Guardian as a whole compared to the rest.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ragnar.4257 said:FB wasn't picked by a single team in EU mAT, not a single one, and it was a total liability for all the NA teams that picked it, it was dying first every fight. NA just don't have much imagination and haven't yet woken up to the fact that it isn't 2019 anymore and FB kinda sucks now. Give it another month or two and they'll realise, and you won't see any being played anywhere. Pretty much all the top EU players who used to play FB have rerolled to Tempest or something else.

I'm going to shorten your answer:EU good. US plebs.

The good old, the region which does not play my meme build just has no clue defense. Works every time. Not sure everyone would agree, since the argument which region is better keeps flipping, but who am I to judge.

Also, let me quote you from January:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

• mAT is not Ranked. It's a very different game, since you've got 5 people on voice-comms who have practiced together and specifically chosen their classes for a particular purpose as part of a 5-man team. In general, in this scenario it's better to be super-specialised for one purpose, rather than playing a self-sufficient, jack-of-all-trades which is often better for solo-Q in ranked, where you can't rely on your team-mates.
• https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96282/the-meta-some-mat-numbers-for-you (Januray 26th, 2020)also in that jewel of a thread:

@Ragnar.4257 said:The FB numbers are waaaay higher in NA than in EU, especially when you look at the Duo numbers: 7 out of 18 NA teams were stacking FBs, while only 1 out of 23 EU teams did. FB is super-meta in NA, but is just one of the crowd in EU. You're 5x more likely to a face a double thief/DD in EU than you are a double FB, and nearly half of EU teams had no FB at all.

In short, the region which was seeing a lot less FB play pre nerf, sees even less post nerf. Who would have guessed?

@Ragnar.4257 said:I'm taking a break from FB for the next 3-4 months or however long it takes the plebs to catchup to reality, which might then allow some rework to make FB good again. Time to play some Tempest, or Rev, or condi-thief.

Good old Fotm re-roller, go for it. I never stated there are no other over performing builds, after all, most teams don't stack 1 class. Rev and thief remain very strong in, well everywhere when played well. That's mostly due to their mechanics not allowing for any in-between. The classes are either useless or op (in case of thief due to initiative mechanic, and for the rev due to not being able to change utility skills, both which make balancing a nightmare).

Is it possible to make comps which pressure a class down in mAT? Sure. Will that work in ranked just as well? Who knows. I doubt balance is done around only mAT, and if it did, some classes/elites like Soulbeast would like a word with the balance team.

@Ragnar.4257 said:FB was a victim of everyone band-waggoning it during the 2v2 season (where, yes, it was definitely over-performing), which resulted in it being over-nerfed for 5v5. It honestly would've been better to just ban it in 2v2 and leave it alone for 5v5.

It was over-performing in the previous 5v5 regular season as well. Want me to quote you from the earlier mentioned thread?

@Ragnar.4257 said:All of the above from a PvP perspective btw. WvW is a different beast, and PvE is a joke where builds don't matter anyway.

Turns out, there is 2 competitive game modes where players fight each other. WvW is one of them.

Here is what it boils down to:How represented is a class in all parts of the game mode? For pvp that's all tiers of ranked with maybe some consideration for mAT (if they differ greatly from what ranked play sees, there are a lot of classes strong in ranked PX+ which are not seen in mAT, ranger for one). Guardian sees a lot of representation overall. Does that make it mAT material? It did in one region.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I like how you addressed the 90% of the post about tomes and didn't just focus on one line about mATs.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I like how you addressed the 90% of the post about tomes and didn't just focus on one line about mATs.

What did you want me to address? Your comments about the condi not being high? The damage from condi FB begs to differ in a team setting. The fact you cant run condi in a mAT setting and thus reduce the effectiveness of the burn does not make the pull useless, nor the fact you don't consider dropping the tome of value (which makes 4 and 5 useful on a node or small area setting).

Absolute Resolution is run by literally every single support FB in WvW. Yes, it does not see use in pvp. Check the other game mode.Even after nerfs that's more condi clear than almost any other class has baseline without using traits or utilities (and that clear is group wide, not personal).

Didn't feel the need to mention those things. Your mind seemed made up on how useful the tomes are.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I like how you addressed the 90% of the post about tomes and didn't just focus on one line about mATs.

What did you want me to address? Your comments about the condi not being high? The damage from condi FB begs to differ in a team setting. The fact you cant run condi in a mAT setting and thus reduce the effectiveness of the burn does not make the pull useless, nor the fact you don't consider dropping the tome of value.

Absolute Resolution is run by literally every single support FB in WvW. Yes, it does not see use in pvp. Check the other game mode.Even after nerfs that's more condi clear than almost any other class has baseline without using traits or utilities (and that clear is group wide, not personal).

Didn't feel the need to mention those things. Your mind seemed made up on how useful the tomes are.

But your whole point was about how FB gets those things for "free" as "baseline" in their "class mechanic".

Yeah, FB can get big burns if it invests multiple traits. But that's not baseline is it?

Absolute Resolution, again, is not baseline. So why did you bring it up when talking about how much cleanse FB gets as baseline?

[Ragnar.4257]

@Cyninja.2954 said:All of these skills are available BASELINE and usually 2 times thanks to Renewed Focus. Please show me a single class in this game, which has access to all of these abilities without ANY commitment in traits, utilities, weapons slots or elite (elite only applies with Renewed Focus).

As a reminder.

This statement is factually incorrect, that is what I was calling out.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

All of these skills are available BASELINE and usually 2 times thanks to Renewed Focus.

Please show me a single class in this game, which has access to all of these abilities without ANY commitment in traits, utilities, weapons slots or elite (elite only applies with Renewed Focus).

As a reminder.

This statement is factually incorrect, that is what I was calling out.

True, I forgot Absolute Resolution is not seeing use in pvp while it is a mandatory trait for WvW squad/gvg). You got me, the tome 2 is not as overpowered but just very useful. This solves the entire issue with the class and the free access to utility at will.

EDIT: the statement remains true, since no other class HAS this amount of utility baseline, even if one aspect mentioned does require a trait. That does not make all the other points untrue since even without that one effect, the tomes remains strong.

I never said the condi from burning was ultra lethal, it's high enough though to pressure or assist the own team via either as cover condi or 2-3k damage per enemy payer hit without any condition damage.

[Ragnar.4257]

And yet despite all that utility, FB is very much out of the meta in EU, and mark my words will be going soon in NA.

Not just in tournaments either. FB is pretty rare in ranked now on EU, and I've had several times in ranked (P2) people ask me to swap class because FB is a liability.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ragnar.4257 said:And yet despite all that utility, FB is very much out of the meta in EU, and mark my words will be going soon in NA.

Not just in tournaments either. FB is pretty rare in ranked now on EU, and I've had several times in ranked (P2) people ask me to swap class because FB is a liability.

Sure, let's wait and see then shall we.

[Arken.3725]

We witnessed quite a few interesting builds in the qualifiers. There's nothing to see, we already saw it @Cyninja.2954. This discussion was to maintain what Guardian has(not) in comparison to the rest. I've made my claim and backed it up with actual skills/traits to empower(no pun intended lol) my argument further.

Edit: I have no issue's what-so-ever addressing specific instances where people may find certain mechanics to be unforgiving or too rewarding. That's what this is about. I have all the information at my finger-tips and in my mind(over 16,000 games played as Guardian).

[Ragnar.4257]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ragnar.4257" said:And yet despite all that utility, FB is very much out of the meta in EU, and mark my words will be going soon in NA.

Not just in tournaments either. FB is pretty rare in ranked now on EU, and I've had several times in ranked (P2) people ask me to swap class because FB is a liability.

Sure, let's wait and see then shall we.

Tick Tock Tick Tock time to wake up NA. The one game that either T-USA or D-USA are able to get more than 300 points against R55 is, surprise, the one game they swap out FB for Tempest.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/643999119

Listen to explanation at 08:24:00 in the above.

And listen to explanation at 54:50 here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/644436838

FB simply does not have the tools to deal with being focused. Time and again in the tournament you see FB getting trained down first in fights. Because really all it can do to defend itself is F3->RF->F3. That will keep you alive for 10 seconds. After that? Free kill. It doesn't have the disengages or the hard-invulnerabilities to deal with those situations (yes yes yes, RF...... on 105s CD........ compared to Obsidian Flesh on 50s CD + Mistform on 60s CD)

FB only gets value if 2 things happen simultaneously:

1) Both teams commit to 4v4/5v5 head-on team-fight2) The other team doesn't hard-focus the FB

As soon as fights start devolving into 1v1s and 2v2s spread around the map, FB value drops way off, and due to how slow it is it is very vulnerable to getting picked off alone 1v2.

Now, I'm not saying FB is weak and needs buffs, but it would really be nice if NA could wake up to the fact that it isn't 2019 anymore and FB isn't actually a must-pick because it's so "super-OP". It's fairly average in the current meta, stop worshiping it as god-mode.

[otto.5684]

@Ragnar.4257 Ya... since Anet removed most of the healing from the heal mantra and deleted mantra of truth, there is little FB offers. Sage has the damage but very weak sustainability and no cover condis. Menders does not really do much beside CC, aegis and missile reflect. None of this is useful enough in my opinion. It is not bad, but surely is not worth playing competitively. There are better builds. If it gets anymore nerfs in PvP core will be the best build. That will be full circle LMAO.

[Arken.3725]

Best ever my friends.....ever.

[Ragnarox.9601]

they killed mantras thus they killed my fb with it. I hope it gets better in next xpac(dont think so)....I am not playing it until then. waiting for wow shadowlands and playing swtor now.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Ragnarox.9601 said:they killed mantras thus they killed my fb with it. I hope it gets better in next xpac(dont think so)....I am not playing it until then. waiting for wow shadowlands and playing swtor now.

Barrier should had been firebrand mainly if not only class alowedthat lvl of protection.

They could even had traited blocks to give small barriers, burn cleanse woould lead also to a small barrier, while some mantra to give barrier to allies.scourge should be more towards condi control condi cleanse and debuffing.

[Kulvar.1239]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Ragnarox.9601 said:they killed mantras thus they killed my fb with it. I hope it gets better in next xpac(dont think so)....I am not playing it until then. waiting for wow shadowlands and playing swtor now.

Barrier should had been firebrand mainly if not only class alowedthat lvl of protection.

They could even had traited blocks to give small barriers, burn cleanse woould lead also to a small barrier, while some mantra to give barrier to allies.scourge should be more towards condi control condi cleanse and debuffing.

Scourge barrier makes total sense.

[RUNICBLACK.7630]

I myself had no complaints against the Scourge's access to Barrier, nor the Weaver but alot of people thought that Barrier would be part of the Firebrand elite and then when it was found that it wasn't were left really confused with what classes then did gain access to it it. Case in point : The Scrapper ( I at least can kind of rationalize considering the debacle that were the Gryo's) , the Core Elementalist ( kind of shaky ground but at least it is an Earth based bundle , still iffy), Core Ranger, Revenant, Engineer, and on the Warrior's Warhorn (the last one really makes no sense).This is why so many were left wondering why Barrier wasn't part of the Firebrand package but it reminds me personally of the introduction of Resistance from HoT where it took 2 years before they gave the Guardian Shout "Save Yourselves!" access to it(where without it any use of it in a Zerg or a heavy condition fight was a quick trip to dead or down state generally) but they gave the Warriors "Healing Signet" access to right as it was brought into the game with the expansion itself.Surprisingly some of the main complaints against the FB could have been easily taken care of by giving the FB access to Barrier , cut the true healing down but replace it with Barrier which has it's own downside by the fact that healing like effect vanishes in 5 seconds but unfortunately they failed to see this .

[Aeolus.3615]

@Ragnar.4257

Ive been talking with some players once in a while here in NA and many think the best by far regen and heals values are from ministrel Firebrands, that's how the FB is been seing here in NA, whatever the game is.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 aply barrier after block or by transforming burn into barrier imo would be a good theme for firebrand, what we have on wvw is tons of barrier zergs due how scourge can be build for condi and barrier and aoe spam due their numbers its a bit nut the gameplay, and with the quickness from Quickbrand(should be more actually the name of the class since its more used to quickness than use bruns for something....)Even using condi stats core or DH fire usage is more usefull than in a firebrand...

If theres some awfull designed classes its DH(bit useless, traps were made to dps carry with daze on traps) and scourge(the zerger aoe spam dream class), and firebrand feels out of theme, its nothing else but a boob spammer, burn stuff isnt used.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Aeolus.3615 said:its nothing else but a boob spammer

I want to play this class :trollface: .

[Aeolus.3615]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:its nothing else but a boob spammer

I want to play this class :trollface: .

I am closed at home for quite some months working remotely and all my fun is playing this game while outmaned, brain starts to prank me...