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The Death of Thief


darren.1064

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

a) Theres is a thing called stream snipe . Where theres a guy that shoutout/streams each person/team and the class they play . So the majority knows what is going on in the final 6 roundsb) They are pros , they surely have anticipated the Heavy Condition meta ? Or there isn't at high lvl ? Or mobility+Condition is the issue ?

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

a) Theres is a thing called stream snipe . Where theres a guy that shoutout/streams each person/team and the class they play . So the majority knows what is going on in the final 6 rounds

And yet they came unprepared. We can debate about the why as we please, I dont think it matters. The fact is, they clearly werent prepared.

b) They are pros , they surely have anticipated the Heavy Condition meta ? Or there isn't at high lvl ? Or mobility+Condition is the issue ?

There are certain builds that have condi-cleanses to a ludicrous degree. Those were the meta. So in response the meta was largely power. Meaning people then cut the condi-cleansers. Its a circle, they were just ahead of the curve.

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@darren.1064 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

It absolutely does, its not even close. It only doesnt if you include "running away" as survivability. But thats frankly nonsense. Outside of that, thief has less passive and active sustain, less active defenses (their blinds are outclassed by engineer who also has invulnerability, reflect and up to 2 blocks), and nothing really to make up for it.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

nope you can change class midgame

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

nope you can change class midgame

Did they change that? That used to not be possible.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

nope you can change class midgame

Did they change that? That used to not be possible.

are you on gw2 forums literally 24/7? bcs that was an extremely quick answer.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

It absolutely does, its not even close. It only doesnt if you include "running away" as survivability. But thats frankly nonsense. Outside of that, thief has less passive and active sustain, less active defenses (their blinds are outclassed by engineer who also has invulnerability, reflect and up to 2 blocks), and nothing really to make up for it.

You are either able to run away or you must stay and soak up dmg, both methods will allow the player to survive. If you can't run away or soak up dmg there would be no much point in even and that's where the idea of balance kicks in.

Either way, from what I could gather...thieves want the burst and mobility to be a serious threat and ofc other professions want to play the game so what are the solutions?You always have the initiative on thief, if you deal so much dmg that the enemy can't respond..it would be broken, if the enemy hasn't got the sustain to recover after the dmg...it would be just as broken.

If you ask for other to have enough dmg to "punish" thief when he gets close..well are we forgetting that thief always get to jump on you first? If you trade sustain for dmg on other professions while not having the innate survival tools of thief, you will end up losing all the times.

I am kinda of confused...what exactly are you asking?

-If a thief faces the burst spec of another profession then it should win easy, that's the nature of thief ofc-If a thief faces a bruiser then it should face a 40/60 chance of victory in favor of the other profession-If a thief faces a bunker than it should not die in 1vs1 and only win with a +1

If you think differently, then try to explain

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz

Its irrelevant. It shows
nothing
of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.

The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .

Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.

Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .They are pros , they know how to adapt

You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.

You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)

Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.

nope you can change class midgame

Did they change that? That used to not be possible.

are you on gw2 forums literally 24/7? bcs that was an extremely quick answer.

I had a loading screen on the game Im playing, might as well be here while waiting.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

It absolutely does, its not even close. It only doesnt if you include "running away" as survivability. But thats frankly nonsense. Outside of that, thief has less passive and active sustain, less active defenses (their blinds are outclassed by engineer who also has invulnerability, reflect and up to 2 blocks), and nothing really to make up for it.

You are either able to run away or you must stay and soak up dmg, both methods will allow the player to survive. If you can't run away or soak up dmg there would be no much point in even and that's where the idea of balance kicks in.

Both allow you to survive, but only the latter is survivability. Because if we define the former as survivability, then afking in base is the best method for survivability, and all classes are perfectly balanced.

Either way, from what I could gather...thieves want the burst and mobility to be a serious threat and ofc other professions want to play the game so what are the solutions?You always have the initiative on thief, if you deal so much dmg that the enemy can't respond..it would be broken, if the enemy hasn't got the sustain to recover after the dmg...it would be just as broken.

I mean "serious threat" in this case means "when the thief +1s, they actually do something other than waste time". Thats the issue with the situation right now. I do agree that thief being a strong duelist, and thief having shortbow 5 is incompatible though. That causes problems in sPvP.

If you ask for other to have enough dmg to "punish" thief when he gets close..well are we forgetting that thief always get to jump on you first? If you trade sustain for dmg on other professions while not having the innate survival tools of thief, you will end up losing all the times.

Thief doesnt really have innate survival tools compared to other classes. Their base stats are the second-worst, their healing pathetic, their active defenses bad and their passive defenses non-existant.

I am kinda of confused...what exactly are you asking?

-If a thief faces the burst spec of another profession then it should win easy, that's the nature of thief ofc-If a thief faces a bruiser then it should face a 40/60 chance of victory in favor of the other profession-If a thief faces a bunker than it should not die in 1vs1 and only win with a +1

That would be nice. In truth, however, right now its:-if a thief faces the brust spec of another profession, they lose most of the time unless its exactly condi mesmer because of consume plasma- if a thief faces a bruiser then they lose every time- if a thief faces a bunker then they die in a 1v1 if they stick around, and with a +1 they can sometimes kill the enemy bunker. And sometimes not.

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@darren.1064 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

I don't understand..you want to play an assassin right?! well an assassin is not a brawler at least not in a MMO. As far as I am concerned , the thief class should be specialized in +1 quick burst to create imbalances during fight and at the same time it should not have the sustain to last in a fight against a spec made for sustain, a burst class like thief should have an assassin spec and a duellist spec ( possibly a support spec ) , the assassin spec superior to other class while the duellist spec inferior to other classes, the difference between a duellist and assassin spec would be the lack of extreme mobility/disengage in first case compared to the latter

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I was thinking more passive healing, blocks, barriers and the like. Damage reduction only works if its not usually inactive and if you can make use of it via healing or barrier application. Thief cannot.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

I don't understand..you want to play an assassin right?! well an assassin is not a brawler at least not in a MMO. As far as I am concerned , the thief class should be specialized in +1 quick burst to create imbalances during fight and at the same time it should not have the sustain to last in a fight against a spec made for sustain, a burst class like thief should have an assassin spec and a duellist spec ( possibly a support spec ) , the assassin spec superior to other class while the duellist spec inferior to other classes, the difference between a duellist and assassin spec would be the lack of extreme mobility/disengage in first case compared to the latter

An assassin oneshots, or at least quickly kills, a target. Thief obviously cant do that. And its probably a good thing that it cant, assassins are not really good design. So thief doesnt have the burst to be able to kill someone before their lack of survivability kicks in. So they kinda need it to survive. Or they would, if thieves were to actually fight. But thief doesnt really fight. They +1 and run away as soon as anyone turns around. Sadly, Shortbow 5 mandates that. Still, the problem right now is that even +1ing is ineffective since thief damage is pathetic even by thief standards, and general tankiness went way up.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

Its not entirely irrelevant .

It is
entirely
irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

I don't understand..you want to play an assassin right?! well an assassin is not a brawler at least not in a MMO. As far as I am concerned , the thief class should be specialized in +1 quick burst to create imbalances during fight and at the same time it should not have the sustain to last in a fight against a spec made for sustain, a burst class like thief should have an assassin spec and a duellist spec ( possibly a support spec ) , the assassin spec superior to other class while the duellist spec inferior to other classes, the difference between a duellist and assassin spec would be the lack of extreme mobility/disengage in first case compared to the latter

Please read my initial post that began this entire conversation. Then come back

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

UNOwen, pull up my history as evidence with main Thief Profession Players who knows me well enough. I've been calling out for Thief Profession to be redesigned and speaking the honest Truth that nerfing them will not change anything and i use History to prove just that.

Im well aware of your history. Your bias, your irrational hatred of thief, and the fact that despite how much you obsess with the class, you dont seem to care to research anything about it.

I realized that nerfing Thief Profession will do more hard than good to the player experience

Ill believe that when pigs fly.

I do support other Thief Profession constructive suggestions as to how put Thief back into line, being a healthy competitive Profession. Why not? I Same way that i am very Passionate about Necromancer and Mesmer Profession, they deserve that same chance.

Please. You want to remove anything thief has without compensation. Your idea of a "healthy" thief is a useless thief.

My suggestions as the way they have always been before (look up my history), is for Anet to deal with the core root problems than everything else will follow.

Im aware of your suggestions. They fix "core problems" that arent problems, and are almost all terrible suggestions to the point where I question if youve ever played a
single
game of thief.

Why do we constantly have to deal with the same repetitive problems from 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 years ago? That is the key!!

We dont. I mean I guess sometimes a problem repeats, bunker builds, Necro being unkillable, things like that. But for the most part, we get new troubles.

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us learn, improve and to prevent past problems from surfing again?

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us decrease Toxicity and to hopefully remove it all together?

Shouldn't History be used to create new growth, new ideas with new visions?

Big talk for someone who doesnt learn from history.

This is what i stand for and this is what i continue to address without sugar-coating the Truth

You dont
care
for the truth. If you cared for the truth you wouldnt constantly spam misleading videos and make grandious essays that obfuscate the fact that youre talking utter nonsense.

Thief Profession should've been in much healthier state with having new designs with new improvisation and it deserves it including its passionate players.

Thief doesnt need a redesign. Thief doesnt even really need any changes. Out of combat stealth does, but thief is far from the only culprit there (your beloved Mesmer for a long time was a bigger problem there).

I've always said this, i Sympathize Thief Profession for being solely designed as Toxic,to do harm, wrong than good. I've always stood by Thief Profession players in game and defend them against other Toxic Professions (see my recent history experiences) because it is not their fault, they don't deserve to be treated unfairly.

"Toxic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means. Thief was not designed to be "toxic". It was designed to represent the tricky, underhanded approach. They achieve what other classes achieve by indirect methods. Indirect defense, indirect offense, yadda yadda. There are only 2 problems that came to be with thief. Out of combat stealth, but again, thats a general problem. And in sPvP exclusively, Shortbow 5. It gave Thief unparalleled mobility. And if thief has both that and is the best duelist, things break. But you never talk about shortbow 5. No you talk about actively
bad
things like in-combat stealth and other such nonsense.

Designing a Profession to do Toxicity bidding is wrong because Thief Profession are worth more than that....it is part of the team.

Intentionally designing a (Judas complex) Profession just for financial mean and with other mean, is cruel at the most. Which is why i will not remain silent until Thief Profession is in a better place

Please, the "better place" you envision for thief is in the trash.

You are freely entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to make my own case and continue to stand by it since beta.

Thank You! for reading

-Burnfall-

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

UNOwen, pull up my history as evidence with main Thief Profession Players who knows me well enough. I've been calling out for Thief Profession to be redesigned and speaking the honest Truth that nerfing them will not change anything and i use History to prove just that.

Im well aware of your history. Your bias, your irrational hatred of thief, and the fact that despite how much you obsess with the class, you dont seem to care to research anything about it.

I realized that nerfing Thief Profession will do more hard than good to the player experience

Ill believe that when pigs fly.

I do support other Thief Profession constructive suggestions as to how put Thief back into line, being a healthy competitive Profession. Why not? I Same way that i am very Passionate about Necromancer and Mesmer Profession, they deserve that same chance.

Please. You want to remove anything thief has without compensation. Your idea of a "healthy" thief is a useless thief.

My suggestions as the way they have always been before (look up my history), is for Anet to deal with the core root problems than everything else will follow.

Im aware of your suggestions. They fix "core problems" that arent problems, and are almost all terrible suggestions to the point where I question if youve ever played a
single
game of thief.

Why do we constantly have to deal with the same repetitive problems from 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 years ago? That is the key!!

We dont. I mean I guess sometimes a problem repeats, bunker builds, Necro being unkillable, things like that. But for the most part, we get new troubles.

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us learn, improve and to prevent past problems from surfing again?

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us decrease Toxicity and to hopefully remove it all together?

Shouldn't History be used to create new growth, new ideas with new visions?

Big talk for someone who doesnt learn from history.

This is what i stand for and this is what i continue to address without sugar-coating the Truth

You dont
care
for the truth. If you cared for the truth you wouldnt constantly spam misleading videos and make grandious essays that obfuscate the fact that youre talking utter nonsense.

Thief Profession should've been in much healthier state with having new designs with new improvisation and it deserves it including its passionate players.

Thief doesnt need a redesign. Thief doesnt even really need any changes. Out of combat stealth does, but thief is far from the only culprit there (your beloved Mesmer for a long time was a bigger problem there).

I've always said this, i Sympathize Thief Profession for being solely designed as Toxic,to do harm, wrong than good. I've always stood by Thief Profession players in game and defend them against other Toxic Professions (see my recent history experiences) because it is not their fault, they don't deserve to be treated unfairly.

"Toxic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means. Thief was not designed to be "toxic". It was designed to represent the tricky, underhanded approach. They achieve what other classes achieve by indirect methods. Indirect defense, indirect offense, yadda yadda. There are only 2 problems that came to be with thief. Out of combat stealth, but again, thats a general problem. And in sPvP exclusively, Shortbow 5. It gave Thief unparalleled mobility. And if thief has both that and is the best duelist, things break. But you never talk about shortbow 5. No you talk about actively
bad
things like in-combat stealth and other such nonsense.

Designing a Profession to do Toxicity bidding is wrong because Thief Profession are worth more than that....it is part of the team.

Intentionally designing a (Judas complex) Profession just for financial mean and with other mean, is cruel at the most. Which is why i will not remain silent until Thief Profession is in a better place

Please, the "better place" you envision for thief is in the trash.

You are freely entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to make my own case and continue to stand by it since beta.

Thank You! for reading

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

UNOwen, pull up my history as evidence with main Thief Profession Players who knows me well enough. I've been calling out for Thief Profession to be redesigned and speaking the honest Truth that nerfing them will not change anything and i use History to prove just that.

Im well aware of your history. Your bias, your irrational hatred of thief, and the fact that despite how much you obsess with the class, you dont seem to care to research anything about it.

I realized that nerfing Thief Profession will do more hard than good to the player experience

Ill believe that when pigs fly.

I do support other Thief Profession constructive suggestions as to how put Thief back into line, being a healthy competitive Profession. Why not? I Same way that i am very Passionate about Necromancer and Mesmer Profession, they deserve that same chance.

Please. You want to remove anything thief has without compensation. Your idea of a "healthy" thief is a useless thief.

My suggestions as the way they have always been before (look up my history), is for Anet to deal with the core root problems than everything else will follow.

Im aware of your suggestions. They fix "core problems" that arent problems, and are almost all terrible suggestions to the point where I question if youve ever played a
single
game of thief.

Why do we constantly have to deal with the same repetitive problems from 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 years ago? That is the key!!

We dont. I mean I guess sometimes a problem repeats, bunker builds, Necro being unkillable, things like that. But for the most part, we get new troubles.

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us learn, improve and to prevent past problems from surfing again?

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us decrease Toxicity and to hopefully remove it all together?

Shouldn't History be used to create new growth, new ideas with new visions?

Big talk for someone who doesnt learn from history.

This is what i stand for and this is what i continue to address without sugar-coating the Truth

You dont
care
for the truth. If you cared for the truth you wouldnt constantly spam misleading videos and make grandious essays that obfuscate the fact that youre talking utter nonsense.

Thief Profession should've been in much healthier state with having new designs with new improvisation and it deserves it including its passionate players.

Thief doesnt need a redesign. Thief doesnt even really need any changes. Out of combat stealth does, but thief is far from the only culprit there (your beloved Mesmer for a long time was a bigger problem there).

I've always said this, i Sympathize Thief Profession for being solely designed as Toxic,to do harm, wrong than good. I've always stood by Thief Profession players in game and defend them against other Toxic Professions (see my recent history experiences) because it is not their fault, they don't deserve to be treated unfairly.

"Toxic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means. Thief was not designed to be "toxic". It was designed to represent the tricky, underhanded approach. They achieve what other classes achieve by indirect methods. Indirect defense, indirect offense, yadda yadda. There are only 2 problems that came to be with thief. Out of combat stealth, but again, thats a general problem. And in sPvP exclusively, Shortbow 5. It gave Thief unparalleled mobility. And if thief has both that and is the best duelist, things break. But you never talk about shortbow 5. No you talk about actively
bad
things like in-combat stealth and other such nonsense.

Designing a Profession to do Toxicity bidding is wrong because Thief Profession are worth more than that....it is part of the team.

Intentionally designing a (Judas complex) Profession just for financial mean and with other mean, is cruel at the most. Which is why i will not remain silent until Thief Profession is in a better place

Please, the "better place" you envision for thief is in the trash.

You are freely entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to make my own case and continue to stand by it since beta.

Thank You! for reading

Unfortunately, you are. So we will have to deal with you derailing conversations while contributing nothing useful. I will give you this tip though: Play thief. Just a couple times. You may learn something yet.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

UNOwen, pull up my history as evidence with main Thief Profession Players who knows me well enough. I've been calling out for Thief Profession to be redesigned and speaking the honest Truth that nerfing them will not change anything and i use History to prove just that.

Im well aware of your history. Your bias, your irrational hatred of thief, and the fact that despite how much you obsess with the class, you dont seem to care to research anything about it.

I realized that nerfing Thief Profession will do more hard than good to the player experience

Ill believe that when pigs fly.

I do support other Thief Profession constructive suggestions as to how put Thief back into line, being a healthy competitive Profession. Why not? I Same way that i am very Passionate about Necromancer and Mesmer Profession, they deserve that same chance.

Please. You want to remove anything thief has without compensation. Your idea of a "healthy" thief is a useless thief.

My suggestions as the way they have always been before (look up my history), is for Anet to deal with the core root problems than everything else will follow.

Im aware of your suggestions. They fix "core problems" that arent problems, and are almost all terrible suggestions to the point where I question if youve ever played a
single
game of thief.

Why do we constantly have to deal with the same repetitive problems from 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 years ago? That is the key!!

We dont. I mean I guess sometimes a problem repeats, bunker builds, Necro being unkillable, things like that. But for the most part, we get new troubles.

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us learn, improve and to prevent past problems from surfing again?

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us decrease Toxicity and to hopefully remove it all together?

Shouldn't History be used to create new growth, new ideas with new visions?

Big talk for someone who doesnt learn from history.

This is what i stand for and this is what i continue to address without sugar-coating the Truth

You dont
care
for the truth. If you cared for the truth you wouldnt constantly spam misleading videos and make grandious essays that obfuscate the fact that youre talking utter nonsense.

Thief Profession should've been in much healthier state with having new designs with new improvisation and it deserves it including its passionate players.

Thief doesnt need a redesign. Thief doesnt even really need any changes. Out of combat stealth does, but thief is far from the only culprit there (your beloved Mesmer for a long time was a bigger problem there).

I've always said this, i Sympathize Thief Profession for being solely designed as Toxic,to do harm, wrong than good. I've always stood by Thief Profession players in game and defend them against other Toxic Professions (see my recent history experiences) because it is not their fault, they don't deserve to be treated unfairly.

"Toxic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means. Thief was not designed to be "toxic". It was designed to represent the tricky, underhanded approach. They achieve what other classes achieve by indirect methods. Indirect defense, indirect offense, yadda yadda. There are only 2 problems that came to be with thief. Out of combat stealth, but again, thats a general problem. And in sPvP exclusively, Shortbow 5. It gave Thief unparalleled mobility. And if thief has both that and is the best duelist, things break. But you never talk about shortbow 5. No you talk about actively
bad
things like in-combat stealth and other such nonsense.

Designing a Profession to do Toxicity bidding is wrong because Thief Profession are worth more than that....it is part of the team.

Intentionally designing a (Judas complex) Profession just for financial mean and with other mean, is cruel at the most. Which is why i will not remain silent until Thief Profession is in a better place

Please, the "better place" you envision for thief is in the trash.

You are freely entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to make my own case and continue to stand by it since beta.

Thank You! for reading

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

UNOwen, pull up my history as evidence with main Thief Profession Players who knows me well enough. I've been calling out for Thief Profession to be redesigned and speaking the honest Truth that nerfing them will not change anything and i use History to prove just that.

Im well aware of your history. Your bias, your irrational hatred of thief, and the fact that despite how much you obsess with the class, you dont seem to care to research anything about it.

I realized that nerfing Thief Profession will do more hard than good to the player experience

Ill believe that when pigs fly.

I do support other Thief Profession constructive suggestions as to how put Thief back into line, being a healthy competitive Profession. Why not? I Same way that i am very Passionate about Necromancer and Mesmer Profession, they deserve that same chance.

Please. You want to remove anything thief has without compensation. Your idea of a "healthy" thief is a useless thief.

My suggestions as the way they have always been before (look up my history), is for Anet to deal with the core root problems than everything else will follow.

Im aware of your suggestions. They fix "core problems" that arent problems, and are almost all terrible suggestions to the point where I question if youve ever played a
single
game of thief.

Why do we constantly have to deal with the same repetitive problems from 8,7,6,5,4,3,2 years ago? That is the key!!

We dont. I mean I guess sometimes a problem repeats, bunker builds, Necro being unkillable, things like that. But for the most part, we get new troubles.

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us learn, improve and to prevent past problems from surfing again?

Shouldn't History be used as a tool to help us decrease Toxicity and to hopefully remove it all together?

Shouldn't History be used to create new growth, new ideas with new visions?

Big talk for someone who doesnt learn from history.

This is what i stand for and this is what i continue to address without sugar-coating the Truth

You dont
care
for the truth. If you cared for the truth you wouldnt constantly spam misleading videos and make grandious essays that obfuscate the fact that youre talking utter nonsense.

Thief Profession should've been in much healthier state with having new designs with new improvisation and it deserves it including its passionate players.

Thief doesnt need a redesign. Thief doesnt even really need any changes. Out of combat stealth does, but thief is far from the only culprit there (your beloved Mesmer for a long time was a bigger problem there).

I've always said this, i Sympathize Thief Profession for being solely designed as Toxic,to do harm, wrong than good. I've always stood by Thief Profession players in game and defend them against other Toxic Professions (see my recent history experiences) because it is not their fault, they don't deserve to be treated unfairly.

"Toxic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means. Thief was not designed to be "toxic". It was designed to represent the tricky, underhanded approach. They achieve what other classes achieve by indirect methods. Indirect defense, indirect offense, yadda yadda. There are only 2 problems that came to be with thief. Out of combat stealth, but again, thats a general problem. And in sPvP exclusively, Shortbow 5. It gave Thief unparalleled mobility. And if thief has both that and is the best duelist, things break. But you never talk about shortbow 5. No you talk about actively
bad
things like in-combat stealth and other such nonsense.

Designing a Profession to do Toxicity bidding is wrong because Thief Profession are worth more than that....it is part of the team.

Intentionally designing a (Judas complex) Profession just for financial mean and with other mean, is cruel at the most. Which is why i will not remain silent until Thief Profession is in a better place

Please, the "better place" you envision for thief is in the trash.

You are freely entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to make my own case and continue to stand by it since beta.

Thank You! for reading

Unfortunately, you are. So we will have to deal with you derailing conversations while contributing nothing useful. I will give you this tip though: Play thief. Just a couple times. You may learn something yet.

Thank You! for your comprehension

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The amount of cognitive dissonance from thief haters here is completely staggering. I get that they likely have never played Thief once in their life but most of the 'arguments' they talk about are downright schizophrenic.

I am playing an off-meta (read: not using bow to be a point bitch) thief and keeping in gold is a furious struggle entirely dependent on whether my team has the big spammy braindead classes. I think a fair amount of you here don't actually play PvP so I'll help you figure out what it looks like right now: a guardian with a shield running around the point spamming flame bursts that will always do more than 30k damage in a matter of seconds. All you need to do to die is being in the vicinity of these no-tell flame farts for a tenth of a second and you are marked for death unless you use one of condition cleanses you know you can't spare on thief like Shadowstep. When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

To compete, I have to pull out some seriously bastard tactics and abuse the shit out of stealth. It's never good enough because many mechanics on thief are busted, like heartseeker, like 'can't find valid path to target', like trying to backstab a guy that has his permaspeed boon on spazzing out so you miss and then have to wait a whole second (standing in a fire, and 66% of the time your backstabs will hit an immunity frame of some sort anyway, so I never bother anymore and instead use my gun for stealth attacks). Apparently necro can steal my health from behind that fence on Foefire but my bullets can't pass. I have the shittiest downstate skills that fool absolutely nobody and I have to compete with ranger's three stuns + second player (pet) and self-revive from a HP sponge that cannot be interrupted. When I stealth skills like Rapid Fire still follow me right around and still hit me, clearly not guided by human hand. In the special snowflake fest that has become the PvP meta right now it's all about permanent boon enemas and as a thief I am obligated to gear entirely towards boon removal; and it's never enough as no matter how many I take away, they are back the next second while I am left here, revealed and vulnerable. That and the devs decided that lol let'sm make entire classes centered around fucking up thieves (spellbreaker).

Stealth attack (backstab) is supposed to be your burst. It's your big reveal, your big attack, your one thing that stings, high risk high reward and after that you are very vulnerable because of position and being out of stealth, and will be absolutely murdered by a single necro well or a stun or a counter-burst. Yet backstab does so little damage that there is no reason to ever try to use it for this purpose (beyond the fact that this is entirely suicidary and most likely to completely miss or fail anyway, unlike your pistol burst) besides what benefits you put on it from your specialized traitlines such as boons and boonrips and the one situational fear. Backstab, for some reason, is not unblockable, and can only be unblockable (still will get blocked by mesmer for some reason) by applying basilisk venom, which takes a whole second to cast to last for another whooping fucking second and locks you out of using the braindead button for shit thieves Daggerstorm or the 'please fight for me I am bad' button Thieves' Guild to get the 'whoops lost your one single setup to a random blind from yet another class that's not a thief but has a thousand ways to protect itself while having twice your health and armor' as Basilisk Venom gets used on miss. So what do I have to do to win? Just never get close. To anything. I will fucking die. Hit or not, because there is zero reward to your risk. So I laugh my ass off at Dagger Training giving me +80/+80 power (Warrior gets +240 ferocity for two axes AND more benefits, thanks Anet) and only ever use them last resort or when there's projectile reflect because there is NEVER a good reason for a backstab class to backstab in this game.

So here's how the meta looks like for thief: literally everything you see will beat you. They have more health, more endurance, more boons, more damage, more invincibility and dodges, sometimes even more stealth than you, and one of them even gets to be two characters in one (ranger). When I see another player, I can't make a plan, because I know whatever I fucking do can and will get countered easily several times while I will run out of offenses and defenses way before they do (I get told: 'bhuuhh but you have no cooldowns!' I do, it's just a big cooldown shared between all my skills. It's even worse.) . I make one single mistake: I die. They need to make at least 7 so I can beat them. Example: ranger matchup. Even when not against the Mary-Sue spec Soulbeast, you're gonna die in one single hit to Knockdown Arrow, because then comes Rapid Fire, and you lost more than half your health: you're fucked. Can you approach him? Traps /Maul / that massive, three kilometers wide rain of arrows. Meanwhile your pew pew guns, Unload, it would take hitting several times with the bursts to do the same damage. This is not balanced. This is the opposite of balanced. If you somehow win your 1v1? You're a fucking trooper, and deserving of that Gold that should be platinum by now.

By some chance I happened to fight a tiger pet away from his master, trying to see if destroying it first would make the ranger matchup easier. So tiger outdamaged me while only taking half the damage. I had to use about most of my utility skills and walk away limping and lucking out. That's the class right now. That's core thief. It's weaker than the ranger's pet, and not even the meanest one, and I'm not playing a meta parrot build with a bow, I'm playing a killer build.

I laugh at these people crying here that thief mains have a god complex. 'ree you want to do EVERYTHING you can't both do damage and move fast!'. I don't see why... Ranger does it. Ranger has sustain too. Better immobilizes. Better range. Better melee. Revenant does it. Mesmer is literally thrice faster but also is the '1v1 class' that should be Thief as written by Anet in the original thief description. Don't get me started with Spellbreaker. Weaver is unkillable. I think a fair amount of bad faith individuals might be necro mains here, because in all my games it's always ever necros that flame the thief (always two necros in the team by the way, because that's the meta). You want toxicity ruining the game? How about this: you join the game, and one of your teammates immediately orders you to go close and far. But I do what I want, especially that close there is some special snowflake with a bunker build that will rape me, and far there is a special snowflake with a killer build that will rape me. What I can do is go sneak attack weak people, hunt down threats like deadeyes and reapers, all that; cue to that teammate dying on mid because he fucking sucks, and during his respawn time will rage the seven heavens on you typing in all caps THIEF U USELESS GO FAR WTF IDIOT DECAP. Every thief main knows what I'm talking about. Fighting with a guy because you have -no choice- but to fight him (in a fighting game, shocking I know)? THIEF U SUCK. Helping out a teammate in a 1v1 or sneaking up on mid to crash the party? THIEF I REPORT U. And frankly it's not so much how fucked in the ass pathetic thief core is right now that makes me hate PvP, it's this. It's that I can't play thief without being hated by some prick on my team, who's got no idea what my class is about, who has no talent or skill or has never played a class that took either to get this far gold, and whenever we lose to get blamed by half the team 'gg retard thief u make us lose no decap'. I obviously win more than half my games to get to gold rank yet whenever something goes well, it's never the thief's fault and clearly, clearly it's just a gimmicky class using cheap shots (>isn't that how thieves SHOULD be fighting?!) and gimmicky abuse to down the righteously competent holosmith / condi guardian / mirage clone-iframe spammer, never a skilled player making the most out of little. Nobody sees all the duels I shouldn't be winning but won anyway, all the clutches, all the gamesense and teamworking I put in to try and keep up with the flavour-of-the-month meta classes on my team and win. It's always 'thief u suck retard'. And that's because of you, who keep trying to make everyone think that thief, in this game, is the bitch class, that it only exist to be the team's bitch and cap points like a disabled puppy, and nothing else, that if he dares to take two pistols and use a skill that actually works he's a noob, and that all you should ever do is run around like an coward with a boy and not bother with big boy things like actually attacking the enemy; because you don't play it, you hate it, and you want to ruin it.

I have had frankly enough of taking shit. I feel like I'm doing twice the effort to deserve my rank, while some classes put even less than half. You wanna know how many bots there are in Gold? It's always necro / mesmer and it should speak volumes that they actually stay in gold and keep being actually useful to the team. Think you ever gonna see a thief bot? Lol no. You people just suck, period, if you lose to a thief right now, if somehow you find a way to bitch about the class I'm sorry but you are just terrible at the game. You get your ass kicked by the shittiest, weakest class in PvP. So I have an idea, how about you play thief? How about you experience what it's like to play a class that gets spat on by your teammates every match while feeling as influential on the game outcome as floatsam in a stormy sea? Get to gold / plat with a core thief (no daredevil permadodge cheese for you), then we'll talk.

Until then I'm not sorry but I'm gonna call bullshit on whatever you're saying.

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After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

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@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

Should be noted that the 2 finalist teams had condi thieves. Noone saw that coming. It probably was exploiting the fact that teams were ill-prepared for it. Sindrener was on thief because, in his own words, "he sucks too much at anything else", having stated that if he was good at Rev, he would drop thief and just play Rev.

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@darren.1064 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

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