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How to PROPERLY handle lich form.


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I think Lich is largely fine, big cool down but also a big "focus me down" indicator especially if you can corrupt or remove the stab.

There's no problems having big "iWin" buttons as long as they're not frequent, overbearing, don't last too long and there is some counter to it. In this case LoS and generally running away for 10s will do the trick and they lose a lot of defence in Lich already.

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@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

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@youle.5824 said:To OP who posted this have you ever checked what were lich skills except 1? Cause lichs with brain use 1 with 2, which is bugged as instant cast cripple and makes kiting not as simple, and guess if nec has even a wee bit more brain cell he'll cc combo before lich and with lich 3 for more fear combo slash dmg, to land 2-3 guaranteed auto, which is still close to 10k on the meta carrion build. Im not saying lich cant be countered, just that it requires more than any other elite currently to counter and most nec you meet just go braindead spamming with no target in mind hence ez kiting in low rated game, in current nerfed state its as stupid as old rampage.

10 seconds every 3 minutes in a team of five, you get focused. If you didn't bring any condi cleanse to a lich fight, that's on you.

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

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@Malcastus.6240 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

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  • 4 months later...

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

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Necro have utilities that make attacks unblockeable. So blocks and reflects are not always the solution. That make the skill not OP but toxic.

Kite push you to leave the node (kiting spots are always out of the node), so it’s the button of run or die.

The only reliable solution are blind fields and/or hard quick CC but few classes can provide that on demand.

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I really dont know how people can defend this form for its damage with the excuse of 'just dodge' or 'just LoS'.I have seen a few Reapers running this elite going into shroud then straight to Lich to gain the quickness buff and blast off a few Deathly Claws before you can even react.

Personally I'd like to see a lower damage on the obnoxious skill Deathly Claws. Time of use of the skill as a result could be increased back to 15s use. If the damage is more reasonable then provide this skill with an additional bonus of damage reduction... If the idea is to keep it the same then give it a debuff where it takes more damage when hit.

Also do note the following:Damage in PvE is calculated with 772.5 weapon strength.Damage in PvP is calculated with 922.5 weapon strength.

These numbers are the wrong way round in terms of balance.. I thought PvP was meant to get the lower weapon power levels than PvE?

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Lich form is one of the most shit abilities in the game, the fact that so many people complain about it is a testament to the low skill level of the average player. Literally only good if you have 0 pressure on you (lol at high level play having 0 pressure on you as a necro) and people just stand there and allow themselves to be hit by it.

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@Smoosh.2718 said:I really dont know how people can defend this form for its damage with the excuse of 'just dodge' or 'just LoS'.I have seen a few Reapers running this elite going into shroud then straight to Lich to gain the quickness buff and blast off a few Deathly Claws before you can even react.

Personally I'd like to see a lower damage on the obnoxious skill Deathly Claws. Time of use of the skill as a result could be increased back to 15s use. If the damage is more reasonable then provide this skill with an additional bonus of damage reduction... If the idea is to keep it the same then give it a debuff where it takes more damage when hit.

Also do note the following:Damage in PvE is calculated with 772.5 weapon strength.Damage in PvP is calculated with 922.5 weapon strength.

These numbers are the wrong way round in terms of balance.. I thought PvP was meant to get the lower weapon power levels than PvE?

This is the biggest problem with the current iteration of reaper imo. The skill is really strong, but manageable normally, but the lightning-speed 6k (not an exaggeration) crits that hit you before you can react makes it frustrating.

@Majy.6792 said:Lich form is one of the most kitten abilities in the game, the fact that so many people complain about it is a testament to the low skill level of the average player. Literally only good if you have 0 pressure on you (lol at high level play having 0 pressure on you as a necro) and people just stand there and allow themselves to be hit by it.

Regardless of the skill level, it just isn't possible to keep pressure on somebody for the whole game. Reaper's survivability with shroud isn't terrible and they can keep the quickness from shroud when they enter lich form to get off 2-3 attacks that you can't do anything about.

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Lich form at this point is a cheese skill used once or twice a match.The cooldown on it is so long and it's too weak to compete against wanton condition spam.

Do people even use Lich much anymore?I know I keep it there as more of a "Do or die, push and contest mid" skill, which rarely happens if my team is doing well or doing even.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:Lich form at this point is a cheese skill used once or twice a match.The cooldown on it is so long and it's too weak to compete against wanton condition spam.

Do people even use Lich much anymore?I know I keep it there as more of a "Do or die, push and contest mid" skill, which rarely happens if my team is doing well or doing even.I like to use it for giggles, knowing that it'll cause someone somewhere to get angry or frustrated, even rage whisper. But otherwise, like the others, I got to say it's almost too weak in its current state, they definitely overnerfed it. So many ways to counter it... if you're still dying to Lich autos, I don't know what to even tell you at this point.

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@Arklite.4013 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

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@memausz.7264 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:Kite/LOS for 10 seconds. That's literally all. You're welcome.

Yeah but even condi scourges do 4K+ 1 Skill attacks with liche form and they are not geared up for power, that's a little too strong.They are clearly geared for power.

Carrion is a hybrid amulet with 900 power, 900 vita and 1200 condi damage. And they are doing that much damage because lich adds 1000 precision and the curses traitline grants them a lot of crit chance on top. So during lich their direct damage attributes are about the same as on any power build running paladin amulet and a traitine that improves crit chance.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:Kite/LOS for 10 seconds. That's literally all. You're welcome.

Yeah but even condi scourges do 4K+ 1 Skill attacks with liche form and they are not geared up for power, that's a little too strong.They are clearly geared for power.

Carrion is a hybrid amulet with 900 power, 900 vita and 1200 condi damage. And they are doing that much damage because lich adds 1000 precision and the curses traitline grants them a lot of crit chance on top. So during lich their direct damage attributes are about the same as on any power build running paladin amulet and a traitine that improves crit chance.

I wish my condi mirage was able to boom people for 5k, meanwhile im happy if I see 1k pop up. Such is life I guess.Well, unless we mean power necro, then its closer to 7k+ hits with the lich form, I think every class should have such ability that forces everyone to fuck off for 10s, I think it would be hella fun to play lol.

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:I tried it the other day. Spamming 4000+> @Axl.8924 said:

@Malcastus.6240 said:Lich auto attack needs a reduction in damage by at least 50%.

That in essence would prob delete lich. 50% is too big a nerf, especially for the cd it already has. You also run the risk of deleting core nec from SPVP completely.

50% would allow you to constantly spam 2000+ crits instead of 4000-5000+.Why would core suffer much from a grossly OP elite ability being adjusted? If you depend on something that is obviously broken, you're in for a lot of disappointment.

The lich has 5 skills. Nerf the broken one and buff the others.

You can't avoid the slowest-moving character in the game for literally 10 seconds once every three minutes, assuming they are only focusing on you? Says a lot about your skills, bro.

Sure I can, but giving someone a nuke and others a feather to fight with is bad balancing.

A nuke with a dozen options to avoid? On a class where any group with a cleanse/heal prof can just eliminate most of your non-lich damage? Cool story, bro.

PVP isn't only balanced around elite skills. But it is based on players with higher skill levels than you or I.

Reviving this ancient discussion just to tell you that this is a grossly facetious defense of an obviously broken skill (especially now that zerker reaper is meta)

A skill you might get to use twice a match? Sorry you can't figure out how to not be the only person in the match to die during the 15-30 seconds a match they pop lich. Got a gofundme page for that?

Rampage had an atrocious cooldown and it was still busted. The infrequency doesn't matter if it's a huge problem when it is used.

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@EremiteAngel.9765 said:The thing is, from what I've watched from the plat2-Legendary streams, it becomes a mind game of when to pop Lich.

Do you pop when your opponent has another necro around who can potentially corrupt and shut your lich down?Do you pop only after you have seen your opponents use up some of their projectile hates like DH F3 Shield or Weaver Anti Range AOE?Do you pop only when opponent has a down and you can Lich fear + spike when they are all too busy ressing or rotating out?Do you pop only when you have gained high ground and they can't shut you down that easily?

Lots of mind games.Sometimes you wait for them to pop their anti-Lich defenses, sometimes they wait for you to pop your Lich.There are many counters as others have said but it isn't always very straightforward.But I feel the ball is largely in the Necro's court.They pop at the right time, they win.

Necro general tankiness/sustain is fine in PvP at higher tiers where players know how to focus and lock down the necro.It is the Lich damage that needs a nerf.

Quickness and lich

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