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The Death of Thief


darren.1064

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of exactly bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

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@darren.1064 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

Not going to go back and count them all out but ironically thief probably had more 1v1 wins than the other classes as most 1v1's were tank ranger/engi/renegade/necro stalemating until one side got a plus where as the condi thieves would occasionally 100-0 targets on their own which is close enough to a 1v1 win and there were quite a few power thief mirror duels where one side won.

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@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

Not going to go back and count them all out but ironically thief probably had more 1v1 wins than the other classes as most 1v1's were tank ranger/engi/renegade/necro stalemating until one side got a plus where as the condi thieves would occasionally 100-0 targets on their own which is close enough to a 1v1 win and there were quite a few power thief mirror duels where one side won.

So i'm seeing two different things. One, that while nobody really won any 1v1s, it took a broken condition thief build to actually win a 1v1 against other professions. What I'm also seeing is that you have to run a condi thief build as well as Sindrener and Vallun to get kills in ranked or AT's now. That's concerning. for the 99.99999% of thieves that aren't Sindrener and Vallun. You might as well play 8 of the other 9 professions at that point then because it sounds like the thieves were: dedicated +1ers and decappers.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

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@darren.1064 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

Your question was already answered in the past, they tried to give thieves a more duellist spec with s/d..and that proved to be too strong, nerfs followed few months later. I believe they should scrap the initiative system for starter

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

Your question was already answered in the past, they tried to give thieves a more duellist spec with s/d..and that proved to be too strong, nerfs followed few months later. I believe they should scrap the initiative system for starter

It was strong or people called for nerfs because people can't figure out how to plat a profession with medium armor and 11,645 health? I remember the S/D meta about 4 seasons ago. It was still hard countered by every melee profession + Reaper + Ranger + Holosmith + Weaver. Thief has very rarely been too strong. There's been moments where some brain dead build pops up. For example that condi dodge build that I pray never comes back. However, S/D thief? It has absolutely never been too strong. People just cry and don't think how to beat a build that can shadowstep freely.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can never kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

If the thief was forced to run, then doesn't that mean you won? So no it doesn't sound OP. It just sounds like you're happy your kills couldn't go up by 1. The point of conquest isn't to kill, it's to capture a point. This isn't the courtyard, and so if they're forced to flee the scene: They've obviously lost.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

If you can't kill a thief out of initiative in 12 seconds, then that sounds like a learn to play issue. especially on a class as broken as guardian is currently. Also the point about running: once again, if a thief is forced to run: which they 100% are forced to do now since we can't win fights; why are you not happy just taking the point? Maybe you should try a different form of gameplay if you're only satisfied with kills instead of completing the main and only real objective of conquest pvp: capturing the point.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either lose or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run before he really fought. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn any big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief MASSIVE buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

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@darren.1064 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

If the thief was forced to run, then doesn't that mean you won? So no it doesn't sound OP. It just sounds like you're happy your kills couldn't go up by 1. The point of conquest isn't to kill, it's to capture a point. This isn't the courtyard, and so if they're forced to flee the scene: They've obviously lost.

It's 15s to respawn and another 15s more or less to reach the nearest point, half minute to give a point boost to your team or promote a snowballing effect...yeah killing opponents is important in conquest ; even more because you're facing a profession that can recover its attack pattern in 1/3 of the time you need and also can move 2-3x as fast as you

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@AldKai.9712 said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

If the thief was forced to run, then doesn't that mean you won? So no it doesn't sound OP. It just sounds like you're happy your kills couldn't go up by 1. The point of conquest isn't to kill, it's to capture a point. This isn't the courtyard, and so if they're forced to flee the scene: They've obviously lost.

It's 15s to respawn and another 15s more or less to reach the nearest point, half minute to give a point boost to your team or promote a snowballing effect...yeah killing opponents is important in conquest ; even more because you're facing a profession that can recover its attack pattern in 1/3 of the time you need and also can move 2-3x as fast as you

Sir, you're not getting it. a thief isn't snowballing anything. It's +1 potential is atrocious and it's a liability in groupfights. A thief getting away is about as significant as you possibly getting decapped on a different point before the thief is either intercepted on the way there or manages to successfully decap it. Mobility alone is so insignificant if you can't do anything with said mobility. Imagine if you could get between home and far in 3 seconds. Now imagine the only downhill part of this was that you only did 3k bursts and autoattacks did 100 damage. Is this a build or playstyle that you would want to play yourself? Is this a feasible way that any class should play when ranger pets are doing more damage or even 1 attack out of a chain from other professions. People just don't want to see a profession with a high skill ceiling and floor act like a class with a high ceiling and floor and so both are diminished down. And there's this rolling over effect of nerfs and having to rely on ones teams. But imagine when your team is absolutely atrocious and as a thief, sometimes i'm the best person on my team. Imagine when the best person on your team is a person that does 5k damage for a spike. That's not the kind of best person I want on MY team and that's not the kind of pvp we should have where you're the best hitting people for laughable amounts of damage. I for one believe in actual pvp. Not tickling amounts of mediocre play.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Lets go over everything that kills S/D thief: Holosmith easily, all rangers but soulbeast especially, core necro and scourge, tempest and weaver, FB and DH, SB. That's plentiful counterplay already for your top of the top thief build. Not to mention all the reveal and ranged attacks that obliterate it.

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed really early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder)

Stealth on Steal is redundant actually because Steal does damage itself. Most of the time when thieves use steal, they're already stealthed. So if they used Hidden Thief to receive said stealth on steal, they would just end up revealing themselves. It's pretty obvious you guys don't play thief.

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@darren.1064 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder)

Stealth on Steal is redundant actually because Steal does damage itself. Most of the time when thieves use steal, they're already stealthed. So if they used Hidden Thief to receive said stealth on steal, they would just end up revealing themselves. It's pretty obvious you guys don't play thief.

No sorry , it doesn't revealIts like if you do Black Powder + Heartseeker on the enemy , you stealth from the combo and you wont get reveleaed by the attacking spell

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder)

Stealth on Steal is redundant actually because Steal does damage itself. Most of the time when thieves use steal, they're already stealthed. So if they used Hidden Thief to receive said stealth on steal, they would just end up revealing themselves. It's pretty obvious you guys don't play thief.

No sorry , it doesn't revealIts like if you do Black Powder + Heartseeker on the enemy , you stealth from the combo and you wont get reveleaed by the attacking spell

What he means is that if youre already stealthed, and use hidden thief, you get unstealthed. Thats true obviously.

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@darren.1064 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

Your question was already answered in the past, they tried to give thieves a more duellist spec with s/d..and that proved to be too strong, nerfs followed few months later. I believe they should scrap the initiative system for starter

It was strong or people called for nerfs because people can't figure out how to plat a profession with medium armor and 11,645 health? I remember the S/D meta about 4 seasons ago. It was still hard countered by every melee profession + Reaper + Ranger + Holosmith + Weaver. Thief has very rarely been too strong. There's been moments where some brain dead build pops up. For example that condi dodge build that I pray never comes back. However, S/D thief? It has absolutely never been too strong. People just cry and don't think how to beat a build that can shadowstep freely.

Huh? S/D thief was made meta during mid 2014, a year before HoT release..there was no reaper and certainly no holosmith or weaver, then s/d got nerfed months before HoT release

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