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I am not the Commander and I don't want to be


Aridon.8362

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even
in
the military hierarchy anymore. We
aren't
the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:It's true that Aurene get a role in the fight end. I can hardly consider it relevant because she's not doing much. She's either chained, wandering, or enhancing our special button attack. She's entirely passive in the fight. I would consider her help if she also actually did something on her own and we would have to exploit the given opportunity. Having both her reacting and us reacting to her.

She provides you with protection preventing Balthazar from one-shotting you. She's the support, not DPS.

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Military rank titles often still carry over after retirement even in real life but it is up to people if they wish to still address them by their military rank for their own reasons. Since our character last military title was Commander before retiring to become the leader of Dragon's Watch, we are still called Commander not just out of respect for what we did but also because it is our last known military rank in the Pact.

We may not be official Commander of the pact anymore since the events of Zhaitan's defeat but by military standards we are still ranked commander even after retirement.

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@"bluecheeseplate.2753" said:This is my issue with most MMOs I've played. Apparently I can defeat gods, quest for thousands of people and literally save the world four times, but people don't even acknowledge my existence. There's a massive disconnect there that doesn't sit well with me lore-wise, like I'm investing all this time for nothing. GW2 and BnS are the only two MMOs I've played that subverts this, and GW2 does a far better job of it. As the Commander, I actually feel like I'm not just along for the ride- my character's actions has an impact on the story, and are remembered for once.

The problem isn't what the NPCs call you, the problem is that you save the world four times at all. You get into some sort of narrative power creep that eventually ceases to be interesting. You've saved the world four times over and you've defeated demigods and then you accidentally stumble off a cliff in Kessex Hills and die. Is that not also a narrative disconnect? Or what if you happened to get shanked by some no-name pirate? Of course, we don't take death into account when thinking about narrative. If we did, would it really be fair to say that you killed Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds if Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds killed you fourteen times over before you killed him?

I'm rambling, but the point of my ramble is to poke fun at the notion of a linear narrative in an MMORPG space. In the absence of a pre-scripted narrative players starts to make their own narrative*. In my opinion, you shouldn't be so concerned about how NPCs addresses you. How do your fellow players address you? Back in 2007-2008 I played World of Warcraft and on my server there was a horde guild that was notorious for ganking people. They had a website where they posted bounties on alliance players they deemed troublesome, and these alliance players earned some fame on the server just because of that. Those players didn't need an NPC to tell them that they were heroes for they were heroes in the eyes of everyone who had fallen prey to that one ganking guild.

Do we really need the narrative threat of an apocalypse in order to keep things interesting? That's just subtext to justify the violence we use to solve the conflict, but you can have subtext that doesn't revolve around the end of the world. Perhaps people ought to see themselves less as the main character and more as "one among many". Sure, you defeated Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds, but what about the other individuals present, be they players or NPCs. Are they not also worthy of praise? No one mourns the loss of a redshirt, I guess.

*Of course, players will probably create their own narrative even when presented with a pre-scripted narrative. The difference is that you have to suspend your disbelief, for the narrative that the game feeds you with is not truly your narrative. Everyone gets the same narrative, and it might not be the narrative that you want. The original story of GW2 is all about good versus evil and it's more or less impossible to be evil. Does that really match the fantasy of the necromancer class?

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@Aridon.8362 said:At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

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@Fjaeldmark.9043 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.

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@Kathkere.3068 said:(...) would it really be fair to say that you killed Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds if Belsebub the Destroyer of Worlds killed you fourteen times over before you killed him?

The Commander has the supreme power of rewriting history and silencing the rumors over his failures. The Commander is a disguised god learning to be a mere mortal. Few NPCs have seen through the trick - yet. One day, they will build temples to our glory and call us the Almighty [insert character name].

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.Actually, Trahearne was not really that much of a messianic figure. There was no prophecy, just a plan the Tree had. And the original plan even failed - Trahearne wasn't even supposed to be in that position, Riannoc was. Trahearne was just the backup. Even that glimpse of a possible future the Tree showed us in the vision of Orr in the end never actually happened that way. The storytelling throughout the Orr arc was awfully rushed, though, so it made little sense how he got to have this ritual ready in time. However, it was not magically handed to him (I guess), but the result of decades of work.

The messianic and prophecy stuff got much, much worse later on with Aurene and the PC. Though the storytelling improved a lot over time, I still prefer the way "prophecies" were handled earlier: As very fragile optional futures that can easily change. Not something that gives us plot armour and has to be followed no matter what.And just when I thought we were finally done with prophecies, they make one up for Braham... :/ Can't we do anything in this story without a prophecy anymore?

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@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:At the very least they could have Rox, or Braham or even Taimi be the main hero. The spotlight is burning the commanders forehead by now. Anyone from Dragon's Watch really has the power to be the main hero.

Remember when Trahearne outranked the player and people kept crying for him to die for stealing the player's spotlight so Anet killed him off? Lets not repeat that.

My dislike for Trahearne doesn't come from him being the leader. It's also true for some of the people who wanted him to die.The main thing people hate on Trahearne is that he's been written as a messianic figure.The chosen one who got the magic sword and only him can save us by purifying the source of corruption.And then the Zhaitan fight is a glorified fireworks show.

I never wanted for us to become the messianic figure. I hate it just as well.Actually, Trahearne was not really that much of a messianic figure. There was no prophecy, just a plan the Tree had. And the original plan even failed - Trahearne wasn't even supposed to be in that position, Riannoc was. Trahearne was just the backup. Even that glimpse of a possible future the Tree showed us in the vision of Orr in the end never actually happened that way. The storytelling throughout the Orr arc was awfully rushed, though, so it made little sense how he got to have this ritual ready in time. However, it was not magically handed to him (I guess), but the result of decades of work.

The messianic and prophecy stuff got much, much worse later on with Aurene and the PC. Though the storytelling improved a lot over time, I still prefer the way "prophecies" were handled earlier: As very fragile optional futures that can easily change. Not something that gives us plot armour and has to be followed no matter what.And just when I thought we were finally done with prophecies, they make one up for Braham... :/ Can't we do anything in this story without a prophecy anymore?

It's an excuse to blatantly railroad the story and justify having no agency for your character.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even
in
the military hierarchy anymore. We
aren't
the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

2 Dragons technically.Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

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@"Kathkere.3068" said:Do we really need the narrative threat of an apocalypse in order to keep things interesting?

Sure, otherwise my commander would be all.. "Eh not my problem, let someone else deal with it.. I other things to do"

Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.Anet is trying to make things more interesting with Jormag and Kralkatorrik, filling in the personalities of these Dragons and making the plot more complex than just smash the big evil thing.They deserve some credit for that.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even
in
the military hierarchy anymore. We
aren't
the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

2 Dragons technically.Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

I guess I didn't mention Kralk but yes, people forget how powerful Sohothin is supposed to be just because Rytlock doesn't know how to use its full potential. We get turned into a walking nuke for the mission.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.

But then you get into a loop of never ending apocalypses; the "narrative power creep" I mentioned. I think it's very much possible to "reset" the narrative. World of Warcraft did as much with their Mists of Pandaria expansion. You had just defeated Deathwing The Destroyer and what followed was a story about Horde and Alliance colonization in a mystical new land. I thought it was a very refreshing change of pace, although that expansion would derail a bit as well towards the end as well.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance.

that's literally the current situation. The Pact Commander isn't the highest - they're below the Marshal, and on par to dozens of others in ranking. And as of Season 3, it's a title and nothing more, we're not even
in
the military hierarchy anymore. We
aren't
the "topest dog" who is practically a god among mere mortals. All of the Commander's deeds are done through teamwork, either with other heroes or with a freakin' dragon.

All except when we 1v1 Balthazar :(I would have preferred for him to have been injured a bit by Kralkatorrik before our arrival to justify our win.

We had a dragon help us in the final confrontation, and Sohothin being used to its real potential.

2 Dragons technically.Kralkatorrik also got involved in the battle though he fired at everyone not just Balth.

We also had Sohothin too which despite personal use or not in the canon the Commander used it to kill Balthazar.

So while we do get the credit for the kill we did have a lot of help in that fight from friend and foe alike.

I guess I didn't mention Kralk but yes, people forget how powerful Sohothin is supposed to be just because Rytlock doesn't know how to use its full potential. We get turned into a walking nuke for the mission.

Yeah we did ha xDWas fun though.

Sohothin is majorly powerful, It was one of Balthazars personal swords long ago.When Rytlock first obtained it too he became a vicious and feared enemy to the Flame Legion because of it, So I wouldn't say he doesn't know how to use it's full potential.. I think he's just chilled out somewhat over the years we've known him, Bangar hinted as much up during that cutscene where Rytlock kicks his ***"Look who's fangs finally came in" he says to Rytlock before egging him on to kill him and become imperator.It's pretty noticable too if you play the early story content in the game and compare Rytlock then to who he is now.. he's changed a lot since the start of Gw2.

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@Kathkere.3068 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Gw2 was always setup as an apocalypse story, Evil dragons end of the world etc.You can't just wipe that mid way and say eh lets do something else.. wouldn't make any sense.

But then you get into a loop of never ending apocalypses; the "narrative power creep" I mentioned. I think it's very much possible to "reset" the narrative. World of Warcraft did as much with their Mists of Pandaria expansion. You had just defeated Deathwing The Destroyer and what followed was a story about Horde and Alliance colonization in a mystical new land. I thought it was a very refreshing change of pace, although that expansion would derail a bit as well towards the end as well.

Not really, the apocalypse threat has always been the same with the Dragons, Usually though we wait until a Dragon forces our hand to action.Zhaitan forced the formation of the pact and invasion into orr by progressing his territory into Kryta and raiding human settlements.Mordremoth forced priority by assaulting various targets around core Tyria and attacking the Waypoint Network.Kralkatorrik forced our hand again by hunting Aurine and branding his way through Elona, then invading the mists and casusing massive amounts of damage there.Now we're dealing with Jormag who again forced our attention with it's actions in the North.

The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.

Elements may change as do villains but our players goal since joining an order has always been to stop the world ending threat.We havent achieved that goal at any time in Gw2.. we've just delayed it temporarily.I wouldn't call it a loop of apocalypse stories.. it's more like one very long one with some twists and turns thrown in.

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@Teratus.2859 said:The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.Even that wasn't really pre-emptive. We only focused on Primordus and Jormag after learning they had become active again, as a result of Mordremoth's death. Kralkatorrik was still supposedly silent so we didn't focus on him at the time.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:The only time we've ever gone after a Dragon/Dragons in a pre-emptive move was during living world 3 and that ended up getting botched after learning that killing them would have destroyed the world and done the one thing we were trying to avoid, and then Balthazar came in and force our attention on him instead.Even that wasn't really pre-emptive. We only focused on Primordus and Jormag after learning they had become active again, as a result of Mordremoth's death. Kralkatorrik was still supposedly silent so we didn't focus on him at the time.

True, although their activity was not really felt much compared to Mordremoth or Zhaitan..Outside of Destroyers trying to go after Aurine they weren't really any more of a problem than they always have been in Gw2.Most of what we've seen of them in living world has been due to us persuing something into their territory rather than them attacking us.

Outside of Sea Dragons minions Destroyers are probably the most underused Dragon Minion in the game so far, not that I find that something to complain about.I don't mind waiting and having Primordus be that last and most epic Dragon we take down.He was the first dragon we had dealings with back in Gw1 that finished up Gw1's story (unless you want to count Svanir which I don't tbh due to him being a single representation of Jormag and more of a side story antagonist than a main plot one, even then we encountered Destroyers first anyway)It would be kind of fitting if he were the last dragon we deal with in Gw2 to tie up Gw2's Elder Dragon story too.

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@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

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@Westenev.5289 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

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@Dustfinger.9510 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Because ArenaNet can't make the story branches in different directions based on our decisions, I would prefer for the commander to be a NPC that we follow as his crew. It always feel weird to be both told we're in charge when we mostly follow what other NPC tell us to do.

Im okay with this. It tells us we are pretty high up, just not the highest up. It feels like a good balance. I'd rather not be a god amongst mortals and I understand people want to feel important in the story. This seems like a good balance. When we are always the top-most dog, we run into problems later on about why we didn't just easily slay the next big bad after having done it multiple times before. Then the writers have to keep making the next big bad exponentially bigger and badder than the last until it gets ridiculous.

edit: (I know from your post that being the toppest dog is not what you're asking for. I'm like you, I'd rather be as small as possible becasue it makes the world as big as possible. but, a lot of people like to feel like they are important in their stories.)

The problem is that we are top dog, which is why Bangar keeps having to try and keep us in check. I mean, we're the defacto leader of the pact nobody will question (even Almorrah or Logan), slayer of 3 Elder Dragons, Slayer of gods, and have the favour of a certain Elder dragon. If the commander willed it, they could easily topple a government or five - a power we exercised to dethrone a certain lich god-king.

We aren't. We're just high up there. We didn't slay 3 elder dragons, we were involved in the slaying of 3 elder dragons. We lead a group of heroes who have repeatedly shown that they have other priorities other than the group we lead. And often leave group business to handle what must be more important to them. i.e.: Logan wouldn't help topple his queen. You're taking examples of being high up and using it to extrapolate an illogical extreme.

That's how legends are born.

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