How to excel in ranked

[Bast.7253]

Play some braindead condi build.

Like Condi herald and burn guard.

Profit.

In a dueling scenario this shit may not be a balancing issue, but when you're fighting for a point and you have a condi herald pulsing out 10 torment or a burn guard repeatedly and rapidly applying 10 stacks of burns, there is zero counterplay without a support, and before you know it, no matter how much condi cleanse you have, 2 of the 3 people you were at the point with have already been downed.

Unless you plan on creating a system to adjust matchmaking so that there is a designated condi cleanse/heal support class, or plan on doing something about these conditions, the game mode will continue to be a wasteland with little to no build diversity.

Also, aside from spirit watch or whatever it's called, Skyhammer has never had any business being in the ranked map pool. The map has always been cancer and favored certain builds over others.

Increasing resource costs, removing amulets, and reducing stacks of conditions by 1 whopping application does nothing but give the illusion of effort.

Who is my team focusing? The condi herald that's pumping out constant burning, torment, and poison? So the burn guard can lay down a fire field or pulse out 10 burns while the herald pops glint heal and resets? Are we focusing the burn guard waiting to get through multiple aegis procs and an elite that resets their virtues and makes them invulnerable. Do we focus the support tempest laying down lightning fields, healing everyone, cleansing conditions, and giving out shocking aura?

I get that you're not going to win every match, and that's fine, but to be forced to play something you DON'T WANT TO PLAY, just to be able to be semi-viable in a match against a comp of condi cheese classes that take minimal effort really makes for a poor experience.

In this particular scenario I was playing as a lr weaver, with minimal condi cleanse. So obviously I wasn't playing something optimal for that comp. It's just infuriating feeling like I'm over here playing a piano and someone else can press 3 buttons and wipe out my entire team, even if I manage to cleanse the first 3 waves of conditions.

Whether an individual is skilled or not, builds like these have entirely too much impact in team fights. Even if YOU can counter them or can anticipate them, there's a good chance you're playing with people who don't, or who are being focused and can't react fast enough to deal with it.

You can't control other people or play for them, and you can't tell them to switch builds, and you shouldn't have to.

Torment at least gives you the ability to stand still and reduce damage, but burning might as well be straight up power damage. You either cleanse it immediately, or you're dead. It's like this in pvp, in pve, in wvw. Burning in general needs to be reduced or reworked.

Please take a long hard look at these low risk high reward condition builds on more than a 1v1 or top 10% gameplay level.

And for the love of Joko, something needs to be done about burning. It's always been an issue, so I don't really expect it to change now.

[Kuma.1503]

You're playing LR weaver. Condi is a natural counter to you. It's a difficult build to play despite what forum posters will have you believe. By picking ele, you resign yourself to the fact that you will have to play the piano in order to be effective. You will have to put in more effort to gain the same value as other classes that press fewer buttons.

For some people, that challenge is the joy of playing ele. It gives you something to master. You'll able to relish the thrill of discovery time and time again with this class because there are so many things you can do with it. You take the good with the bad. If that isn't for you, I suggest class swapping to something more straight forward.

I don't doubt that you have the skill to play weaver, but based on what you're saying, perhaps you'd enjoy yourself more on a class with a lower apm requirement.

[Bast.7253]

@Kuma.1503 said:You're playing LR weaver. Condi is a natural counter to you. It's a difficult build to play despite what forum posters will have you believe. By picking ele, you resign yourself to the fact that you will have to play the piano in order to be effective. You will have to put in more effort to gain the same value as other classes that press fewer buttons.

For some people, that challenge is the joy of playing ele. It gives you something to master. You'll able to relish the thrill of discovery time and time again with this class because there are so many things you can do with it. You take the good with the bad. If that isn't for you, I suggest class swapping to something more straight forward.

I don't doubt that you have the skill to play weaver, but based on what you're saying, perhaps you'd enjoy yourself more on a class with a lower apm requirement.

It's less about the difficulty of weaver, which I enjoy playing, and more about the fact that it can be completely negated by far easier builds. And the fact that some builds have way too much group pressure.

[Kuma.1503]

Playing a difficult build does not render you immune to counterpicks. Even the most high skill classes have weaknesses. Fight a class that is well suited to take advantage of your weaknesses, easy or not and you're in for a bad time.

So long as viable user-friendly builds exist, this problem will not go away. You could get every one of those builds nerfed, but at what cost?

[Ryan.9387]

LR can hit top 25 and higher solo queue, so all I see is a l2p issue.

[Kuma.1503]

Seems less like a L2p issue, and more basic human psychology. No one likes feeling like they're putting in a bunch of effort, only to be thwarted by little Timmy, going full unga-bunga and not getting punished for it because the easiness of their build makes up for any perceived lack of skill.

You see this across all sorts of game genres.

[Bast.7253]

@Kuma.1503 said:Seems less like a L2p issue, and more basic human psychology. No one likes feeling like they're putting in a bunch of effort, only to be thwarted by little Timmy, going full unga-bunga and not getting punished for it because the easiness of their build makes up for any perceived lack of skill.

You see this across all sorts of game genres.

Not to mention, if someone is playing at the level that they're in the top 25, they're going to be there regardless of what they play. I never claimed to be the best, nor I expect to be. I'm just pointing out the rather obvious issues with certain builds and the current meta. But people that are desperate to make snide comments will always find a way.

Ele, unless specifically built for it, has always been lacking in condi cleanse though for sure. It's better than it used to be, but it's still a hassle to deal with.

[rng.1024]

Just don't teamfight in these situations, playing sides forces their team to split up.

If you see a burn guard, go scepter. Range is their hardcounter, no passive burning, telegraped AoE and you can lock it down easy with your current build.

Same with rev, kite up high and just freecast - he can't follow or do dmg.

If you however still want to melee, fighting on points against these are in general a bad idea. Try to kill them fast when you outnumber, rotate away if they come to duel you and use their slow movement speed to your advantage.

Straight up tell and show your team who to focus (burn guard), you defend close and tell them to hold mid, call for help if you are contested and join in the midfight every time nobody's coming. It's better to win the midfight than keeping close, this way you have backup going back.

You have alot of cleanse options, even when traited for none. Use your dodges wisely and chain cc them to avoid counterpressure. The moment you are out of vital cooldowns, start kiting away. It helps alot practicing against these builds on a duel server. Just don't commit to the node against your hardcounter, then it's better to join the teamfight instead always.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Play some braindead condi build.

Like Condi herald and burn guard.

Profit.

In a dueling scenario this kitten may not be a balancing issue, but when you're fighting for a point and you have a condi herald pulsing out 10 torment or a burn guard repeatedly and rapidly applying 10 stacks of burns, there is zero counterplay without a support, and before you know it, no matter how much condi cleanse you have, 2 of the 3 people you were at the point with have already been downed.

Unless you plan on creating a system to adjust matchmaking so that there is a designated condi cleanse/heal support class, or plan on doing something about these conditions, the game mode will continue to be a wasteland with little to no build diversity.

Also, aside from spirit watch or whatever it's called, Skyhammer has never had any business being in the ranked map pool. The map has always been cancer and favored certain builds over others.

Increasing resource costs, removing amulets, and reducing stacks of conditions by 1 whopping application does nothing but give the illusion of effort.

Who is my team focusing? The condi herald that's pumping out constant burning, torment, and poison? So the burn guard can lay down a fire field or pulse out 10 burns while the herald pops glint heal and resets? Are we focusing the burn guard waiting to get through multiple aegis procs and an elite that resets their virtues and makes them invulnerable. Do we focus the support tempest laying down lightning fields, healing everyone, cleansing conditions, and giving out shocking aura?

I get that you're not going to win every match, and that's fine, but to be forced to play something you DON'T WANT TO PLAY, just to be able to be semi-viable in a match against a comp of condi cheese classes that take minimal effort really makes for a poor experience.

In this particular scenario I was playing as a lr weaver, with minimal condi cleanse. So obviously I wasn't playing something optimal for that comp. It's just infuriating feeling like I'm over here playing a piano and someone else can press 3 buttons and wipe out my entire team, even if I manage to cleanse the first 3 waves of conditions.

Whether an individual is skilled or not, builds like these have entirely too much impact in team fights. Even if YOU can counter them or can anticipate them, there's a good chance you're playing with people who don't, or who are being focused and can't react fast enough to deal with it.

You can't control other people or play for them, and you can't tell them to switch builds, and you shouldn't have to.

Torment at least gives you the ability to stand still and reduce damage, but burning might as well be straight up power damage. You either cleanse it immediately, or you're dead. It's like this in pvp, in pve, in wvw. Burning in general needs to be reduced or reworked.

Please take a long hard look at these low risk high reward condition builds on more than a 1v1 or top 10% gameplay level.

And for the love of Joko, something needs to be done about burning. It's always been an issue, so I don't really expect it to change now.

I disagree with your position because PvP is fundamentally a team game. It's just inherently not designed for 5 man YoloQ (despite many forum goers believing it should be). So naturally any build that excels when your opponent does not have a support will be better in disorganized play that frequently has no support/bad support/bad team comp. Also, I'm generally against nerfing things that are excelling somewhat in YoloQ, but not doing well or aren't over represented/oppressive in top tier organized AT play, since nerfs on those specs would then decrease diversity at the highest organized levels (which is ultimately how the game is designed to be played).

So what are your options? Well, do the sensible thing and play the game as it's meant to be played; as a team. Or at least as much of a team as you can make. Find a friend for DuoQ, ideally one that can complement the holes in your spec (so in your case it sounds like you're in want of a support to help with condi cleanses). Second thing to do is to make sure you're calling target (and continuing to call it throughout the match) that way you can at least sort of co-ordinate with your 3 randoms. Make sure you and your DuoQ friend are focusing that target well; if you're calling target and your allies see that you guys are focusing they'll likely focus as well. And lastly, make sure to communicate important information like "It's a Burn Guard" in team chat. The sooner your team knows important things like that, the sooner they can make playstyle/focus fire changes to account for things like that. I know I really appreciate it when people give out information like that when they find out, as it definitely helps me change how I approach certain fights during the game.

[Math.5123]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Are we focusing the burn guard waiting to get through multiple aegis procs and an elite that resets their virtues and makes them invulnerable.

Are you actually saying 2 aegis are an issue in a teamfight? They have the active from f3, and maybe one more if they run shield. They also have a grand total of 1 stunbreak and no access to stability. Burst is all it has going for it.

Good job trying to make it seem as if it's tanky. This is just a massive l2p issue. Burn guard is as bad as it has always been.

[anduriell.6280]

The fact that rev can keep up constant 10 stacks of torment in 5 enemies at all times baffles me. there is no point to cleanse it because those are immediately reapplied.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@anduriell.6280 said:The fact that rev can keep up constant 10 stacks of torment in 5 enemies at all times baffles me. there is no point to cleanse it because those are immediately reapplied.

The highest amount of torment that rev can apply in a single application (not counting FoN condi transfer) is 4 with Echoing Eruption (12s CD). If you combine it with Embrace the Darkness upkeep then it can be 6 torment with 2 hits. If you're getting up to 10+ stacks of torment, cleansing it, and then getting back up to 10 stacks of torment again quickly then you're getting hit by a lot of attacks, most of which come from 240 radius/melee range.

So tips: don't stand near the condi rev as much as possible, since most of their damage comes from 240 radius or smaller. Evade their attacks, just like you would other classes. Kiting is your number 1 friend against them. Do these things well and you're not going to have 10 stacks of torment on you constantly. Also they're fairly vulnerable to CC, especially group chain CC. And boon rip is potent to get rid of their resistance, leaving them vulnerable to conditions.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Seems less like a L2p issue, and more basic human psychology. No one likes feeling like they're putting in a bunch of effort, only to be thwarted by little Timmy, going full unga-bunga and not getting punished for it because the easiness of their build makes up for any perceived lack of skill.

You see this across all sorts of game genres.

Not to mention, if someone is playing at the level that they're in the top 25, they're going to be there regardless of what they play. I never claimed to be the best, nor I expect to be. I'm just pointing out the rather obvious issues with certain builds and the current meta. But people that are desperate to make snide comments will always find a way.

Ele, unless specifically built for it, has always been lacking in condi cleanse though for sure. It's better than it used to be, but it's still a hassle to deal with.

Fire and water weaver aren't weak to condi. LR weaver is. But LR weaver can win fights that shut down fire and water weavers. It almost sounds like...balance, in a way.