POF maps are played (?) more than most S4 maps. All maps are still played when there is a reward/meta available to them. Fractals and Raids are still being run to this day, including Fractals that were available for many years and Raids that have been available since way before S3.And when I say content that is being "played" I mean content that is alive and active compared to living world maps that are actually dead.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

Well, something is keeping you from going to your most enjoyable maps then, it's a matter of priorities.That might well be the key difference in our way of thinking: I don't

have

any priorities when playing this game other then wasting my time in an enjoyable way. It's entertainment time. I know there are pieces of content in this game I find much more entertaining and enjoyable than others, but I don't make it a priority to choose the content I play at any given time for any particular reason, including weighting the enjoyment I get out of each map at any given point of time.

But you do have priorities if you choose to spend your entertainment time on one part of the game and not another one.

To go back to what you said initially and I responded to:

The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

This is about comparison, that's what analytics allow. Compare content that is being played with content that is not played. If you choose to not play what you actually enjoy that's gonna hurt what you actually enjoy in the end. When it comes time to cut loses and reduce/remove some form of content what do you think should be prioritized to remove? Content that players "enjoy" but not play, or content that players actually play? Which kind of number/analytic shows that you enjoy Tangled Depths more than let's say Bloodstone Fen if you play more on Bloodstone Fen than Tangled Depths? Regardless if you say you "like Tangled Depths" more?

[Kirin.7306]

I play nothing but WvW and I assure you I am NOT having fun!

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Do you actually think the Devs are going to remove maps/content after the Living World Season 1 outcry?
Unlikely, no matter how much it is played, or not played.

[kharmin.7683]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:How can someone "enjoy" piece of content A and then abandon it 1 year later...

Probably the same reason I haven't played

Chrono Trigger

in over a decade. No matter how lovely you feel it is, you do eventually get tired.

That's a different game entirely. Also, as I already said there are pieces of content in -this- game that are still played. HOT maps are played more than S3 maps, POF maps are played (?) more than most S4 maps. All maps are still played when there is a reward/meta available to them. Fractals and Raids are still being run to this day, including Fractals that were available for many years and Raids that have been available since way before S3.And when I say content that is being "played" I mean content that is alive and active compared to living world maps that are actually dead.

I often visit S3 maps because of the lower population on them. It has nothing to do with the rewards or meta. It can be more immersive to me to explore without a fully-populated map.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Do you actually think the Devs are going to remove maps/content after the Living World Season 1 outcry?

Unlikely, no matter how much it is played, or not played.

Of course not. The question is whether analytics/data show what players enjoy or not.

@kharmin.7683 said:I often visit S3 maps because of the lower population on them. It has nothing to do with the rewards or meta. It can be more immersive to me to explore without a fully-populated map.

Good. Now how is that gonna show up on the analytics of that map compared to the other maps?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

Well, something is keeping you from going to your most enjoyable maps then, it's a matter of priorities.That might well be the key difference in our way of thinking: I don't

have

any priorities when playing this game other then wasting my time in an enjoyable way. It's entertainment time. I know there are pieces of content in this game I find much more entertaining and enjoyable than others, but I don't make it a priority to choose the content I play at any given time for any particular reason, including weighting the enjoyment I get out of each map at any given point of time.

But you do have priorities if you choose to spend your entertainment time on one part of the game and not another one.

To go back to what you said initially and I responded to:

The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

This is about comparison, that's what analytics allow. Compare content that is being played with content that is not played. If you choose to not play what you actually enjoy that's gonna hurt what you actually enjoy in the end. When it comes time to cut loses and reduce/remove some form of content what do you think should be prioritized to remove? Content that players "enjoy" but

not

play, or content that players actually play? Which kind of number/analytic shows that you enjoy Tangled Depths more than let's say Bloodstone Fen if you play more on Bloodstone Fen than Tangled Depths? Regardless if you say you "like Tangled Depths" more?

Enjoyment isnt absolute. Do you eat the same food every day because its your favourite? Do you rewatch your favourite movie over and over, or do you only read one book because not reading it would make you abandon it? Such nonsense.

A map in this game can be your favourite or the one you find the most fun, even if you dont ölay it continuously.

[Taril.8619]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:Analytics will not show what people enjoy.

It will only show what people deem suitably rewarding.I challenge the argument that people

only

play what they deem suitably rewarding. People play for a variety or reasons.

That aside, just because somebody plays one piece of content because they enjoy it doesn't mean they don't enjoy everything else. It's not math, where A=B means B=A. There is so much content in this game that I enjoy that I don't have enough time to play even a fraction of it, and I doubt I'm the only one.

People will only play what they deem suitably rewarding.

This doesn't mean they will only play the MOST rewarding content, just that the content they play will provide a sufficient amount of reward.

This can include enjoyment as a reward. Meaning people can play content just because it's fun, even if it won't give them any tangible returns (I.e. Gear, skins, gold etc)

As far as not playing other content, this is the other aspect of analytics that often gets overlooked, since due to factors such as non-enjoyment related rewards pulling players towards a specific piece of content, it can mean that other content that is enjoyable is left unplayed because it is not rewarding enough to compete with the content with more tangible benefits.

It is this set of circumstances that leads to analytics of player time usage that requires active thought and in depth analysis in order to full understand how to develop content. As you need to know exactly why people are playing the content they are, as opposed to taking the data at face value and assuming something like "People play this, therefore they enjoy it and people don't play that therefore they don't enjoy it"

As a result, it's really key to look at reward structures to ensure that certain pieces of content aren't too rewarding in terms of tangible returns to try and maximize players picking content based on enjoyment, whilst also trying to gather player feedback so they can literally tell you what content they find enjoyable.

Then you can use these pieces of data together to see what people like and what people don't. Which can THEN lead to you producing more content that is equally enjoyable if you fully understand the reasons behind why the content is liked and can apply that to new content that also offers something new (As people can find it less interesting if you merely copy/paste the same content again)

[maddoctor.2738]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Enjoyment isnt absolute. Do you eat the same food every day because its your favourite? Do you rewatch your favourite movie over and over, or do you only read one book because not reading it would make you abandon it? Such nonsense.

Not really sure why people keep posting the obvious but let's try one more time. That has very little to do with the argument at hand, that analytics/data show player enjoyment.

A map in this game can be your favourite or the one you find the most fun, even if you dont ölay it continuously.

And that map won't appear as your favorite in any kind of data/analytics if you do that. It's impossible for data/statistics to put weight on the time spend on anything.

edit: in one phrase, data/analytics show quantity, not quality

[kharmin.7683]

All of this is purely academic, really. None of us knows which analytics or how many Anet uses. It would be folly to assume that they are only looking at one set.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:Case in point: I haven't been to either Draconic Mons nor Tangled Depth in ages, but those two still are my absolutely favorite and most enjoyable maps in this game.

Well, something is keeping you from going to your most enjoyable maps then, it's a matter of priorities.That might well be the key difference in our way of thinking: I don't

have

any priorities when playing this game other then wasting my time in an enjoyable way. It's entertainment time. I know there are pieces of content in this game I find much more entertaining and enjoyable than others, but I don't make it a priority to choose the content I play at any given time for any particular reason, including weighting the enjoyment I get out of each map at any given point of time.

But you do have priorities if you choose to spend your entertainment time on one part of the game and not another one.

To go back to what you said initially and I responded to:

The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.

This is about comparison, that's what analytics allow. Compare content that is being played with content that is not played. If you choose to not play what you actually enjoy that's gonna hurt what you actually enjoy in the end. When it comes time to cut loses and reduce/

remove

some form of content what do you think should be prioritized to

remove

? Content that players "enjoy" but

not

play, or content that players actually play? Which kind of number/analytic shows that you enjoy Tangled Depths more than let's say Bloodstone Fen if you play more on Bloodstone Fen than Tangled Depths? Regardless if you say you "like Tangled Depths" more?

Then, I'm not sure why you stated that content would be removed.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Then, I'm not sure why you stated that content would be removed.

I did not say they should remove content.

When it comes time to cut loses and reduce/remove some form of content what do you think should be prioritized to remove? Content that players "enjoy" but not play, or content that players actually play? Which kind of number/analytic shows that you enjoy Tangled Depths more than let's say Bloodstone Fen if you play more on Bloodstone Fen than Tangled Depths? Regardless if you say you "like Tangled Depths" more?

This is the part you are referring to I think, I also used the word "reduce" the first time, but I didn't use it at the end of the question, hence the confusion. In a sense, if a type of content isn't "played" enough, regardless if players like it or not, is the one that will suffer first. Because enjoyment cannot be quantified. Take 10 players that don't like content B much, but love content A, however since content B has some kind of reward they want they play content B more than content A. In the end the fact that they enjoy content A more than content B won't be easily apparent (if at all) on any kind of metric or data. It will simply not show up. It's much more complex than that of course but my point is, no metric/hard data can actually show "enjoyment" as it's entirely subjective and might even depend on the mood/day.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You certainly did.

[thepenmonster.3621]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:And when I say content that is being "played" I mean content that is alive and active compared to living world maps that are actually dead.

Treating "dead content" as akin to a beloved but never played game is a far more realistic approach to understanding the state of an MMO's population than the constant "If you have more raids, which I happen to love entirely by coincidence, you'll have more players" threads like this one.

[maddoctor.2738]

@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:And when I say content that is being "played" I mean content that is alive and active compared to living world maps that are actually dead.

Treating "dead content" as akin to a beloved but never played game is a far more realistic approach to understanding the state of an MMO's population than the constant "If you have more raids, which I happen to love entirely by coincidence, you'll have more players" threads like this one.

No that's not realistic way to treat it at all. If the content was beloved it wouldn't be dead in the first place, just like all the other pieces of content in the game that are still active even though they have similar time frames. There was a lot released together with the living world episode maps, that is still alive and kicking, while living world maps are dead. If they were more beloved they wouldn't be dead.

[Etria.3642]

So how will the analytics count me? Take yesterday. I spent 2 hours running the regular version of SAB. I spent 2 hours running around WVW for the dailies and stayed for awhile since I was getting outnumbered pips. Took a break. Ate. Returned and wandered around doing random stuff, map completion. After dinner hopped on for my static but our group was missing two so instead of Dhuum we pugged the open spots and did wing 1 and 3. Ran out of time on Xera(we raid for two hours only).

My daughter got a bonus from her work, and said, "Hey, have some gems." I got $35 in gems. Does this amount count toward raids, wvw, festival, or open world?

[Psientist.6437]

Analytics can uncover qualitative descriptions of what the player base considers fun. Given two identical activities with one giving more tangible rewards than the other, players will move to the activity that gives more tangible rewards. Congratulations, you have just discovered that, on average, players think tangible rewards are fun. That doesn't make us bad people or even shallow. We can't exclude tangible rewards from our description of fun without using a "no true gamer" fallacy.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Enjoyment isnt absolute. Do you eat the same food every day because its your favourite? Do you rewatch your favourite movie over and over, or do you only read one book because not reading it would make you abandon it? Such nonsense.

Not really sure why people keep posting the obvious but let's try one more time. That has very little to do with the argument at hand, that analytics/data show player enjoyment.

A map in this game can be your favourite or the one you find the most fun, even if you dont ölay it continuously.

And that map won't appear as your favorite in any kind of data/analytics if you do that. It's impossible for data/statistics to put weight on the time spend on anything.

edit: in one phrase, data/analytics show quantity, not quality

But it doesnt have little to do with the argument at hand at all. It just means that while certain data can show player enjoyment its not a 100% picture.

In GW2, not everything is repeatable, and some things are more rewarding when repeated and thus more alive. This does not in any way mean that "dead content" is less favourable necessarily, but instead just lacks replayability.

Like living story for example. I bet lots of people mostly play through it once or twice. Andonce played through, how many do return to it? I doubt that many. Yet Arenanet has been expanding on it and spend loads of resources on something that essentially always will be dead content at some point.