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Analytics should not drive the direction of the game...


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:Hypothetically speaking, there will be more players that completed it fast than that completed it slow.

Which brings the other question, what is fast and what is slow? A player rushing through the episode, ignoring all dialogue will count as someone that "enjoyed" it, while a player that didn't go to play the story the moment it was available because he was role playing in LA will appear as "not enjoying it". I guess I didn't like Long Live the Lich story at all, because to this day I haven't finished the Dexterous Dodger achievement, or is it only very specific achievements that "count" for enjoyment?3

But the point is that data can be taken as a meassure of overall enjoyment. But its more complex than high number x means high enjoyment. And maybe thats why you dont seem to get it and we fail to provide meaningful examples.

Maybe. I still believe the only way to get some "enjoyment analytics" is by either polling the community directly, forum posts or responses on social media and it's not something that can be done by statistics gathered in-game. Those can show popularity, but popularity and enjoyment

I don't think you understand analytics, there is no such thing as 'enjoyment analytics' and in fact it's being used as a strawman argument in this thread.

Ansltics are objective measuremrnt of player activity from which you feed into big data to establish trends/patterns of behaviour.

Examples of objective data

x % of players why typically repeat activities who have tried a target activity and repeat same activity indicates replayability. This can then be compared to baseline target replayability for an activity designed to be replayable. This could in turn be correlated with cost and value, which in turn could be measured against other content types, or industry standard levels etc.

% of players who play 5 man instanced content and play strikes that do not raid is another objective statistic that would be of interest IF raids were designed to attract these players.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:I didn't respond to the OP, I responded to this:

@Rasimir.6239 said:The numbers are able to show what people enjoy, as well as what people see rewarding.I'm still waiting for someone to show me what those numbers that show player enjoyment are.First of all you are ignoring the context of that sentence, which was a reply to somebody claiming that numbers
only
show what content is rewarding.

As an example of numbers showing something different, take me: I play a lot of dungeons, both with friends but more often pugging via lfg. I've finished every last dungeon-related achievement and collection years ago, and dungeon tokens pile up in my wallet without me spending them on anything (and to an amount that doesn't make sense to save up if I had a specific use for them in mind). What do those numbers show? Certainly not that I play dungeons because of the rewards. Of course it's a guess that I might play them because I enjoy them, but it's probably the most likely explanation there is, given the circumstances.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:But the point is that data can be taken as a meassure of overall enjoyment. But its more complex than high number x means high enjoyment. And maybe thats why you dont seem to get it and we fail to provide meaningful examples.

Maybe. I still believe the only way to get some "enjoyment analytics" is by either polling the community directly, forum posts or responses on social media and it's not something that can be done by statistics gathered in-game. Those can show popularity, but popularity and enjoyment can be very very different.Popularity and rewards can be very different, too. Judging from my friends list, SAB is very popular right now, although the people in question have already finished all the achievements and collections available in their difficulty of choice. That's certainly not a metric of SAB being rewarding, but just popular.

@kharmin.7683 said:People seem to be arguing that Anet only uses one, specific set of data for their analytics. I'm sure that they gather a lot more than they could possibly use.Well said. The art isn't gathering numbers, it's knowing how to use them.

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@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:I don't think you understand analytics, there is no such thing as 'enjoyment analytics' and in fact it's being used as a strawman argument in this thread.

I do not think you understood the argument then. It was a very simple question: can analytics/data (objective data as you said) be used to measure enjoyment?Since there is no such thing as "enjoyment analytics" I guess your answer is a no.

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@"Rasimir.6239" said:What do those numbers show?

From a statistics viewpoint? Nothing much. Look at it this way: how many players do what you do, and how many players farm Silverwastes RIBA daily? I guess if the numbers showed more people playing dungeons, we'd have more dungeons right? Isn't that the point? To offer content that the highest number of players, or the highest percentage of the playerbase plays.

Certainly not that I play dungeons because of the rewards. Of course it's a guess that I might play them because I enjoy them, but it's probably the most likely explanation there is, given the circumstances.

Tell me, do you like playing in Tangled Depths (your favorite map) more than running Ascalonian Catacombs (since you enjoy running dungeons), or the other way around? How would you tell Arenanet which of these you like more? Is there even a way to quantify "enjoyment"?

Popularity and rewards can be very different, too. Judging from my friends list, SAB is very popular right now, although the people in question have already finished all the achievements and collections available in their difficulty of choice. That's certainly not a metric of SAB being rewarding, but just popular.

Yes indeed.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:I don't think you understand analytics, there is no such thing as 'enjoyment analytics' and in fact it's being used as a strawman argument in this thread.

I do not think you understood the argument then. It was a very simple question: can analytics/data (objective data as you said) be used to measure enjoyment?Since there is no such thing as "enjoyment analytics" I guess your answer is a no.

analytics are not used to measure enjoyment, its a measure of data that can be used to infer enjoyment. , as i've said the use of 'enjoyment' as an analytic measurement is a strawman arguement. analytics can however objectively measure how attractive content is to players, and its obvious that you can make conclusions as per the examples I gave. If people enjoy content then they will play it.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:If people enjoy content then they will play it.

Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to knowWe're talking analytics, not arithmetic. Just because a
can
lead to b does in no way imply that any specific variety of b is
proof
of the involvement of a.

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@Rasimir.6239 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:If people enjoy content then they will play it.

Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to knowWe're talking analytics, not arithmetic. Just because a
can
lead to b does in no way imply that any specific variety of b is
proof
of the involvement of a.

i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

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@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use. I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.

On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

You need to understand the principles involved. Here's a started for 10 if you want to do research.

https://www.gartner.com/reviews/market/analytics-business-intelligence-platforms

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Someone said above that if you have completed all the achievements from SAB yet are still spending time there that it shows you enjoy the content.

Or you could be farming this limited time opportunity. Glitched weapon prices are bound to go back up after the festival. You also have chances to get orange and blue weapon crates to sell. And there are the weekly rewards. And guild decorations from the fancy furniture coins.

I personally enjoy spending time in SAB but I am outnumbered in guild by those doing it for mercenary reasons.

That said, analytics probably form the foundation for polls, to confirm choices.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:If people enjoy content then they will play it.

Right, so the most enjoyable part of this game is moving around the Silverwastes doing chest runs. Good to knowWe're talking analytics, not arithmetic. Just because a
can
lead to b does in no way imply that any specific variety of b is
proof
of the involvement of a.

i use analytics to help design banking portals, i know what it is.Sorry if you took it personal, but if you re-read you'll notice that I posted in reply to another person (just included your quote that they replied to for context).
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If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

Maddoctor, your black and white fallacies, strawmen and imprecise language don't answer this question. Indeed, you may purposely avoiding answering the question. Why shouldn't we expect the average cognitively healthy player to understand their own value system? Why wouldn't someone farming Silverwastes show that they value farming efficiently? Are we all wrong about what we want or too weak to resist? Why isn't the time we spend doing something a real display of what we value?

I think you are making an argument adapted from the saying; "Do as I say, not as I do."

"Pay attention to what I say, not what I do."

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maybe this helps

https://www.datanami.com/2019/08/29/data-analytics-streamlines-gaming-industry-heres-how/

"Enhancing Game DesignData analytics also helps gaming companies boost game design. Building interactive and complex scenarios for games requires a large stock of creativity, but it also needs a proper understanding of what works well for the audience. Here’s where data analytics can lend a helping hand.

For instance, analytics helps companies detect problematic gameplay moments for users. Indeed, data can show that some levels might be too dull, some might be too challenging, and some might simply contain bugs that don’t let users move forward.

By the way, this is what happened to King Digital Entertainment. This famous game developer once bumped into an unforeseen problem with its most popular game, Candy Crush Saga. Users were massively abandoning level 65, reasons unknown. With 725 levels in total, for Candy Crush Saga such a tendency was quite a trouble. King turned to data analysts to reveal that most people were abandoning because of a particular gaming element that didn’t let users make it past level 65. After certain magic in the development department, the element was deleted, and user retention got moving again."

not only is analytics necessary, it can be critical to long term success. Guess that answers OP. /thread.

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@"kurfu.5623" said:Using Asmongold as a reference to back your arguments totally invalidates whatever point you were trying to make. That guy is an AH.

Analytics are a valid measure of how many people are participating in the various content available.

Can you give me any good reason not to listen to asmongold?He knows everything about WoW and is pretty knowledgeable on the topic.If you don't like his twitch persona thats fine but don't spew bs. You should actually watch the video instead of getting triggered immediately and claiming the OP point invalid, thats pretty childish.

Here is the original if you want to actually focus on the point of the thread but its much longer

Analytics alone are terrible and don't tell you much out of context. You need to know what your players think of the content and listen to feedback. Blizzard ignoring feedback and only going by metrics is why the game sucks today.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:On a more serious tone. Since you use analytics, care to answer the question asked in the previous page, which exactly type of analytics/data can be used to tell if one piece of content is more enjoyable than another. I never got an answer to that but since you know about them you might have an answer. All I got was "quick achievement completion"

Tbh the only way i could see that kind of data being gathered is through surveys(which they do send out sometimes.)

Me having(for example) a few PVP and Raid achievements doesnt mean i enjoy those modes. Me having almost all the achievements in the story doesnt mean anything either. So if they are just using that data....oof...but i doubt thats all they use.

I know, and I said so multiple times already. But there are so many gurus on these forums that claim to know so much about analytics that disagree with that. And when asked to provide which type of data can do the same job as a survey/poll or reading social media/forums, they simply vanish.

I think what is happening here, is mostly miscommunication, rather than disagreement. If you're reading carefully enough, no one is actually saying enjoyment is measured by analytical data, rather that analytical data backs up whether people are enjoying themselves, or hint at enjoyment. (Edit: Although reading back, I did phrase it terribly at one point, saying analytical data does show enjoyment but not 100%, by which I didn't mean show as in prove , but more show as in hint at or shine a light on.)

I wouldnt be surprised if they can track which maps have the most players, what maps are played the most, what activities get done on those maps the most etc.

Of course they do, back in the beta weekend event they posted "Heat maps" that showed where most players were during the beta. Bright colors meant lots of players were at one place, no colors at all meant there were no players in that area. Popularity is very easy to track with proper data, and they do have that kind of data and have shown that they do. It's when it comes to enjoyment and quality that no such data can measure it properly, other than actual community interaction.

In fact, enjoyment isn't perfectly measured by social media surveys and the like either. People are incredibly biased and easily influenced. One time they have one favourite, and the other time another. Often enough the newest thing (or one of those newer things). And getting behind the meaning and reading what the community is really saying is a whole job in and of itself. The same way quality and enjoyment also don't always go hand in hand either. A game can be of the highest quality but simply not be enjoying to a person at all.

(to talk a bit about WoW, maybe WoW was never that good to begin with, and game metrics have little to do with it. :p)

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@"Psientist.6437" said:If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment".Because enjoyment tied to the content is not the only reason someone might be doing the content. They might dislike the content but be there for the rewards. They might not care about the content, but be there because people they play with are doing that. They might be doing some achievements. The reasons are not limited to one. It's not always so easy to see why content is popular.For example, Tarir, while relatively popular, has nowhere close to the popularity of the old Multiloot. In this specific case, we can compare those two examples and can realize easily why one was more popular than the other - it was all about the one thing that was different (no, not enjoyment - rewards). Unfortunately, such comparisons can be hard to come by when all we can compare something with is some different content. There are way too many factors that differ between such cases, so it's usually not so easy to pinpoint the reason (or, the combination of reasons) why one case is popular and other isn't.

The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.Self interest other than enjoyment is very often the case, though. So, how exactly can you tell the difference?

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@"Psientist.6437" said:If someone is doing something that is completely optional, why wouldn't we assume that they are experiencing some level of "enjoyment". The alternative, that they are experiencing no enjoyment, demands we consider whether they are masochistic, addicted or in some way experiencing a compromised ability to consent or calculate self interest. In the context of gaming, we have to face that possibly.

I hate pvp/wvw but do it for the AP. I dont enjoy my time there at all. Saddly, i need that 4k+ AP thats locked behind competitive modes.

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