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Overall PvP Balance, Lets Discuss


Alyster.9470

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First of all I want to start by saying I really enjoyed the patch when it first hit, but as time passed, current meta actually feels worse than before now. I feel like some things are out of control and a hotfix should have arrived much earlier. I have been playing pvp for quite a long time and I have been playing in the plat 2-3 ranks for the last 5-6 seasons, so my discussion will mostly be about plat rank games, please keep in mind that winrates and pickrates differ a lot between ranks, thus a spec might not be a problem for high rank games but might be a lot of problem for lower ranks and I know that balancing things can get more complicated than it seems which may impact a certain rank range more than the other. I would like to discuss some things that I think need adjustments per class/spec and hope you guys also add your opinions so we can create a nice discussion which I hope will build a constructive discussion.

General:

  1. Ressing is out of control, it feels like killing a downed guy is harder than killing it when its alive. The nerf on geyser trait on ele was a good change, but most other ressing abilities are overperforming since overall damage is reduced, cleaving opponents have become much harder, yet ressing is way too strong.
  2. However, I think rez signets are not a problem, since a class sacrifices a utility slot for that its safe to say they are ok, however they should get a cooldown increase overall.

Core Necromancer and Reaper:

  1. Carapace should grant less toughness and should be harder to generate.
  2. Vitality should not increase shroud amount.
  3. Fear of death trait needs a tradeoff like revenants, like "fear does damage and longer, but conditions on you are also longer by xx%".
  4. Eternal Life is the biggest problem in core necro, the trait is very strong.
  5. Reaper just needs an overall damage reduction. Possibly reduce ferocity gained from shroud and death perception.

Core Ranger:

  1. Pets need a huge damage nerf.
  2. Killing a pet does not reward the player, ranger can swap pet and keep going. We can add a rez cooldown to pet when it dies or disable pet swapping when its dead for some time.
  3. Protect me has 24s cd when traited which is a stunbreak AND gives 4k barrier along with prot. Has a lot for the short cd it has.
  4. Maul is fine. The problem is the block on gs, it should block only 1 instance of damage and instantly counter attack similar to full counter.
  5. Wilderness knowledge should cleanse 1 condition instead of 2.

Condi Core Thief:

  1. I will not even comment on this.

Elementalist:

  1. Tornadooooooooooooooooooo.

Holosmith:

  1. Mortar kit should get a minimum range to work, what I mean is they should not be able to spam under their feet. Its a mortar right?
  2. Blind on mortar can use an interval of 3s rather than 1s.
  3. Explosive entrance has too many trait synergies, thus can use an ICD.
  4. Radiant arc should only grant quickness if it hits.
  5. ECSU is the problem of the high damage, its very easy to keep +20might during fight. Should have a higher interval.
  6. Prot holo just needs an overall sustain nerf. Being able to bunker AND use berserker amulet is not ok. Overshield could use a lower modifier but there are a lot of other things that should be looked into in alchemy traitline.

Renegade:

  1. Summons should have less health and reduced durations.
  2. Summon AOE can be reduced.

Herald:

  1. Rather than increasing energy costs of each skill with each patch, changing or reworking their functionality could be a better approach.
  2. Condi revenants have way too high resistance uptime, demonic defiance can be changed to grant resistance when dropped under a certain energy threshold only once while in mallyx.
  3. Abyssal Chill could use an ICD.
  4. Demonic Resistance damage reduction can be changed to %5 permanent reduction and additional %5 when having resistance. %20 is a bit too much.
  5. Call to anguish has very large AOE, could be reduced to 240.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to hear different ideas and recommendations. Lets keep it friendly and constructive.

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I started playing PvP again a few days ago and im currently in Gold 2.

Last time i played was in HoT were i hovered at gold3 - plat1.

My exp so far as a painfully average PvP Player:

I have seen alot of Base Ranger but never found them to be any danger (except one).

Pet just dies or can be ingored.

Mesmer is just as "Anti Fun" as it always been.I would not call it OP but annoying as kitten.

Power scrapper/holo is pure insanity.For me the nr1 OP class right now.Holy lord in heaven that dmg.

Base Necro and its Fear Chains are just crazy.

Condi Thief is annoying but not something i would call OP. Would fight them any day instead of Mesmer.

In my oppinion, Power Engi needs a HARD nerf and Base Necro Fear Duration needs to be nerfed. Rest seems somewhat ok.

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I agree mostly of them, but have 2 things to ranger on your post (the only class I have knowledge)

Protect me, don't gives fury or condi cleanse, it's a command not a survival skillBut the barrier is a problem.I would take the old one with the taunt

Gs4 block looks pretty strong, and you suggest the old way of it, it sounds fine but for the old one, there were plenty of counter plays, without any risks

Warrior could proc it with gs3 and dodge it simultaneouslyMesmer had a lot of fun to us the block as a direct stun, because clonesEngi was able to throw a turret to ez procGuard avtivated block and just lolRev and soulbeast with there smoke assault

I would take the old way, if the evade stays and we would get back the dmg of itOr I would reduce the block duration to 2 or 1.5 sec instead of 3

I don't want to sound like the ranger police, but I would bring a slightly different perspective

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Just dropping this here:

Warrior: Greatsword F1 still needs to be tiered in damage depending on adrenaline bars. Other than the hammer rework that will probably come in the future, I'm giving the microphone to warrior mains, since the class is strong but it has no place in current conquest meta.

Guardian: Very similar problem to warrior, it's a very strong class but you can just take renegade or tempest.

Revenant: It's strong, has 3 builds in current meta (shiro/glint, jalis/kalla, shiro/kalla). I honestly don't know what to nerf in revenant except for banning specialization stacking. Meta aside, there are still very bad skills in shortbow and spirits should be usable on and from no port zones.

Ranger: Am I the only one who finds sidenoder core a normal build (except 999 modifiers)? I have no problem with them having the most versatile weapon, ranger always had good weapons (even offmeta ranger weapons except torch are better than some weapons in other classes). Druid still needs buffs and soulbeast is useless when you can just get a power herald instead. Oh also protection on dodge needs to go or at least be 50% nerfed.

Thief: There is literally no way condi thief is as strong as it performs lmao.

Engineer: Hard Light Arena and Purity of Purpose OP. Mortar is fine but any engineer walks with 30 boons on them.

Necromancer: Before I say anything, shroud-on-death should be reworked. With this out of the way, I want to say "shroud damage reduction should be 25% instead of 50%", but nobody decent bursts necromancers while they are in shroud. I honestly can't think of a nerf. So, microphone is on you now necro mains.

Elementalist: It's fine except aurashare should share auras with 25% reduced duration. Maybe FA resetting Overload Air should be looked at. LR should not be able to crit and be on interrupt only. Oh also, I had 1500+ ferocity and arcane thing critted for 1.1k lol.

Mesmer: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/103709/mesmer-bug-list-thingy

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@"Alyster.9470" said:First of all I want to start by saying I really enjoyed the patch when it first hit, but as time passed, current meta actually feels worse than before now. I feel like some things are out of control and a hotfix should have arrived much earlier. I have been playing pvp for quite a long time and I have been playing in the plat 2-3 ranks for the last 5-6 seasons, so my discussion will mostly be about plat rank games, please keep in mind that winrates and pickrates differ a lot between ranks, thus a spec might not be a problem for high rank games but might be a lot of problem for lower ranks and I know that balancing things can get more complicated than it seems which may impact a certain rank range more than the other. I would like to discuss some things that I think need adjustments per class/spec and hope you guys also add your opinions so we can create a nice discussion which I hope will build a constructive discussion.

General:

  1. Ressing is out of control, it feels like killing a downed guy is harder than killing it when its alive. The nerf on geyser trait on ele was a good change, but most other ressing abilities are overperforming since overall damage is reduced, cleaving opponents have become much harder, yet ressing is way too strong.
  2. However, I think rez signets are not a problem, since a class sacrifices a utility slot for that its safe to say they are ok, however they should get a cooldown increase overall.

Core Necromancer and Reaper:

  1. Carapace should grant less toughness and should be harder to generate.
  2. Vitality should not increase shroud amount.
  3. Fear of death trait needs a tradeoff like revenants, like "fear does damage and longer, but conditions on you are also longer by xx%".
  4. Eternal Life is the biggest problem in core necro, the trait is very strong.
  5. Reaper just needs an overall damage reduction. Possibly reduce ferocity gained from shroud and death perception.

Core Ranger:

  1. Pets need a huge damage nerf.
  2. Killing a pet does not reward the player, ranger can swap pet and keep going. We can add a rez cooldown to pet when it dies or disable pet swapping when its dead for some time.
  3. Protect me has 24s cd when traited which is a stunbreak AND gives 4k barrier along with prot fury and 2 condi cleanse. Too many things to consider here.
  4. Maul is fine. The problem is the block on gs, it should block only 1 instance of damage and instantly counter attack similar to full counter.
  5. Wilderness knowledge should cleanse 1 condition instead of 2.

Condi Core Thief:

  1. I will not even comment on this.

Elementalist:

  1. Tornadooooooooooooooooooo.

Holosmith:

  1. Mortar kit should get a minimum range to work, what I mean is they should not be able to spam under their feet. Its a mortar right?
  2. Blind on mortar can use an interval of 3s rather than 1s.
  3. Explosive entrance has too many trait synergies, thus can use an ICD.
  4. Radiant arc should only grant quickness if it hits.
  5. ECSU is the problem of the high damage, its very easy to keep +20might during fight. Should have a higher interval.
  6. Prot holo just needs an overall sustain nerf. Being able to bunker AND use berserker amulet is not ok. Overshield could use a lower modifier but there are a lot of other things that should be looked into in alchemy traitline.

Renegade:

  1. Summons should have less health and reduced durations.
  2. Summon AOE can be reduced.

Herald:

  1. Rather than increasing energy costs of each skill with each patch, changing or reworking their functionality could be a better approach.
  2. Condi revenants have way too high resistance uptime, demonic defiance can be changed to grant resistance when dropped under a certain energy threshold only once while in mallyx.
  3. Abyssal Chill could use an ICD.
  4. Demonic Resistance damage reduction can be changed to %5 permanent reduction and additional %5 when having resistance. %20 is a bit too much.
  5. Call to anguish has very large AOE, could be reduced to 240.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to hear different ideas and recommendations. Lets keep it friendly and constructive.

I could see the core's defense being slightly nerfed but i don't know about nerfing reaper too much.

I'm worried about damage nerfs being so large that reaper ends up being unable to kill stuff.

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what I think.1 NecroReduce shroud generation, potentially increase shroud degeneration for both core and reaper slightly.core necro should not be able to generate entire shroud every 10s with such ease.2 EleRemove LR from the game or hard nerf it to the ground, ICD + on interrupt, or nerf the weakness to 1s and dmg by 80% if you dont want the icd.No idea how tempest works but stun aura is mighty annoying, propably would look to do something with it.3 RangerNerf pet dmg across the board, and fix LB range, other then that maybe touch their stun removing tools, dont remember the last time stunning ranger actually did anything.4 I dont know how strong condi thief is, I play mesmer build with 1 condi cleanse so they are going to wreck me if they are strong or weak so I cant comment on it.5 HoloEngi needs to lose its perma 15might. as long as that exists they will be able to both bunker and deal lots of damage, devs need to find a way for engi to generate might while building dps and being unable to do that while bunkering down. Other then that nerf mortar 1 dmg, getting constantly blasted by 2k+ by auto that can hit through walls by a TANK is just lol.6 RevBoth power and condi rev seem insane strong to me, they are both a package of damage+survivability+cc, they just need something changed in one of those three, propably not the damage, survivability would be my best guess, and CC is well telegraphed even if its plentiful.7 MesIm biased so all im gonna say is at lest fix the bugs lol

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@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:I started playing PvP again a few days ago and im currently in Gold 2.

Last time i played was in HoT were i hovered at gold3 - plat1.

My exp so far as a painfully average PvP Player:

I have seen alot of Base Ranger but never found them to be any danger (except one).

Pet just dies or can be ingored.

Mesmer is just as "Anti Fun" as it always been.I would not call it OP but annoying as kitten.

Power scrapper/holo is pure insanity.For me the nr1 OP class right now.Holy lord in heaven that dmg.

Base Necro and its Fear Chains are just crazy.

Condi Thief is annoying but not something i would call OP. Would fight them any day instead of Mesmer.

In my oppinion, Power Engi needs a HARD nerf and Base Necro Fear Duration needs to be nerfed. Rest seems somewhat ok.

i think ppl in gold 2 are not abusing the OP pets, it's pretty hard to ignore tiger and birds hitting you 5-9k

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@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:I started playing PvP again a few days ago and im currently in Gold 2.

Last time i played was in HoT were i hovered at gold3 - plat1.

My exp so far as a painfully average PvP Player:

I have seen alot of Base Ranger but never found them to be any danger (except one).

Pet just dies or can be ingored.

Mesmer is just as "Anti Fun" as it always been.I would not call it OP but annoying as kitten.

Power scrapper/holo is pure insanity.For me the nr1 OP class right now.Holy lord in heaven that dmg.

Base Necro and its Fear Chains are just crazy.

Condi Thief is annoying but not something i would call OP. Would fight them any day instead of Mesmer.

In my oppinion, Power Engi needs a HARD nerf and Base Necro Fear Duration needs to be nerfed. Rest seems somewhat ok.

i think ppl in gold 2 are not abusing the OP pets, it's pretty hard to ignore tiger and birds hitting you 5-9k

Actually ALL base ranger i have seen used a bird or tiger.

Just encounterd one of like 30 rangers that managed to be a treath.

/shrug

Ohh and i play necro.

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Holosmith:

  1. Mortar kit should get a minimum range to work, what I mean is they should not be able to spam under their feet. Its a mortar right?
  2. Blind on mortar can use an interval of 3s rather than 1s.
  3. Explosive entrance has too many trait synergies, thus can use an ICD.
  4. Radiant arc should only grant quickness if it hits.
  5. ECSU is the problem of the high damage, its very easy to keep +20might during fight. Should have a higher interval.
  6. Prot holo just needs an overall sustain nerf. Being able to bunker AND use berserker amulet is not ok. Overshield could use a lower modifier but there are a lot of other things that should be looked into in alchemy traitline.

Alright lets start with 1.:Mortars range has already an effective minimum. You dont hit effectively targets at a range of 1500. The projectiles just fly too long in that time you dont even have to waste a dodge to get out of the AoE. The only difference is just that you have to be closer to the point to start spamming while you run to the point. It's possible that mortar's range will be nerfed to 1200 but I dont think that this is a big difference between 1200 and 1500.Mortar shouldn't be able to spam under my feet? Its just the mortars mechanic that it has 5 ground targeting skills. Do you wanna have that the mortar auto targets you and hits you everytime?I don't know if thats true but I heard that engis kits damage hasn't been nerfed in february. If its true you can see clearly that the mortars damage is above average. If the kits damage has been nerfed in february their damage is in comparison to the other classes too high.I dont wanna say that mortar is too strong but mortar is just being played because engi's other options are not really that good. Prime light beam is currently really weak in comparison to the mortar. For elixier X you need a little bit luck so you get the proper transformation for your current situation.

Let's go to 2.:I don't think that mortar's blinding field is too strong but it could need a slight nerf. Like reducing the duration to 3 or 4 seconds. An increase of the intervall by 300% is just too much in my eyes. You would only get 2 blinds and the skill has an cd of 20sec. You just have to play around the field if u are fighting on the point. Just try to use a block or an evade.IMO there are too much AOE effects and skills. It would be better that every duration of the AoE skills is lower. But they have to be nerfed all together like Anet decreased the damage of all classes. To say a number just for an example would the game better by far if u decrease the durations of ALL AoE skills to 2 sec. It's fine if Anet would sligthly increase the damage as well as the effect but the game would be in a far better state because not every point is full of these AoE fields.

Lets go to 3.Yes, I agree that explosive entrance (EE) is too strong. Especially the blind. IMO EE is already too strong without the blind. It just crits after every dodge roll up to 3k against targets with light armor or 2k against heavy armor. A good nerf to EE would be to give it a cd of 5sec+ or remove the blindness and decrease the damage a little bit and dont give it an cd.

4.Radiant arc should only grant quickness? This is not an good idea. Its one of the only high burst skill outside of the holoforge holosmith has. Its also very easy to dodge (it has an 0.75sec cast time and the animation is very obvious) has an 14sec long cd and gives only 2Sec or 4sec (4 Secs is a bit much) quickness if u use it right. I think the skill is fine in its current state.

5.I didnt really play a lot with that trait and I did not really have problems facing other holos using this trait, because in my eyes ECSU is not that much superior to the other trait (which deos loosing heat per dodge). This being said I cant really give an suggestions.

6.I totally agree with that. Prot holos sustain is just too high. He can easily tank 2 people or cant be killed in a 1v1. A possible nerf would be to reduce the protection uptime or the other way would be that nerfing the trait (which removes on condition when u give protection to yourself) to give it a cd of 3-5 sec so that engis condi remove is nerfed and engi is weaker against conditions.What do you mean lower shield could use an lower modifier? I think the modifier is fine. Holosmith has just too much protection uptime.It would be nice if u could have mention the traits of alchemy which should be taken a look at. IMO the alchemy traitline is fine. The other core traitlines are just not as strong as alchemy.

I hope I could clearly show you my thoughts on engi. Let me what you think about it. IMO too big changes of the traits or skills can cause an enormous disbalance. I agree that prot holo is currently very strong but it is not that overpowered as you described it. But it is not that strong that you have to make such big nerfes which were suggested by you.

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:2 EleRemove LR from the game or hard nerf it to the ground, ICD + on interrupt, or nerf the weakness to 1s and dmg by 80% if you dont want the icd.No idea how tempest works but stun aura is mighty annoying, propably would look to do something with it.

I would have to disagree with "removing" or "hard nerfing" lightning rod, currenly weaver has literally 1 viable build. Water weaver is bad, fire weaver is bad and only build left is LR which also has 0 reliable condi cleanse and it gets countered by any condi class. Fire weaver had been meta for too long and im glad that it changed. However I agree on tempest, auras are too strong and its healing is quite massive.

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Its funny that now ECSU is a problem, even though its only picked because the Thermal Vent trait was nerfed. Just like Mortar kit is now a problem because PLB is unplayable. Frankly, theyre fine (Mortar kit could use a slight damage nerf though), ECSU in particular.

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@Alyster.9470 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:2 EleRemove LR from the game or hard nerf it to the ground, ICD + on interrupt, or nerf the weakness to 1s and dmg by 80% if you dont want the icd.No idea how tempest works but stun aura is mighty annoying, propably would look to do something with it.

I would have to disagree with "removing" or "hard nerfing" lightning rod, currenly weaver has literally 1 viable build. Water weaver is bad, fire weaver is bad and only build left is LR which also has 0 reliable condi cleanse and it gets countered by any condi class. Fire weaver had been meta for too long and im glad that it changed. However I agree on tempest, auras are too strong and its healing is quite massive.

I gotta agree with this too. There isn't a power damage build that can do what LR can. I've seen some scepter burst weavers, but nothing actually Plat viable.

I understand CC's and damage is frustrating, but if they nerf LR (which could be a hard nerf, just look at twist of fate), then a viable replacement will have to be made.

Without LR, Ele's damage is laughable

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My post was origninally going to be very long, but I decided to trim it down and focus only on a few key points.

When approaching nerfs, there are 3 things you want to avoid.

  1. Making classes feel clunky
  2. Overnerfing
  3. Creating a scenario in which an ability no longer functions as intended.

You managed to check all 3 boxes with your Mortar kit suggestions.

Clunk: A minimum cast range on mortar will have to be a game wide change. Balance aside, this will be scourge/chrono all over again, a change that makes a class more clunky and less fun.

Skills not functioning as intended: Contrary to popular belief, mortar kit is more than 3k autos and a blind field. Mortar is built around combo fields. You're meant to utilize these fields for their various effects to gain maximum value out of the kit. For example, as a Heal scrapper, you'd want to drop the water field benath yourself and your allies and blast/leap it using your various other skills.

When utilizing the light field from Flash Shell, you're intended to spam autos at your feet You do this because, in order for a projectile finisher to cleanse you, both you and the opponent must be inside the field. By giving it a minimum cast range, you remove this functionality. Likewise, you will no longer be able to drop a poison field and combo with shredder gyro for poison finishers, ect.

Overnerfing: Alone, a minimum cast range is a huge nerf to mortar kit, for reasons mentioned above. For good measure, you also suggest nerfing the blind pulse, which, after the previous round of nerfs, would end up being mortar kits final saving grace to keep it a relevant pick. Nerf this and you kill the utility off for good.

You might say that Holo is too strong, so it's a warranted nerf, but for better measure, you also suggest hefty nerfs to holo.


One final point I'd like to make.

If an elite spec is overperforming, but a core spec is not. Nerf the Elite, do not nerf core.

You see this so often with Rev balance suggestions.

Shiro/Jallis - BalancedShiro/Mallyx - BalancedShiro/Ventari - BalancedShiro/ Glint - OP

Virdict: Nerf Shiro

Mallyx/Shiro - BalancedMallyx/Jallis - BalancedMallyx/Ventari - BalancedMallyx/Glint - OP

Virdict: Nerf Mallyx

Both Mallyx and Shiro have been nerfed enough. We do not need nerfs to the legends themselves, nor their traits. Both suffer from hefty energy costs after repeated nerfs, and in Shiro's case, it's a shadow of its former self in many ways. If you're going to nerf Condi Herald, then nerf either Herald's traits or nerf Glint. You'd only be killing build diversity further, making any core Rev builds unplayable by nerfing Mallyx or Shiro again.

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These nerfs are kind of sillyI was surprised to see that the rangers deer will still be hitting for roughly 4-5k with a 2s daze when thats not even a commanded attack.Im also surprised to see that birds were not touchedI am also surprised to see that dragon hunters were not touchedI am also surprised to see that revs were not touched

Im very surprised to see the cost of core shroud increase even by 1% while a life force generating tool was nerfed at the same time.For those saying that reaper deals too much damage its fact that core as of right now or even in the previous balance did more damage than reaper for a few reasons.

  • Its skills were harder to kite and have more range.
  • core has 4 damaging skills on its bar while reaper in its current condition only really has 3 skills that do damage on its bar

Reaper imo was already border lining on the ropes of insanity because of this. The draw back was suppose to be more cost for more damage yet I can take a power core build that does more damage than reaper does and do it from ranged which means it cant be kited as easily with generally better offensive and defensive utility in my kit.

So now core cost has gotten closer to reaper cost and will likely still do more damage with better utility whats the point of reaper even having the higher cost in its current state. Yes reaper has a single grand master that offers 300 more ferocity in shroud only but even with that my average soul spirals were rounding out to about 5-7k where as core shroud life transfer can do the same amount of damage from a farther distance while providing me life force return in the process.

The first 2 attacks of reaper shroud hit 1k or less while the 3rd attack gives a nice meaty 3k-4k on crit where as life blast can just pop some one for 3k (or more) at ranged

With reapers stability mostly nerfed to a very minimal 3s your odds of being stunned are practically the same (in most situations) as if you dont have it on core so thats not even worth the benefit. Running 3 core lines also offers more flexibility and safety for build experimentation with more damage or sustain where as reaper is suppose to zone you into that heavy cleave damage which it no longer has.

My issue here is that things were done totally backwards core became more risky to take despite it still having better general damage, flexibility, and utility than reaper now while reapers cost is still higher without having the meat behind its attacks "when it can get in close."

The death magic nerf was justified (no complaints on that)There was even a point where i would have considered a fear of death nerf justified but that was vanquished from my mind when other nerf to life force sustain came first. Now i think this is just overkill.

Expect to see lots of blood minion masters going forward cause thats one of the bigger complaints that was not touched along with those other things like ranger pets, dragon hunters, rev spirit aoe's, etc.

Anet even removed amulets with higher defensive stats and left in obnoxious runes like mad king and trapper rune that are out right busted on some professionsTrapper rune on condi ranger and dragon huntersMad king rune on Kalla Revs, and soulbeast on hit elite effects.

I had said that the nerfing patches were going in a decent direction but this one was so far off the mark its insane.

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