My Take on the Unfun Nature of Condition Damage and Crowd Control

Inguz.6493 · April 22, 2020

It's no hyperbole to say that after some team fights where you last for a while but die, the top damage dealing condition could stack up to 50-60k. Likewise, chains of crowd control that makes you lose control of your character in situations where you cannot break out of it mean that you are helpless to any incoming damage. Both condition damage and crowd control does something unfun, they make you passive to their effects and remove player agency unless cleaned or broken. Comparatively, active damage does not remove player agency as it can be avoided.

That's the core issue that I and many others have in the current state of PvP, both condition damage and crowd control are run because of their effectiveness in dealing damage or setting up damage, not necessarily because they are top tier. Dishing out condition damage and crowd control is usually low effort but high yield. More active playstyles are thus not quite as appealing as they demand more from the player and that they are in a constant struggle with downing the enemy despite their agency.

Player agency is important because once you've run out of cleanses and stun breaks there's nothing that you can do about the situation that you are in. There's no possible clever outplay to dying to high condition damage or chains of crowd control. Once locked down, you're done for. Without agency, enjoyment is sapped out of the game mode.

It would be interesting to see win rates for condition heavy professions or elite specializations, but that's not what's truly important. The conquest mode is partially in an unfun state because of passive damage dealing effects and effects that remove all control from your character. Neither feels good to lose to and neither it feels like you could have played differently in order to have been victorious.

Player rating, skill, or what have you does not matter. This affects all aspects of player versus player at the moment, and we all feel its effect as it's a solid strategy right now. I'm not going to suggest any solutions, only state my issue with the current state of PvP. I think there should be room for condition damage and crowd control, too, just not be as rampant as it is now.

pninak.1069 · April 22, 2020

I think you see it the wrong way. every player is pretty much forced to take condi-cleanse aswell as stunbreakers with them. Condis seem pretty frequent in pvp however most dmg is still done by power builds. Overall condi has many more ways of mitigation than power has. I agree that the spam of condis and cc is a hard to look through. The speed of the game is fairly slow imo. I think the unfun aspect of pvp mostly comes from the fact that we got conquest mode only. stronghold isn't liked and all the other maps that once have been in a good shape regarding their mechanics got nerfed to the ground. Skyhammer used to be my favourite map. But right it now it is pretty generic. you can't use the environment to your advantage as you used to. Meanwhile maps like battle of kylo are hotspots for longrange professions that don't really have to worry about their positioning at all.

For me conquest is more about capturing points than fighting against the enemy team. rest is mass dynamics. once you got two points the chance to win the next fights are very high, because enemy team is forced to split and it is too ez to go to other capture points when you are in the middle.

AliamRationem.5172 · April 22, 2020

@"Inguz.6493" said:Both condition damage and crowd control does something unfun, they make you passive to their effects and remove player agency unless cleaned or broken. Comparatively, active damage does not remove player agency as it can be avoided.

How do you manage to claim that conditions "remove player agency" in the same breath you acknowledge the role of cleansing? Are you not able to dodge condition application the same way you can power damage? Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.

Yes, when you die in large engagements condition damage may contribute the lion's share, but it is the burst damage that killed you. Taking 1k damage per second for 2 minutes might look impressive on the stat readout when it is all attributed to "burning", but that ignores the fact that you probably died after 2 minutes only due to spike damage that had nothing to do with how much damage you took for the rest of that period.

Tycura.1982 · April 23, 2020

Oh yeah burn guard has terrible damage rn. Like don't even pick it up. Especially don't use Sword of Justice and Ring of Flame. Just no damage there. Nope.

Paradoxoglanis.1904 · April 23, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.

I think this is the main complaint most people have regarding condition damage. It often feels too passive and too powerful when you get hit with a condi burst because you are supposed to be able to cleanse if you miss a dodge or dont have your heal up. Its not just application, but cleansing is often instant or passive, which just adds to the feeling of being overpowered. I think this is kind of the point the OP was getting at, where both application and cleansing feel too powerful. If you dont have a cleanse, getting hit with a simple condi burst can feel like a cheap 1 shot.

AliamRationem.5172 · April 23, 2020

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.

I think this is the main complaint most people have regarding condition damage. It often feels too passive and too powerful when you get hit with a condi burst because you are supposed to be able to cleanse if you miss a dodge or dont have your heal up. Its not just application, but cleansing is often instant or passive, which just adds to the feeling of being overpowered. I think this is kind of the point the OP was getting at, where both application and cleansing feel too powerful. If you dont have a cleanse, getting hit with a simple condi burst can feel like a cheap 1 shot.

Maybe. I think there's a chance we run the risk of repeating the mistake we made with the changes to CC. I believe they thought that taking away passive defense would make CC feel more impactful. Yes and no. While CC definitely has more impact, it's because it's so ubiquitous! With no passive defense we have a ping-pong meta where players can't slot enough defense to realistically prevent chain CC. Most people don't find this an improvement to the feel of combat and I don't think it's quite what they were going for.

No more 1-shot deaths. Instead you die in 5 seconds. You just can't move or fight back during that time. Improvement?

I feel there's a similar scenario here. For example, what would it feel like if cleanses were very limited, more the way stunbreaks and stability are? Condition application would obviously be limited as well, such that winning with condi involves not so much bombarding enemy players with constant condition application, but exhausting their limited defenses, then setting up a burst application that they can't cleanse. This is likely more similar in feel to the 1-shot power builds in that the player is helpless to change the outcome. They are already dead and because their limited cleanses were their only way to change that outcome, it feels like a cheap death.

I just don't see that this sort of thing will necessarily improve the feel of combat. I think players will still complain that condi does not feel good to play against. I also think this is really just a power meta and the tendency of players to skimp on condi defense starts to make condi more of a threat to the builds most susceptible to it to begin with.

I'm still in the camp of tweaking the things that need tweaking (i.e. individual builds/skills) rather than reinventing the wheel. I think condi is fine.

Teb.6980 · April 23, 2020

As an engi main, I have 1 second of stability every 40, and this is exactly the same skill as my only CC-break.

In the face of 40-60k fire or torment/poison bursts chained with three 2-second disables that most classes can dish out, I feel pretty obsolete in the current meta lol

Vancho.8750 · April 26, 2020

The biggest issue for conditions that they come in multiples from unknown sources and passives and getting tagged a little gets you cced by lets say cripple and after that it keeps rolling.There is not really dodge this move away from that like power, you get hit by maul you get a lot of damage you are careful around it, someone drops pulsing circle of conditions on your head you barely move away with the cc on you but they guy is standing there plinking you from range with other conditions.Conditions end up in the "you have to dodge everything" place or be at huge range so they can't tag you.There is also no punish for spamming conditions, the transfer condition abilities return them by taking the condition stat of the afflicted and not the spammer so returning them doesn't really punish them, so if you wana counter conditions with that you have to be condition damage dealer yourself.There is not much repercussion for spamming condi abilities.

AliamRationem.5172 · April 26, 2020

@"Vancho.8750" said:The biggest issue for conditions that they come in multiples from unknown sources and passives and getting tagged a little gets you cced by lets say cripple and after that it keeps rolling.There is not really dodge this move away from that like power, you get hit by maul you get a lot of damage you are careful around it, someone drops pulsing circle of conditions on your head you barely move away with the cc on you but they guy is standing there plinking you from range with other conditions.Conditions end up in the "you have to dodge everything" place or be at huge range so they can't tag you.There is also no punish for spamming conditions, the transfer condition abilities return them by taking the condition stat of the afflicted and not the spammer so returning them doesn't really punish them, so if you wana counter conditions with that you have to be condition damage dealer yourself.There is not much repercussion for spamming condi abilities.

There shouldn't be repercussions for "spamming" conditions. You have to spam them because cleansing exists. If power attacks could have their damage removed after the fact, you'd have to spam those, too! You have counterplay here. That red circle would be a red circle if it were power based. Seriously, stop complaining about condi and slot a little cleanse. It's a power meta!

Vancho.8750 · April 26, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@"Vancho.8750" said:The biggest issue for conditions that they come in multiples from unknown sources and passives and getting tagged a little gets you cced by lets say cripple and after that it keeps rolling.There is not really dodge this move away from that like power, you get hit by maul you get a lot of damage you are careful around it, someone drops pulsing circle of conditions on your head you barely move away with the cc on you but they guy is standing there plinking you from range with other conditions.Conditions end up in the "you have to dodge everything" place or be at huge range so they can't tag you.There is also no punish for spamming conditions, the transfer condition abilities return them by taking the condition stat of the afflicted and not the spammer so returning them doesn't really punish them, so if you wana counter conditions with that you have to be condition damage dealer yourself.There is not much repercussion for spamming condi abilities.

There shouldn't be repercussions for "spamming" conditions. You have to spam them because cleansing exists. If power attacks could have their damage removed after the fact, you'd have to spam those, too! You have counterplay here. That red circle would be a red circle if it were power based. Seriously, stop complaining about condi and slot a little cleanse. It's a power meta!Lol i have all the cleanse and even opted to put rune that cleanse, and i don't think we are in power meta when i have to put all the cleanses i can put so can move, last season meta was power, this is some bullshit slog bunker meta with shit ton of conditions. When i press a button with im expected to hit with it to do damage not miss but since it ticks i get hits or i miss and my next attack applies the damage anyway.

UNOwen.7132 · April 26, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.

I think this is the main complaint most people have regarding condition damage. It often feels too passive and too powerful when you get hit with a condi burst because you are supposed to be able to cleanse if you miss a dodge or dont have your heal up. Its not just application, but cleansing is often instant or passive, which just adds to the feeling of being overpowered. I think this is kind of the point the OP was getting at, where both application and cleansing feel too powerful. If you dont have a cleanse, getting hit with a simple condi burst can feel like a cheap 1 shot.

Maybe. I think there's a chance we run the risk of repeating the mistake we made with the changes to CC. I believe they thought that taking away passive defense would make CC feel more impactful. Yes and no. While CC definitely has more impact, it's because it's so ubiquitous! With no passive defense we have a ping-pong meta where players can't slot enough defense to realistically prevent chain CC. Most people don't find this an improvement to the feel of combat and I don't think it's quite what they were going for.

No more 1-shot deaths. Instead you die in 5 seconds. You just can't move or fight back during that time. Improvement?

I feel there's a similar scenario here. For example, what would it feel like if cleanses were very limited, more the way stunbreaks and stability are? Condition application would obviously be limited as well, such that winning with condi involves not so much bombarding enemy players with constant condition application, but exhausting their limited defenses, then setting up a burst application that they can't cleanse. This is likely more similar in feel to the 1-shot power builds in that the player is helpless to change the outcome. They are already dead and because their limited cleanses were their only way to change that outcome, it feels like a cheap death.

I just don't see that this sort of thing will necessarily improve the feel of combat. I think players will still complain that condi does not feel good to play against. I also think this is really just a power meta and the tendency of players to skimp on condi defense starts to make condi more of a threat to the builds most susceptible to it to begin with.

I'm still in the camp of tweaking the things that need tweaking (i.e. individual builds/skills) rather than reinventing the wheel. I think condi is fine.

The problem is condi cleanses alltogether. They make conditions incredibly binary. Make cleanses only cleanse debilitating conditions (Cripple, weakness, chill, etc.) and then retune conditions around that (reduce or remove passive procs, and make condi application equally telegraphed for the same damage), and it should be fine.

ollbirtan.2915 · April 26, 2020

Oh look - another 'just dodge' thread :/

XECOR.2814 · April 26, 2020

Other than burning itself, condi deadeye and condi rev, condis are not a problem. There are too many cc's on some classes atm. If you remove 1 cc from all these builds it will be much better.

Vancho.8750 · April 26, 2020

@XECOR.2814 said:Other than burning itself, condi deadeye and condi rev, condis are not a problem. There are too many cc's on some classes atm. If you remove 1 cc from all these builds it will be much better.Most of the issue comes with the cc conditions anyway you get burn but also cripple weakness, immobilize, chill, slow, vulnerability. Cripple is probably the condition that kills the most people anyway.

AliamRationem.5172 · April 26, 2020

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.

I think this is the main complaint most people have regarding condition damage. It often feels too passive and too powerful when you get hit with a condi burst because you are supposed to be able to cleanse if you miss a dodge or dont have your heal up. Its not just application, but cleansing is often instant or passive, which just adds to the feeling of being overpowered. I think this is kind of the point the OP was getting at, where both application and cleansing feel too powerful. If you dont have a cleanse, getting hit with a simple condi burst can feel like a cheap 1 shot.

Maybe. I think there's a chance we run the risk of repeating the mistake we made with the changes to CC. I believe they thought that taking away passive defense would make CC feel more impactful. Yes and no. While CC definitely has more impact, it's because it's so ubiquitous! With no passive defense we have a ping-pong meta where players can't slot enough defense to realistically prevent chain CC. Most people don't find this an improvement to the feel of combat and I don't think it's quite what they were going for.

No more 1-shot deaths. Instead you die in 5 seconds. You just can't move or fight back during that time. Improvement?

I feel there's a similar scenario here. For example, what would it feel like if cleanses were very limited, more the way stunbreaks and stability are? Condition application would obviously be limited as well, such that winning with condi involves not so much bombarding enemy players with constant condition application, but exhausting their limited defenses, then setting up a burst application that they can't cleanse. This is likely more similar in feel to the 1-shot power builds in that the player is helpless to change the outcome. They are already dead and because their limited cleanses were their only way to change that outcome, it feels like a cheap death.

I just don't see that this sort of thing will necessarily improve the feel of combat. I think players will still complain that condi does not feel good to play against. I also think this is really just a power meta and the tendency of players to skimp on condi defense starts to make condi more of a threat to the builds most susceptible to it to begin with.

I'm still in the camp of tweaking the things that need tweaking (i.e. individual builds/skills) rather than reinventing the wheel. I think condi is fine.

The problem is condi cleanses alltogether. They make conditions incredibly binary. Make cleanses only cleanse debilitating conditions (Cripple, weakness, chill, etc.) and then retune conditions around that (reduce or remove passive procs, and make condi application equally telegraphed for the same damage), and it should be fine.

No, it won't be fine. Players like to feel they have some control over the outcome. Removing cleansing removes that control. Now you just die once you have too many conditions on you. You think that's what players want? And you want to overhaul everything to do it? I think it's a terrible idea. Condi is fine. Stay the course. Tweak what needs to be tweaked.

UNOwen.7132 · April 26, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:Yes, there are generally more sources of condition application and they are often more passive, but that's because it is assumed that a significant portion of the applied damage will be cleansed.