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The Death of Thief

darren.1064

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

Your question was already answered in the past, they tried to give thieves a more duellist spec with s/d..and that proved to be too strong, nerfs followed few months later. I believe they should scrap the initiative system for starter

It was strong or people called for nerfs because people can't figure out how to plat a profession with medium armor and 11,645 health? I remember the S/D meta about 4 seasons ago. It was still hard countered by every melee profession + Reaper + Ranger + Holosmith + Weaver. Thief has very rarely been too strong. There's been moments where some brain dead build pops up. For example that condi dodge build that I pray never comes back. However, S/D thief? It has absolutely never been too strong. People just cry and don't think how to beat a build that can shadowstep freely.

Huh? S/D thief was made meta during mid 2014, a year before HoT release..there was no reaper and certainly no holosmith or weaver, then s/d got nerfed months before HoT release

S/D did not get nerfed in 2014. It only got a minor buff.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

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Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed
really
early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the end

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darren.1064

darren.1064

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

Sir. Running Hidden Thief is redundant. I've already explained this to you. Doing any damage reveals you from stealth. EVERY thief runs Mug. I promise you you aren't making any sense.

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darren.1064

darren.1064

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed
really
early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the end

Exhibit A of why this isn't true: RangersExhibit B of why this isn't true: Guardians

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed
really
early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the end

Thief is a far, far way away from doing its job too well. Right now it doesnt do its job at all. Right now you can expect sizeable damage buffs. As for later, we shall see. Besides, countering thief is trivial if they stick around to fight. Which is why they dont.

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Captain Kuro.8937

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@darren.1064 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

Sir. Running Hidden Thief is redundant. I've already explained this to you. Doing any damage reveals you from stealth. EVERY thief runs Mug. I promise you you aren't making any sense.

No sorry , even with mug it doessn't remove the stealth from the trait .It behaves like CND , deal damage then stealths

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta buildshttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta buildshttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes damaging conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

If yOu use CND + Steal , you deal damage and then stealthIf you use hidden Thief , you dont need to do CND

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 secBurns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do NOT stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait that removes condtions + stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the thieves + streamers have a different tactics and use stealth more , than us ?

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Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed
really
early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the end

Thief is a far,
far
way away from doing its job too well. Right now it doesnt do its job at all. Right now you can expect sizeable damage buffs. As for later, we shall see. Besides, countering thief is trivial if they stick around to fight. Which is why they dont.

Remember that Shadow art was left mostly intact where every other profession got their sustain reduced ( necro is another class whose sustain line didn't receive any nerfs) also from what I can understand you're asking for something akin to a revenant but with the addition of stealth, ofc you're not asking for a revenant with stealth but...adding all the suggestions you're making that's what we get.

-You want more dmg-more sustain for duels-keep the mobility mostly intact-stealth a non issue for balance

Basically a rev with stealth....yeah you will say I am wrong ofc but then what you'd be asking would be a semi rev with more dmg and less sustain which will end playing anyway as +1 like now, whichever way you turn it...it doesn't seem possible from a balance point of view

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both worse. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

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UNOwen.7132

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@"AldKai.9712" said:When I die, it is always to condition damage, almost never to power damage and such.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work

They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away.

Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?

Not really? Think about it this way. You can
never
kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter.

You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust.

Well, no. On thief you either
lose
or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run
before he really fought
. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately.

Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight.

Except in praxis, you dont have to burn
any
big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative.

Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?

Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief
MASSIVE
buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist.

I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options

Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf.

S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed
really
early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase.

When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the end

Thief is a far,
far
way away from doing its job too well. Right now it doesnt do its job at all. Right now you can expect sizeable damage buffs. As for later, we shall see. Besides, countering thief is trivial if they stick around to fight. Which is why they dont.

Remember that Shadow art was left mostly intact where every other profession got their sustain reduced ( necro is another class whose sustain line didn't receive any nerfs) also from what I can understand you're asking for something akin to a revenant but with the addition of stealth, ofc you're not asking for a revenant with stealth but...adding all the suggestions you're making that's what we get.

Because Shadow Arts give no meaningful sustain whatsoever. Nothing really you could nerf in that regard. Well, other than Shadows Rejuvination, and that did get nerfed. And nah, Rev is actually a strong duelist. Thief, even with damage buffs, is not gonna be one.

-You want more dmg-more sustain for duels-keep the mobility mostly intact-stealth a non issue for balance

Nah. See what I would want is for shortbow 5 to be cut or for thief to be able to not be held back by it, so they can get the other 2 (stealth doesnt matter until in-combat stealth is buffed to actually be useful, with out of combat stealth being nerfed). But as long as shortbow 5 exists, thief just needs to have more damage. So that at least they can +1 and be useful that way.

Basically a rev with stealth....yeah you will say I am wrong ofc but then what you'd be asking would be a semi rev with more dmg and less sustain which will end playing anyway as +1 like now, whichever way you turn it...it doesn't seem possible from a balance point of view

Nah. It would still be much less damage than rev. There is a lot of buffs thief would need before they approach Rev levels of damage, and Im not asking for quite that much.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_ThiefBut in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

Channeling Vigor is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is much worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is never. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why EVERY good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

Edit:I hope i will see a grenade barrage enginner in the July tournament .

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UNOwen.7132

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@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they DONT stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch

most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is once. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.
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Captain Kuro.8937

Captain Kuro.8937

Posted
Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditionsYou look like anew player like myself , its ok if you make some mistakes too:)

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

Posted
Posted

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of
exactly
bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.

Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the
, for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)

It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.

The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources

They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.

If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .Even on Vallun video a while back

Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.

It behaves like Cloack And Dagger

If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.

Mug its on Deadly spec .And we are talking about meta builds

There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.

You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .

Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes
damaging
conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.

I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more

Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.

Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec

Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.

Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second

They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do
NOT
stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.

Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .

And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.

If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?

Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both
worse
. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.

Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :

I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is
much
worse. End of story.

But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more

He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is
never
. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.

Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .

Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.

While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)

You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why
EVERY
good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.

No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .

I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.

If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .

Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).

They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips

They do. Thats why they
DONT
stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch
most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is
once
. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.

I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .

Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.

And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions

No, he uses them against all opponents. He does not do what you describe EVER. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and maybe if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.

I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also

Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.

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